Correcting Metaverse Time

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Correcting Metaverse Time

Robert Klein
Hey Everyone,
 
I was wondering why we continue to use SL (PST) time in our wonderful OpenSim universe instead of GMT/UTC? What would it take to set our own standalone opensims for another timezone?
 
Thanks,
 
-Robert

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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Fish_Kungfu
Seems to me UTC would be the best choice.
Cheers...Fish


On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Robert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hey Everyone,
 
I was wondering why we continue to use SL (PST) time in our wonderful OpenSim universe instead of GMT/UTC? What would it take to set our own standalone opensims for another timezone?
 
Thanks,
 
-Robert

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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Ai Austin
In reply to this post by Robert Klein
At 05:06 19/01/2009, [hidden email] wrote:
>I was wondering why we continue to use SL (PST) time in our wonderful
>OpenSim universe instead of GMT/UTC? What would it take to set our own
>standalone opensims for another timezone?


I would vote for UTC... and cakll it that rather GMT wh ich happens
to equal UTC.  We are international after all :-)


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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Robert Klein
Justin what do you think? Where do we start to make this happen?

Cheers,

-Robert

Ai Austin wrote
At 05:06 19/01/2009, opensim-users-request@lists.berlios.de wrote:
>I was wondering why we continue to use SL (PST) time in our wonderful
>OpenSim universe instead of GMT/UTC? What would it take to set our own
>standalone opensims for another timezone?


I would vote for UTC... and cakll it that rather GMT wh ich happens
to equal UTC.  We are international after all :-)


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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Charles Krinke-3
In reply to this post by Robert Klein

Let me weigh in a little bit.

There are a number of use cases for OpenSim. Some of them are either sims-in-boxes or walled gardens where the sim/grid owner would like to do 'their own thing' with respect to timezone notions.

But, for the purposes of this discussion, I think we are contemplating those standalones, grids and HyperGrid connections where having everything public in the Metaverse is on the same timezone.

This has an effect on events, scripts, assets, textures and other. Basically everything where the concept of NOW() is important.

As we build out our part of the Metaverse with OpenSim, it seems that having a standardized time helps us all and I get the impression that most folks would favor UTC/GMT as the standard time for the OpenSim Metaverse.

Charles


From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 1:01:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time


Justin what do you think? Where do we start to make this happen?

Cheers,

-Robert


Ai Austin wrote:

>
> At 05:06 19/01/2009, [hidden email] wrote:
>>I was wondering why we continue to use SL (PST) time in our wonderful
>>OpenSim universe instead of GMT/UTC? What would it take to set our own
>>standalone opensims for another timezone?
>
>
> I would vote for UTC... and cakll it that rather GMT wh ich happens
> to equal UTC.  We are international after all :-)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>

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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Robert Klein
I completely agree with you Charles. It is one of those things that just seems to make sense. I can see why Linden Labs settled on PST in the very early stages, but it doesn't really work in the long run for a global massively hypergridded metaverse... ooh sorry that was a mouthful.

-Robert

Charles Krinke wrote

Let me weigh in a little bit.

There are a number of use cases for OpenSim. Some of them are either sims-in-boxes or walled gardens where the sim/grid owner would like to do 'their own thing' with respect to timezone notions.

But, for the purposes of this discussion, I think we are contemplating those standalones, grids and HyperGrid connections where having everything public in the Metaverse is on the same timezone.

This has an effect on events, scripts, assets, textures and other. Basically everything where the concept of NOW() is important.

As we build out our part of the Metaverse with OpenSim, it seems that having a standardized time helps us all and I get the impression that most folks would favor UTC/GMT as the standard time for the OpenSim Metaverse.

Charles



________________________________
From: Robert Klein <rtkwebman@gmail.com>
To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 1:01:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time


Justin what do you think? Where do we start to make this happen?

