Cry Havok:On new World Notes has me worried.

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
9 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Cry Havok:On new World Notes has me worried.

InuYasha Meiji
I just noticed this article, and wanted to know what is really means to
those of us who want to see opensim keep going and hope for newer
updated and continued progress on new clients that support opensim.


      Cry Havok: New Linden Rules May Forbid 3rd Party Viewer
      Development for Use on Non-Lab Servers (i.e. OpenSim)

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2012/04/cry-havok-new-linden-guidelines-third-party-developers.html#comments

Is this a show stopper??

InuYasha


--
________________________________________________________________
Opensim User: Standalone Grid on Version 0.7.2 with 56 Regions
on Windows 7, 64-bit. Phenom 9500 2.2 ghz Quad Core, Terabyte Hard
Drive, 8gig DDR2 RAM.  Used XAMPP to load PHP Version 5.3.0, Apache
and MySQL 5.1.41-community edition.  Groups, Profiles, Voice and
Offline Mesages all working.
________________________________________________________________

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cry Havok:On new World Notes has me worried.

Kay McLennan
On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 8:27 AM, InuYasha Meiji <[hidden email]> wrote:
RE:    Cry Havok: New Linden Rules May Forbid 3rd Party Viewer Development for Use on Non-Lab Servers (i.e. OpenSim) --
http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2012/04/cry-havok-new-linden-guidelines-third-party-developers.html#comments

Is this a show stopper??

InuYasha
Hi Inu, et al,
 
My view is that the new 3rd party viewer prohibition is more of "a show stopper" for Second Life than it is for OpenSim.  That is, OpenSim is already on its own trajectory that yielded new (not available in SL) features like the hypergrid, a choice of ODE and Bullet physics engines, etc.  In other words, I would be surprised if anything SL did at this juncture [absent slashing their island rental prices and this might not do anything (remember:  "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me")] could negatively impact the development of OpenSim.
 
Best,
Kay
 

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cry Havok:On new World Notes has me worried.

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
In reply to this post by InuYasha Meiji
Hi InuYasha,
I don't think it is a 'show stopper'. The avatar based VR applications
space is very wide, for e.g. some potentially powerful applications
(eg multiuser data visualizations, GIS applications, even games that
do not require physics are yet to emerge). From which ever angle you
look at it, philosophical, technical, design..sometimes physics might
not be the prime requirement. Having said that, a great physics engine
should be part of the platform ....for other obvious reasons to meet
requirements for the remaining class of applications, and I think many
people are already making progress in opensim domains too, am yet to
educate myself about it. It certainly would be nice for opensim to
lead an existence of its own and I think there is enough enthusiasm
out there for it to happen. On the 'feelings of dread' end about the
'future of opensim and so on', well that's how the mind functions ...
looks like there are going to be changes as always and the mind fears
change.  As I continue to use opensim, however, am finding that by and
large I feel happier, less trapped, less annoyed even if there are
things I miss once in a while which fortunately is not a prime
requirement for me in my current projects. On the technical end, there
are areas where opensim are superior to Second Life. For e.g. for
Linden Lab an NPC is still a pathfinding box.
Of course there is hypergrid and so on, as well (but most of my
clients require walled gardens so that is not too much useful for the
clients at the moment unless their efforts grow locally and might
recognize the need for this functionality)
I will wait for their implementation of Second Life's Havok ... in any
case, I hope the best for Linden Lab ... they are now governed by the
fear of survival. They will be playing defense for a long time to
come, I think, expect more barriers.
Ramesh

