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Exporting from Second Life

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Exporting from Second Life

Drew Hart
So i used to use Second Inventory but that doesn't seem to be active anymore.  How do I export animations, etc., from Second Life for transfer to say OpenSim?  And yes, these are my animations and/or I paid for rights to transfer them to another grid.  Thanks,

Drew

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Re: Exporting from Second Life

Gudule Lapointe
- For your animations, I guess you have sources for that, so it's not an issue
- If you explicitly paid rights for use in another grid, contact your vendor, they must have a solution for you. If not, they cheated, you have to sue them.
- If none of above points apply, you're probably in the case of trying to export to other grids content that is supposed to used only in SL, there is no legal, out of the box solution.


--
<a href="secondlife://speculoos.net:8002/">secondlife://speculoos.net:8002/
Speculoos, the belgian cookie-flavored metaverse

Le 6 juil. 2012 à 23:07, Drew Hart a écrit :

So i used to use Second Inventory but that doesn't seem to be active anymore.  How do I export animations, etc., from Second Life for transfer to say OpenSim?  And yes, these are my animations and/or I paid for rights to transfer them to another grid.  Thanks,

Drew
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Re: Exporting from Second Life

Drew Hart
I have been reading and it looks like I will need to get the original files from the content creators as LL implemented a policy you can only export if you have full perms and are the creator, so I think I am good - well I know what to do - but it is a pain compared too just being able to export an entire object - animations, shapes and all, now I have to get each original file from the creator and assemble it in the new grid.

Drew

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 5:39 PM, Gudule Lapointe <[hidden email]> wrote:
- For your animations, I guess you have sources for that, so it's not an issue
- If you explicitly paid rights for use in another grid, contact your vendor, they must have a solution for you. If not, they cheated, you have to sue them.
- If none of above points apply, you're probably in the case of trying to export to other grids content that is supposed to used only in SL, there is no legal, out of the box solution.


--
Speculoos, the belgian cookie-flavored metaverse

Le 6 juil. 2012 à 23:07, Drew Hart a écrit :

So i used to use Second Inventory but that doesn't seem to be active anymore.  How do I export animations, etc., from Second Life for transfer to say OpenSim?  And yes, these are my animations and/or I paid for rights to transfer them to another grid.  Thanks,

Drew
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Re: Exporting from Second Life

DZ-2
In reply to this post by Drew Hart

From: Drew Hart <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Opensim-users] Exporting from Second Life
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

So i used to use Second Inventory but that doesn't seem to be active
anymore.  How do I export animations, etc., from Second Life for transfer
to say OpenSim?  And yes, these are my animations and/or I paid for rights
to transfer them to another grid.  Thanks,

Drew

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 19:32:42 -0400
From: Drew Hart <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Opensim-users] Please don't judge
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

okay, this is the second post.  Here is what I am getting at.  Stroker, the
creator of SexGen open sourced and gave full permissions to do whatever
with his creations when he left SL.  There was some dispute by his
partners, but they made a script that removes all the disputed animations.
Obviously, I can copy text for the scripts, but I would like to move the
animations to my personal grid.  I can see no way to do this.  I don't see
any moral or legal issues as he was very clear as to his intent to
completely open source it and I have removed the disputed animations - but
without the original files, it is no longer possible to export animations
even that have full perms that I know of if you are not the creator.  I
didn't want to say this because of the whole judgement/sex angle, but what
the heck.  Is there any solution to get those animations out of SL.  I am
sure I am not the only one interested in this - I don't plan to profit
(though I could by the terms of his release), just want to use them in a
grid outside of SL.  And there are other objects that fall into this same
category - person leaves SL, opens it, but without the original files, you
can't move them out of SL anymore.  Thoughts?  Thanks,

Drew


There's a couple important concepts about animations and licenses...

First...Full Perm on Second Life  does NOT mean you are "allowed" to export them to any other grid.
    Many SL animators specifically PROHIBIT use of their creations on OpenSim based grids.
    A lot of the sculpty makers do the same thing...   you are welcome to buy full perm on SL grid, but you MAY NOT export the shapes.
    Since you brought up Stroker as an example...you are also aware that what someone says/thinks a license says
    SOMETIMES isn't what the creator specified...  Rather than putting yourself and the grid operator in the position
    of answering DCMA demands, you might limit your Grid imports to the objects with clear titles.

Second...  The process of uploading the BVH animation file modifies the result into a form designed to send to viewers..
    Animations differ from almost every other form of in-world object, in that you cant re-create it from the packets required to display it in a viewer,
    I'm pretty sure the effort it would take to reverse engineer the BVH file from the animation info "users" have access to...
    and probability of legal consequences have been deterrents to development of such a utility.