Cheers,

-Robert


Ai Austin wrote:
>
> At 05:06 19/01/2009, opensim-users-request@lists.berlios.de wrote:
>>I was wondering why we continue to use SL (PST) time in our wonderful
>>OpenSim universe instead of GMT/UTC? What would it take to set our own
>>standalone opensims for another timezone?
>
>
> I would vote for UTC... and cakll it that rather GMT wh ich happens
> to equal UTC.  We are international after all :-)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Correcting-Metaverse-Time-tp2179635p2183427.html
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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Charles Krinke-3
In reply to this post by Robert Klein
Certainly, those running grids and major standalones that are HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any additional prompting from us, and I have already done this with those I can directly influence.

Now that we seem heading towards some semblance of a consensus, let me open two itty-bitty "Pandora's Boxen" that others have described to me.

But, there are sims running in folks homes and on servers where for other then OpenSim reasons, these folks wish the server (or desktop computer in some cases) to run on the local timezone, where ever it is. These reasons run from needing mail programs like Outlook to work correctly. These folks end up at a disadvantage unless we can tell them how to ensure their OpenSim clock is on UTC.

Another issue is that the SL client itself seems to favor PST, so we have client perceptions to deal with. Although as other clients gain some wider use, this issue is likely to resolve itself over time.

I would not want either of these to stop a movement towards an OpenSim Metaverse timezone, but, these are the two major issues that folks have discussed with me that currently cause them angst.

With the highest respect to this illustrious group,

Charles Krinke


From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 1:32:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time


I completely agree with you Charles. It is one of those things that just
seems to make sense. I can see why Linden Labs settled on PST in the very
early stages, but it doesn't really work in the long run for a global
massively hypergridded metaverse... ooh sorry that was a mouthful.

-Robert


Charles Krinke wrote:

>
>
>
> Let me weigh in a little bit.
>
> There are a number of use cases for OpenSim. Some of them are either
> sims-in-boxes or walled gardens where the sim/grid owner would like to do
> 'their own thing' with respect to timezone notions.
>
> But, for the purposes of this discussion, I think we are contemplating
> those standalones, grids and HyperGrid connections where having everything
> public in the Metaverse is on the same timezone.
>
> This has an effect on events, scripts, assets, textures and other.
> Basically everything where the concept of NOW() is important.
>
> As we build out our part of the Metaverse with OpenSim, it seems that
> having a standardized time helps us all and I get the impression that most
> folks would favor UTC/GMT as the standard time for the OpenSim Metaverse.
>
> Charles
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 1:01:06 PM
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time
>
>
> Justin what do you think? Where do we start to make this happen?
>
> Cheers,
>
> -Robert
>
>
> Ai Austin wrote:
>>
>> At 05:06 19/01/2009, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>I was wondering why we continue to use SL (PST) time in our wonderful
>>>OpenSim universe instead of GMT/UTC? What would it take to set our own
>>>standalone opensims for another timezone?
>>
>>
>> I would vote for UTC... and cakll it that rather GMT wh ich happens
>> to equal UTC.  We are international after all :-)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>
>>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/Correcting-Metaverse-Time-tp2179635p2183427.html
> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>

--
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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Frank W Sweet
Charles Krinke wrote: "those running grids and major standalones that
are HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any
additional prompting from us..."

Umm. How? The "time" function was removed from the [sun] section of
opensim.ini because it had no effect.

Frank W Sweet
Backintyme Publishing

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Krinke" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time


Certainly, those running grids and major standalones that are
HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any additional
prompting from us, and I have already done this with those I can
directly influence.

Now that we seem heading towards some semblance of a consensus, let me
open two itty-bitty "Pandora's Boxen" that others have described to
me.

But, there are sims running in folks homes and on servers where for
other then OpenSim reasons, these folks wish the server (or desktop
computer in some cases) to run on the local timezone, where ever it
is. These reasons run from needing mail programs like Outlook to work
correctly. These folks end up at a disadvantage unless we can tell
them how to ensure their OpenSim clock is on UTC.

Another issue is that the SL client itself seems to favor PST, so we
have client perceptions to deal with. Although as other clients gain
some wider use, this issue is likely to resolve itself over time.

I would not want either of these to stop a movement towards an OpenSim
Metaverse timezone, but, these are the two major issues that folks
have discussed with me that currently cause them angst.