On Sun, Apr 15, 2012 at 7:27 AM, InuYasha Meiji
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> I just noticed this article, and wanted to know what is really means to
> those of us who want to see opensim keep going and hope for newer updated
> and continued progress on new clients that support opensim.
>
>
>     Cry Havok: New Linden Rules May Forbid 3rd Party Viewer
>     Development for Use on Non-Lab Servers (i.e. OpenSim)
>
> http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2012/04/cry-havok-new-linden-guidelines-third-party-developers.html#comments
>
> Is this a show stopper??
>
> InuYasha
>
>
> --
> ________________________________________________________________
> Opensim User: Standalone Grid on Version 0.7.2 with 56 Regions
> on Windows 7, 64-bit. Phenom 9500 2.2 ghz Quad Core, Terabyte Hard
> Drive, 8gig DDR2 RAM.  Used XAMPP to load PHP Version 5.3.0, Apache
> and MySQL 5.1.41-community edition.  Groups, Profiles, Voice and
> Offline Mesages all working.
> ________________________________________________________________
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate
Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID
83209 Tel: 208-240-0040
Blog, LinkedIn, DeepSemaphore LLC, Google+ profile
_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cry Havok:On new World Notes has me worried.

Bartholomew Gallacher
In reply to this post by InuYasha Meiji
Am 15.04.2012 15:27, schrieb InuYasha Meiji:

 > I just noticed this article, and wanted to know what is really means to
 > those of us who want to see opensim keep going and hope for newer
 > updated and continued progress on new clients that support opensim.
 >
 > Cry Havok: New Linden Rules May Forbid 3rd Party Viewer
 > Development for Use on Non-Lab Servers (i.e. OpenSim)
 >
 >
http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2012/04/cry-havok-new-linden-guidelines-third-party-developers.html#comments
 >
 >
 > Is this a show stopper??

No, it is not.

To be put in quite simple terms: this is an offer from Linden Lab to the
community of Third Party Developers. If you as TPV developer do not want
to implement the features necessary for the new path finding routines
you do not need that kind of license and the vast majority of the
residents is not going to use that kind of stuff even at all.

Again: it is a free offer from Linden Lab to the TPV developers, nothing
more, nothing less.

Of course there is normally no such thing as a free lunch and my simple
guess why they need to disallow the possibility of using that binary
library on OS grids is that they need to pay a good amount of money as
license fee ot Intel Inc., which owns Havok nowadays, and that that fee
does not include the usage of that library in Opensim based grids,
"just" only Linden Lab based grids, and frankly: what should Linden Lab
care about that and even pay that for the competition?

Also if someone somewhere out of here wants to re-implement the
necessary routines without Havok, well who is going to stop her/him?

And even if some viewer developers are going to use that license, what´s
the problem? Let´s just say for example the kind bunch of people of the
Firestorm project are going to sign that license. Even then it is not a
showstopper, beceuse no one is going to stop them if they are going to
produce and release two viewers from the same code base, one still named
Firestorm which only connects to the Linden Grids then and another,
let´s call it Fireworm, for the rest of Opensim based grids without the
Havok routines builtin.

The only problem in that license is not the license at all, but the
somewhat clumsy coverage it got from Hypergrid Business, which is per so
not a good news source at all in my opinion, because it´s much more of a
tabloid than a serious and well written newspaper.

Cheers,
Bart
_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cry Havok:On new World Notes has me worried.

justincc
In reply to this post by InuYasha Meiji
I think things depend on how the feature is integrated into the viewer and how the Havok sublicense clause

“Sublicensee must require the Third Party Viewer to connect only to servers owned or operated by the Company [Linden Lab].”

is interpreted.

If LL allow a TPV to develop both an LL-only Havok version and an OpenSim/other non-Havok version then I don't think
it's too bad.  This requires that the new code be modular and not absolutely core to the viewer experience in some way.
  At the moment I believe it only touches optional pathfinding but this could change over time.

If either of these conditions is false then I think TPV developers are forced to make a choice - use Havok and develop
for LL only or abandon LL and develop only for OpenSimulator and similar platforms.

And to be honest, I'm not sure how the Havok sublicense could be enforced.  Once a Havok binary is out in the wild it
doesn't matter who you whack - the code isn't going to disappear.  Anybody could glue a viewer together with the Havok
binary and use it how they like, or publish a patchset which moves any LL-only restrictions from an existing open-source
viewer.