That said... there are animators who are willing to provide the BVH format files for upload to whatever grid will accept them,
but you will find that they expect you to pay them FULL price..   For example...  a marketplace search led to
http://inf-designs.com/.. selling sets of 12-15 couple animations for  about 60 USD.  ( disclaimer.. this was just
an exercise in finding "market prices".. I am NOT recommending them as a source of animations... )

While the new advances in Motion Capture via Kinect promise to reduce the cost of generating "custom" animations,
the current costs of  motion capture studio time (thousand of dollars for recording/editing/formatting a 30 second animation)
make it unlikely that creators will be sympathetic to requests to allow uploading to grids that cannot provide any real form of copy protection.




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Re: Exporting from Second Life

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
One of the problems that user content generation faces in general is that while it is fairly simple to re-use or re-adapt existing content, most users who are creating the derived content are not familiar with DMCA rules. Also sometimes DMCA rules can be crippling ... once I was making a video clip of myself explaining some yoga exercises and had a music playing the background. After uploading the clip, I got a message from youtube saying the clip has content that violates copyright ... so this got me thinking. Say you are capturing a birthday on film and have some birthday music in the background, the birthday music creators can sue you ...

Same thing for animations, even textures, sculpties etc... that you bought, or was 'free' to download etc... may of the free stuff comes with their own copyright constraints (read fine print), for e.g. Turbosquid now pretty much prohibits the use of any of their content in Second Life/OpenSim even for things that you want to fully pay for. I ran into this issue when there was some content that I want to buy, was asked where I wanted to use it, and as soon as I mentioned SL/opensim, was told it was not allowed. Spend a lot of time trying to pry an explanation, all I got is some whimsical statement that SL/Opensim do not support 'proprietary content' ... I still do not understand what this means in fact.

So now, I have a completely take on content production in virtual environments. It is damn expensive to do it. Problem is people cannot pay for what it actually costs to produce them. If you earn a salary of say 5 dollar per hour, just doing a simple texture properly from your own pictures etc... can easily take a couple of hours.  Just imagine how much other things would cost ... animations and so forth.

I think the problem is a much bigger one that meets the eye. You have to make every effort to navigate this difficult problem ... it is really easy to inadvertently use something you are not supposed to it. All in all, looks like you've got to redo everything from scratch ... would be interested to see what others think about this.

On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 2:56 AM, dz <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Drew Hart <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Opensim-users] Exporting from Second Life
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


So i used to use Second Inventory but that doesn't seem to be active
anymore.  How do I export animations, etc., from Second Life for transfer
to say OpenSim?  And yes, these are my animations and/or I paid for rights
to transfer them to another grid.  Thanks,

Drew

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 19:32:42 -0400
From: Drew Hart <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Opensim-users] Please don't judge
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

okay, this is the second post.  Here is what I am getting at.  Stroker, the
creator of SexGen open sourced and gave full permissions to do whatever
with his creations when he left SL.  There was some dispute by his
partners, but they made a script that removes all the disputed animations.
Obviously, I can copy text for the scripts, but I would like to move the
animations to my personal grid.  I can see no way to do this.  I don't see
any moral or legal issues as he was very clear as to his intent to
completely open source it and I have removed the disputed animations - but
without the original files, it is no longer possible to export animations
even that have full perms that I know of if you are not the creator.  I
didn't want to say this because of the whole judgement/sex angle, but what
the heck.  Is there any solution to get those animations out of SL.  I am
sure I am not the only one interested in this - I don't plan to profit
(though I could by the terms of his release), just want to use them in a
grid outside of SL.  And there are other objects that fall into this same
category - person leaves SL, opens it, but without the original files, you
can't move them out of SL anymore.  Thoughts?  Thanks,

Drew


There's a couple important concepts about animations and licenses...

First...Full Perm on Second Life  does NOT mean you are "allowed" to export them to any other grid.
    Many SL animators specifically PROHIBIT use of their creations on OpenSim based grids.
    A lot of the sculpty makers do the same thing...   you are welcome to buy full perm on SL grid, but you MAY NOT export the shapes.
    Since you brought up Stroker as an example...you are also aware that what someone says/thinks a license says
    SOMETIMES isn't what the creator specified...  Rather than putting yourself and the grid operator in the position
    of answering DCMA demands, you might limit your Grid imports to the objects with clear titles.