With the highest respect to this illustrious group,

Charles Krinke


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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Robert Klein
In reply to this post by Charles Krinke-3
I see what you mean Charles and maybe the need is to mimic our current planet by settling on a Metaversal Time as the starting point (MTC or UTC) and leave open the path for supporting local time zones for local needs? We have multiple time zones in RL with a single and sensible starting point. Right now the SLT standard just doesn't seem like a good starting point since nobody else references it. You mention setting simulators to local time, does that also show up correctly in the viewer? Is there some tweak to the OpenSim software, the viewer, or is it just a matter of setting the server time? Maybe have a setting in the viewr to show either local or MTC?

While we are on the subject, what about setting a day that the metaverse started? RL has A.D. and B.C., what about this new universe having some sort of starting point to celebrate? Maybe the first birthday of OpenSim? The second? What do we call it? In the future there may very well be a need to reference the start of it all... just a thought. :)

-Robert


<quote author="Charles Krinke">
Certainly, those running grids and major standalones that are
HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any additional
prompting from us, and I have already done this with those I can
directly influence.

Now that we seem heading towards some semblance of a consensus, let me open two itty-bitty "Pandora's Boxen" that others have described to me.

But, there are sims running in folks homes and on servers where for other then OpenSim reasons, these folks wish the server (or desktop computer in some cases) to run on the local timezone, where ever it is. These reasons run from needing mail programs like Outlook to work correctly. These folks end up at a disadvantage unless we can tell them how to ensure their OpenSim clock is on UTC.

Another issue is that the SL client itself seems to favor PST, so we have client perceptions to deal with. Although as other clients gain some wider use, this issue is likely to resolve itself over time.

I would not want either of these to stop a movement towards an OpenSim Metaverse timezone, but, these are the two major issues that folks have discussed with me that currently cause them angst.

With the highest respect to this illustrious group,

Charles Krinke

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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Charles Krinke-3
In reply to this post by Robert Klein
I think the day the Metaverse started can be considered as "epoch time", that is, the number of seconds since 1/1/1970. However, that is not the issue.

One issue is that when events on a grid are setup on the grid's timezone, a region might be on a different timezone and a client might be hard-coded to PST. So getting folks to attend an event gets challenging if all regions on a grid are not on the same "clock".

Additionally, there are scripts that read the underlying clock on the server for a region. In a heterogeneous Metaverse where adjacent sims on a grid might be on opposite sides of the planet, one can see that writing a time for an event, or a script event would then be interpreted differently by a sim on the same timezone as the UGAIM, compared to a sim on a different timezone, *or* a HyperGridded region on a third time zone.

So, it can get messy. Which is why we brought it up, so we could think about it a little bit.

Charles


From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 3:25:26 PM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time


I see what you mean Charles and maybe the need is to mimic our current planet
by settling on a Metaversal Time as the starting point (MTC or UTC) and
leave open the path for supporting local time zones for local needs? We have
multiple time zones in RL with a single and sensible starting point. Right
now the SLT standard just doesn't seem like a good starting point since
nobody else references it. You mention setting simulators to local time,
does that also show up correctly in the viewer? Is there some tweak to the
OpenSim software, the viewer, or is it just a matter of setting the server
time? Maybe have a setting in the viewr to show either local or MTC?

While we are on the subject, what about setting a day that the metaverse
started? RL has A.D. and B.C., what about this new universe having some sort
of starting point to celebrate? Maybe the first birthday of OpenSim? The
second? What do we call it? In the future there may very well be a need to
reference the start of it all... just a thought. :)

-Robert



Certainly, those running grids and major standalones that are
HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any additional
prompting from us, and I have already done this with those I can
directly influence.

Now that we seem heading towards some semblance of a consensus, let me open
two itty-bitty "Pandora's Boxen" that others have described to me.

But, there are sims running in folks homes and on servers where for other
then OpenSim reasons, these folks wish the server (or desktop computer in
some cases) to run on the local timezone, where ever it is. These reasons
run from needing mail programs like Outlook to work correctly. These folks
end up at a disadvantage unless we can tell them how to ensure their OpenSim
clock is on UTC.