Then again, Havok do have a free (Intel sponsored) physics download (albeit win32 only) which can even be used in
commercial games with a value of 10 USD or less.  I hear that this doesn't contain pathfinding functionality (?) but
this doesn't seem a million miles away from allowing a similar package to be used in open-source software

On 15/04/12 14:27, InuYasha Meiji wrote:

> I just noticed this article, and wanted to know what is really means to those of us who want to see opensim keep going
> and hope for newer updated and continued progress on new clients that support opensim.
>
>
> Cry Havok: New Linden Rules May Forbid 3rd Party Viewer
> Development for Use on Non-Lab Servers (i.e. OpenSim)
>
> http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2012/04/cry-havok-new-linden-guidelines-third-party-developers.html#comments
>
> Is this a show stopper??
>
> InuYasha
>
>


--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
http://justincc.org/blog
http://twitter.com/justincc
_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cry Havok:On new World Notes has me worried.

Sarge Misfit
OpenSim needs its own viewer, one that is not reliant on nor restricted in any way by SL/LL.

On Mon, Apr 16, 2012 at 6:33 PM, Justin Clark-Casey <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think things depend on how the feature is integrated into the viewer and how the Havok sublicense clause

“Sublicensee must require the Third Party Viewer to connect only to servers owned or operated by the Company [Linden Lab].”

is interpreted.

If LL allow a TPV to develop both an LL-only Havok version and an OpenSim/other non-Havok version then I don't think it's too bad.  This requires that the new code be modular and not absolutely core to the viewer experience in some way.  At the moment I believe it only touches optional pathfinding but this could change over time.

If either of these conditions is false then I think TPV developers are forced to make a choice - use Havok and develop for LL only or abandon LL and develop only for OpenSimulator and similar platforms.

And to be honest, I'm not sure how the Havok sublicense could be enforced.  Once a Havok binary is out in the wild it doesn't matter who you whack - the code isn't going to disappear.  Anybody could glue a viewer together with the Havok binary and use it how they like, or publish a patchset which moves any LL-only restrictions from an existing open-source viewer.

Then again, Havok do have a free (Intel sponsored) physics download (albeit win32 only) which can even be used in commercial games with a value of 10 USD or less.  I hear that this doesn't contain pathfinding functionality (?) but this doesn't seem a million miles away from allowing a similar package to be used in open-source software


On 15/04/12 14:27, InuYasha Meiji wrote:
I just noticed this article, and wanted to know what is really means to those of us who want to see opensim keep going
and hope for newer updated and continued progress on new clients that support opensim.


Cry Havok: New Linden Rules May Forbid 3rd Party Viewer
Development for Use on Non-Lab Servers (i.e. OpenSim)

http://nwn.blogs.com/nwn/2012/04/cry-havok-new-linden-guidelines-third-party-developers.html#comments

Is this a show stopper??

InuYasha




--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
http://justincc.org/blog
http://twitter.com/justincc

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Cry Havok:On new World Notes has me worried.

Bartholomew Gallacher
Am 17.04.2012 15:58, schrieb Sarge Misfit:

> OpenSim needs its own viewer, one that is not reliant on nor restricted
> in any way by SL/LL.

Well, there are enough projects out there and at least ones main focus
is on Opensim, not SL, namely Kokua/Imprudence.

But doing so takes time and costs money, I guess they are always more
than happy for helping hands there.
_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Server Problems??

Randy Pierce
In reply to this post by justincc
I have not gotten any mail from the list since April 17. Is it broken?

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Changing the world - one prim at a time! The Insight Concepts Grid http://gcse.dyndns.org:8002
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Server Problems??

GarminKawaguichi
I've had this problem in the past
Call this page:
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

Go to paragraph:
 Opensim-users Subscribers
(The subscribers list is only available to the list members.)
and try to connect

If your login is not accepted, try to subscribe again.
If your login is accepted and you receive nothing from the list, contact
Justin (address at the bottom of the page)

GCI


----- Original Message -----
From: "The Pierce Family" <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2012 3:07 AM
Subject: [Opensim-users] Server Problems??


>I have not gotten any mail from the list since April 17. Is it broken?

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users