Another issue is that the SL client itself seems to favor PST, so we have
client perceptions to deal with. Although as other clients gain some wider
use, this issue is likely to resolve itself over time.

I would not want either of these to stop a movement towards an OpenSim
Metaverse timezone, but, these are the two major issues that folks have
discussed with me that currently cause them angst.

With the highest respect to this illustrious group,

Charles Krinke


--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Correcting-Metaverse-Time-tp2179635p2184058.html
Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Charles Krinke-3
In reply to this post by Robert Klein
Frank:

The issue came up with respect to implementing "events". Someone else indicated that certain scripts that use the underlying servers time with LSL calls would be affected.

So, it isnt a sun issue so much as a side affect on co-ordinating things from region to region with events, scripts and similar.

Charles


From: Frank W Sweet <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:01:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time

Charles Krinke wrote: "those running grids and major standalones that
are HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any
additional prompting from us..."

Umm. How? The "time" function was removed from the [sun] section of
opensim.ini because it had no effect.

Frank W Sweet
Backintyme Publishing

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Krinke" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time


Certainly, those running grids and major standalones that are
HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any additional
prompting from us, and I have already done this with those I can
directly influence.

Now that we seem heading towards some semblance of a consensus, let me
open two itty-bitty "Pandora's Boxen" that others have described to
me.

But, there are sims running in folks homes and on servers where for
other then OpenSim reasons, these folks wish the server (or desktop
computer in some cases) to run on the local timezone, where ever it
is. These reasons run from needing mail programs like Outlook to work
correctly. These folks end up at a disadvantage unless we can tell
them how to ensure their OpenSim clock is on UTC.

Another issue is that the SL client itself seems to favor PST, so we
have client perceptions to deal with. Although as other clients gain
some wider use, this issue is likely to resolve itself over time.

I would not want either of these to stop a movement towards an OpenSim
Metaverse timezone, but, these are the two major issues that folks
have discussed with me that currently cause them angst.

With the highest respect to this illustrious group,

Charles Krinke


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https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Robert Klein
Hmm, any meeting or event that I have attended on this planet is generally formatted in the timezone of the host venue. Anyone attending just has to deal with it. What about each simulator uses the timezone of whatever the admin chooses and each viewer simply runs in the timezone of the user's computer? Scripts could therefore depend on that model and adjust themselves accordingly. What about a toggle or on/off tick in the viewer? Would it even need one?

Remember, 2-5 years from now hopefully we will not be depending on the SL viewer as a stop-gap but instead be using the strengths of our own.

-Robert


Charles Krinke wrote
Frank:

The issue came up with respect to implementing "events". Someone else indicated that certain scripts that use the underlying servers time with LSL calls would be affected.

So, it isnt a sun issue so much as a side affect on co-ordinating things from region to region with events, scripts and similar.

Charles




________________________________
From: Frank W Sweet <fwsweet@backintyme.com>
To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:01:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time

Charles Krinke wrote: "those running grids and major standalones that
are HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any
additional prompting from us..."

Umm. How? The "time" function was removed from the [sun] section of
opensim.ini because it had no effect.

Frank W Sweet
Backintyme Publishing

----- Original Message -----
From: "Charles Krinke" <cfk@pacbell.net>
To: <opensim-users@lists.berlios.de>
Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:46 PM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time


Certainly, those running grids and major standalones that are
HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any additional
prompting from us, and I have already done this with those I can
directly influence.

Now that we seem heading towards some semblance of a consensus, let me
open two itty-bitty "Pandora's Boxen" that others have described to
me.

But, there are sims running in folks homes and on servers where for
other then OpenSim reasons, these folks wish the server (or desktop
computer in some cases) to run on the local timezone, where ever it
is. These reasons run from needing mail programs like Outlook to work
correctly. These folks end up at a disadvantage unless we can tell
them how to ensure their OpenSim clock is on UTC.

Another issue is that the SL client itself seems to favor PST, so we
have client perceptions to deal with. Although as other clients gain
some wider use, this issue is likely to resolve itself over time.

I would not want either of these to stop a movement towards an OpenSim
Metaverse timezone, but, these are the two major issues that folks
have discussed with me that currently cause them angst.

With the highest respect to this illustrious group,

Charles Krinke


_______________________________________________
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Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Fish_Kungfu
Same for me, Robert.  Google Calendar works the same way. I just choose my time-zone.  Why not have the viewer show UTC and the local time of the user, just to help the user be able to see the Universal Grid Time at a glance?  All grid serverscould keep their time set by a reliable ntp server and passed on to the viewer/client.

Also, in the future, the viewer could very likely simply be a web browser, but I don't want to get too far off topic.

~~Fish~~


On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Robert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hmm, any meeting or event that I have attended on this planet is generally
formatted in the timezone of the host venue. Anyone attending just has to
deal with it. What about each simulator uses the timezone of whatever the
admin chooses and each viewer simply runs in the timezone of the user's
computer? Scripts could therefore depend on that model and adjust themselves
accordingly. What about a toggle or on/off tick in the viewer? Would it even
need one?

Remember, 2-5 years from now hopefully we will not be depending on the SL
viewer as a stop-gap but instead be using the strengths of our own.

-Robert



Charles Krinke wrote:
>
> Frank:
>
> The issue came up with respect to implementing "events". Someone else
> indicated that certain scripts that use the underlying servers time with
> LSL calls would be affected.
>
> So, it isnt a sun issue so much as a side affect on co-ordinating things
> from region to region with events, scripts and similar.
>
> Charles
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Frank W Sweet <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:01:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time
>
> Charles Krinke wrote: "those running grids and major standalones that
> are HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any
> additional prompting from us..."
>
> Umm. How? The "time" function was removed from the [sun] section of
> opensim.ini because it had no effect.
>
> Frank W Sweet
> Backintyme Publishing
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Krinke" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time
>
>
> Certainly, those running grids and major standalones that are
> HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any additional
> prompting from us, and I have already done this with those I can
> directly influence.
>
> Now that we seem heading towards some semblance of a consensus, let me
> open two itty-bitty "Pandora's Boxen" that others have described to
> me.
>
> But, there are sims running in folks homes and on servers where for
> other then OpenSim reasons, these folks wish the server (or desktop
> computer in some cases) to run on the local timezone, where ever it
> is. These reasons run from needing mail programs like Outlook to work
> correctly. These folks end up at a disadvantage unless we can tell
> them how to ensure their OpenSim clock is on UTC.
>
> Another issue is that the SL client itself seems to favor PST, so we
> have client perceptions to deal with. Although as other clients gain
> some wider use, this issue is likely to resolve itself over time.
>
> I would not want either of these to stop a movement towards an OpenSim
> Metaverse timezone, but, these are the two major issues that folks
> have discussed with me that currently cause them angst.
>
> With the highest respect to this illustrious group,
>
> Charles Krinke
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>

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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Stefan Andersson
Also, I believe we could just add local server time and current UTC ('metaverse time') to something like the 'about' box text, if people want to make sure.
 
As I understand it,
 
all times shown to users could and should be specified with timezone. The client does this, and there should be no problem converting from UTC to PST/PDT in the protocol endpoints if the client would need us to.
 
In regards to scripts, lsl still have a fairly good number of functions separating 'server time'/'pst' and 'gmt'/'utc';
 
llGetDate uses UTC
llGetWallclock returns the server time.
llGetGMTclock gets GMT, which essentially is UTC
 
I might just be naive, but I don't see the problem with UTC. Could we have a problem scenario detailed out?

Best regards,
Stefan Andersson
Tribal Media AB




Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 23:17:00 -0500
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time

Same for me, Robert.  Google Calendar works the same way. I just choose my time-zone.  Why not have the viewer show UTC and the local time of the user, just to help the user be able to see the Universal Grid Time at a glance?  All grid serverscould keep their time set by a reliable ntp server and passed on to the viewer/client.

Also, in the future, the viewer could very likely simply be a web browser, but I don't want to get too far off topic.

~~Fish~~



On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Robert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hmm, any meeting or event that I have attended on this planet is generally
formatted in the timezone of the host venue. Anyone attending just has to
deal with it. What about each simulator uses the timezone of whatever the
admin chooses and each viewer simply runs in the timezone of the user's
computer? Scripts could therefore depend on that model and adjust themselves
accordingly. What about a toggle or on/off tick in the viewer? Would it even
need one?

Remember, 2-5 years from now hopefully we will not be depending on the SL
viewer as a stop-gap but instead be using the strengths of our own.

-Robert



Charles Krinke wrote:

>
> Frank:
>
> The issue came up with respect to implementing "events". Someone else
> indicated that certain scripts that use the underlying servers time with
> LSL calls would be affected.
>
> So, it isnt a sun issue so much as a side affect on co-ordinating things
> from region to region with events, scripts and similar.
>
> Charles
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Frank W Sweet <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:01:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time
>
> Charles Krinke wrote: "those running grids and major standalones that
> are HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any
> additional prompting from us..."
>
> Umm. How? The "time" function was removed from the [sun] section of
> opensim.ini because it had no effect.
>
> Frank W Sweet
> Backintyme Publishing
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Krinke" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time
>
>
> Certainly, those running grids and major standalones that are
> HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any additional
> prompting from us, and I have already done this with those I can
> directly influence.
>
> Now that we seem heading towards some semblance of a consensus, let me
> open two itty-bitty "Pandora's Boxen" that others have described to
> me.
>
> But, there are sims running in folks homes and on servers where for
> other then OpenSim reasons, these folks wish the server (or desktop
> computer in some cases) to run on the local timezone, where ever it
> is. These reasons run from needing mail programs like Outlook to work
> correctly. These folks end up at a disadvantage unless we can tell
> them how to ensure their OpenSim clock is on UTC.
>
> Another issue is that the SL client itself seems to favor PST, so we
> have client perceptions to deal with. Although as other clients gain
> some wider use, this issue is likely to resolve itself over time.
>
> I would not want either of these to stop a movement towards an OpenSim
> Metaverse timezone, but, these are the two major issues that folks
> have discussed with me that currently cause them angst.
>
> With the highest respect to this illustrious group,
>
> Charles Krinke
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>

--
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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Ai Austin
In reply to this post by Robert Klein
At 04:17 20/01/2009, Robert Klein wrote:
>Hmm, any meeting or event that I have attended on this planet is generally
>formatted in the timezone of the host venue. Anyone attending just has to
>deal with it. What about each simulator uses the timezone of whatever the
>admin chooses and each viewer simply runs in the timezone of the user's
>computer? Scripts could therefore depend on that model and adjust themselves
>accordingly. What about a toggle or on/off tick in the viewer? Would it even
>need one?


As someone who regularly does telecons and collaborates on projects
between 2 continents, and sometimes 3, some with participants on time
zones that are on the half hour (!)  I can tell you that agreement on
a synced clock is VERY valuable. And avoidance of summer time clock
shift issues which vary on date of shift across the
world.  PST/PDT/SLT shifts to pacific summer time when the USA
does!  And GMT/UTC fits the bill.  When stating deadlines and action
items for work going on round the world, its essential to state the
time zone within the time stamp. We usually use the Zulu (i.e.
UTC/GMT) Internet date/time formats to stamp planning action items.

On my collaboration centre walls in SL and Opensim we put up local
time clock to help all the particular... more on that shortly
(perhaps in a  mantis) as my old IBM Wallclock brought over from SL
(where it works very responsibly) with its one second event timer
brings my Opensim server setup to its knees with event queue overload
past 300 queued events, and a massive time of execution level... just
for ONE clock.  Wheres on SL I have dozens of these clocks on a single sim.


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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Charles Krinke-3
In reply to this post by Robert Klein
Well, maybe I am having trouble getting it, Stefan.

A few days ago, there were several multi-hour, heated discussions about how the timezones of different servers would make events and scripts malfunction.

Personally, I have been using UTC since the 1970's and GMT before that in communicating around this rock, so I dont get the flap and just use UTC/GMT, but it seems an important subject to others.

Charles


From: Stefan Andersson <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 12:53:04 AM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time

Also, I believe we could just add local server time and current UTC ('metaverse time') to something like the 'about' box text, if people want to make sure.
 
As I understand it,
 
all times shown to users could and should be specified with timezone. The client does this, and there should be no problem converting from UTC to PST/PDT in the protocol endpoints if the client would need us to.
 
In regards to scripts, lsl still have a fairly good number of functions separating 'server time'/'pst' and 'gmt'/'utc';
 
llGetDate uses UTC
llGetWallclock returns the server time.
llGetGMTclock gets GMT, which essentially is UTC
 
I might just be naive, but I don't see the problem with UTC. Could we have a problem scenario detailed out?

Best regards,
Stefan Andersson
Tribal Media AB




Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 23:17:00 -0500
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time

Same for me, Robert.  Google Calendar works the same way. I just choose my time-zone.  Why not have the viewer show UTC and the local time of the user, just to help the user be able to see the Universal Grid Time at a glance?  All grid serverscould keep their time set by a reliable ntp server and passed on to the viewer/client.

Also, in the future, the viewer could very likely simply be a web browser, but I don't want to get too far off topic.

~~Fish~~



On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 10:36 PM, Robert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hmm, any meeting or event that I have attended on this planet is generally
formatted in the timezone of the host venue. Anyone attending just has to
deal with it. What about each simulator uses the timezone of whatever the
admin chooses and each viewer simply runs in the timezone of the user's
computer? Scripts could therefore depend on that model and adjust themselves
accordingly. What about a toggle or on/off tick in the viewer? Would it even
need one?

Remember, 2-5 years from now hopefully we will not be depending on the SL
viewer as a stop-gap but instead be using the strengths of our own.

-Robert



Charles Krinke wrote:

>
> Frank:
>
> The issue came up with respect to implementing "events". Someone else
> indicated that certain scripts that use the underlying servers time with
> LSL calls would be affected.
>
> So, it isnt a sun issue so much as a side affect on co-ordinating things
> from region to region with events, scripts and similar.
>
> Charles
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Frank W Sweet <[hidden email]>
> To: [hidden email]
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 2:01:15 PM
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time
>
> Charles Krinke wrote: "those running grids and major standalones that
> are HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any
> additional prompting from us..."
>
> Umm. How? The "time" function was removed from the [sun] section of
> opensim.ini because it had no effect.
>
> Frank W Sweet
> Backintyme Publishing
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Charles Krinke" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 4:46 PM
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time
>
>
> Certainly, those running grids and major standalones that are
> HyperGridded can easily set their sims to UTC without any additional
> prompting from us, and I have already done this with those I can
> directly influence.
>
> Now that we seem heading towards some semblance of a consensus, let me
> open two itty-bitty "Pandora's Boxen" that others have described to
> me.
>
> But, there are sims running in folks homes and on servers where for
> other then OpenSim reasons, these folks wish the server (or desktop
> computer in some cases) to run on the local timezone, where ever it
> is. These reasons run from needing mail programs like Outlook to work
> correctly. These folks end up at a disadvantage unless we can tell
> them how to ensure their OpenSim clock is on UTC.
>
> Another issue is that the SL client itself seems to favor PST, so we
> have client perceptions to deal with. Although as other clients gain
> some wider use, this issue is likely to resolve itself over time.
>
> I would not want either of these to stop a movement towards an OpenSim
> Metaverse timezone, but, these are the two major issues that folks
> have discussed with me that currently cause them angst.
>
> With the highest respect to this illustrious group,
>
> Charles Krinke
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Correcting-Metaverse-Time-tp2179635p2184858.html
Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

justincc
In reply to this post by Robert Klein
Robert Klein wrote:
> Justin what do you think? Where do we start to make this happen?
>

I was under the impression that PST was hardcoded in the Linden Labs Second Life viewer.  Certainly I haven't seen
anything serverside that could currently affect the displayed clock.

Of course, other clients could introduce adjustable timezone display and extra messages could be added to OpenSim via
modules (eventually) to accommodate this.

But I agree with people in the parallel opensim-dev thread to this that all servers should use the same underlying
timezone for data purposes - the logical choice here is UTC.


> Cheers,
>
> -Robert
>
>
> Ai Austin wrote:
>> At 05:06 19/01/2009, [hidden email] wrote:
>>> I was wondering why we continue to use SL (PST) time in our wonderful
>>> OpenSim universe instead of GMT/UTC? What would it take to set our own
>>> standalone opensims for another timezone?
>>
>> I would vote for UTC... and cakll it that rather GMT wh ich happens
>> to equal UTC.  We are international after all :-)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>
>>
>


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http://justincc.wordpress.com
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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Robert Klein
In reply to this post by Charles Krinke-3
To restate the original issue/concern, "Currently OpenSim is relying on SLT as a common starting point for time. The rest of the RL world uses UTC. Should we break SL tradition and move towards using UTC (MTC) as the standard reference and what do we do about the viewer?" I believe everyone is in agreement that using UTC is the best way to go. What is the next step?

Actually most project/business/education oriented people coming from SL will probably be relieved to see us using UTC.

-Robert

<quote author="Charles Krinke">
Well, maybe I am having trouble getting it, Stefan.

A few days ago, there were several multi-hour, heated discussions about how the timezones of different servers would make events and scripts malfunction.

Personally, I have been using UTC since the 1970's and GMT before that in communicating around this rock, so I dont get the flap and just use UTC/GMT, but it seems an important subject to others.

Charles
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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Robert Klein
In reply to this post by justincc
I see what you mean Justin, it probaly is hardcoded in the SL viewer. Well shall we make a move to change this for the Hippo or any other viewer? Where do we start this process?

-Robert

Justin Clark-Casey wrote
Robert Klein wrote:
> Justin what do you think? Where do we start to make this happen?
>

I was under the impression that PST was hardcoded in the Linden Labs Second Life viewer.  Certainly I haven't seen
anything serverside that could currently affect the displayed clock.

Of course, other clients could introduce adjustable timezone display and extra messages could be added to OpenSim via
modules (eventually) to accommodate this.

But I agree with people in the parallel opensim-dev thread to this that all servers should use the same underlying
timezone for data purposes - the logical choice here is UTC.


> Cheers,
>
> -Robert
>
>
> Ai Austin wrote:
>> At 05:06 19/01/2009, opensim-users-request@lists.berlios.de wrote:
>>> I was wondering why we continue to use SL (PST) time in our wonderful
>>> OpenSim universe instead of GMT/UTC? What would it take to set our own
>>> standalone opensims for another timezone?
>>
>> I would vote for UTC... and cakll it that rather GMT wh ich happens
>> to equal UTC.  We are international after all :-)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>
>>
>


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Re: Correcting Metaverse Time

Charles Krinke-3
In reply to this post by Robert Klein
Justin. You bring up a very interesting point. I know in Linux that one generally sets up the server to use UTC, and that the timezone offsets are just that, offsets.

I also know that it is possible to not check the box in a Linux install that says "Use UTC time for the server".

I am less confident about how various Windows variants are setup and how they perform with respect to UTC.

Is it possible that we need a FAQ or a wiki entry with the recommended setup for server times to get this whole thing headed back down a more logical path?

Charles


From: Justin Clark-Casey <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 7:48:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting Metaverse Time

Robert Klein wrote:
> Justin what do you think? Where do we start to make this happen?
>

I was under the impression that PST was hardcoded in the Linden Labs Second Life viewer.  Certainly I haven't seen
anything serverside that could currently affect the displayed clock.

Of course, other clients could introduce adjustable timezone display and extra messages could be added to OpenSim via
modules (eventually) to accommodate this.

But I agree with people in the parallel opensim-dev thread to this that all servers should use the same underlying
timezone for data purposes - the logical choice here is UTC.


> Cheers,
>
> -Robert
>
>
> Ai Austin wrote:
>> At 05:06 19/01/2009, [hidden email] wrote:
>>> I was wondering why we continue to use SL (PST) time in our wonderful
>>> OpenSim universe instead of GMT/UTC? What would it take to set our own
>>> standalone opensims for another timezone?
>>
>> I would vote for UTC... and cakll it that rather GMT wh ich happens
>> to equal UTC.  We are international after all :-)
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>
>>
>


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