Second...  The process of uploading the BVH animation file modifies the result into a form designed to send to viewers..
    Animations differ from almost every other form of in-world object, in that you cant re-create it from the packets required to display it in a viewer,
    I'm pretty sure the effort it would take to reverse engineer the BVH file from the animation info "users" have access to...
    and probability of legal consequences have been deterrents to development of such a utility.

That said... there are animators who are willing to provide the BVH format files for upload to whatever grid will accept them,
but you will find that they expect you to pay them FULL price..   For example...  a marketplace search led to
http://inf-designs.com/.. selling sets of 12-15 couple animations for  about 60 USD.  ( disclaimer.. this was just
an exercise in finding "market prices".. I am NOT recommending them as a source of animations... )

While the new advances in Motion Capture via Kinect promise to reduce the cost of generating "custom" animations,
the current costs of  motion capture studio time (thousand of dollars for recording/editing/formatting a 30 second animation)
make it unlikely that creators will be sympathetic to requests to allow uploading to grids that cannot provide any real form of copy protection.




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https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040


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Re: Exporting from Second Life

Olivier van Helden
Drew,

I am afraid the details on your specific case don't change the global concept.

As said earlier, the "full perms" notion only applies inside Second Life. If the creator allowed using content in other grids, it's up to the creator to publish his content outside.

However, please verify carefully Stroker's statement. If he did not mention explicitly that content can be used outside Second Life, SL terms of service do apply and you can't.
Additionally, be aware that Stroker faced several DMCA filings about this content, so be careful about the version you want to use.

Any solution to export content from Second Life (no matter the perms) would be a violation of SL term of services, so there is no legal solution to do that.

That said, there are plenty of free animations available on the web, including anims for things like sexgen.


Le 7 juil. 2012 à 12:56, Dr Ramesh Ramloll a écrit :

One of the problems that user content generation faces in general is that while it is fairly simple to re-use or re-adapt existing content, most users who are creating the derived content are not familiar with DMCA rules. Also sometimes DMCA rules can be crippling ... once I was making a video clip of myself explaining some yoga exercises and had a music playing the background. After uploading the clip, I got a message from youtube saying the clip has content that violates copyright ... so this got me thinking. Say you are capturing a birthday on film and have some birthday music in the background, the birthday music creators can sue you ...

Same thing for animations, even textures, sculpties etc... that you bought, or was 'free' to download etc... may of the free stuff comes with their own copyright constraints (read fine print), for e.g. Turbosquid now pretty much prohibits the use of any of their content in Second Life/OpenSim even for things that you want to fully pay for. I ran into this issue when there was some content that I want to buy, was asked where I wanted to use it, and as soon as I mentioned SL/opensim, was told it was not allowed. Spend a lot of time trying to pry an explanation, all I got is some whimsical statement that SL/Opensim do not support 'proprietary content' ... I still do not understand what this means in fact.

So now, I have a completely take on content production in virtual environments. It is damn expensive to do it. Problem is people cannot pay for what it actually costs to produce them. If you earn a salary of say 5 dollar per hour, just doing a simple texture properly from your own pictures etc... can easily take a couple of hours.  Just imagine how much other things would cost ... animations and so forth.

I think the problem is a much bigger one that meets the eye. You have to make every effort to navigate this difficult problem ... it is really easy to inadvertently use something you are not supposed to it. All in all, looks like you've got to redo everything from scratch ... would be interested to see what others think about this.

On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 2:56 AM, dz <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Drew Hart <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Opensim-users] Exporting from Second Life
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


So i used to use Second Inventory but that doesn't seem to be active
anymore.  How do I export animations, etc., from Second Life for transfer
to say OpenSim?  And yes, these are my animations and/or I paid for rights
to transfer them to another grid.  Thanks,

Drew

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 19:32:42 -0400
From: Drew Hart <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Opensim-users] Please don't judge
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

okay, this is the second post.  Here is what I am getting at.  Stroker, the
creator of SexGen open sourced and gave full permissions to do whatever
with his creations when he left SL.  There was some dispute by his
partners, but they made a script that removes all the disputed animations.
Obviously, I can copy text for the scripts, but I would like to move the
animations to my personal grid.  I can see no way to do this.  I don't see
any moral or legal issues as he was very clear as to his intent to
completely open source it and I have removed the disputed animations - but
without the original files, it is no longer possible to export animations
even that have full perms that I know of if you are not the creator.  I
didn't want to say this because of the whole judgement/sex angle, but what
the heck.  Is there any solution to get those animations out of SL.  I am
sure I am not the only one interested in this - I don't plan to profit
(though I could by the terms of his release), just want to use them in a
grid outside of SL.  And there are other objects that fall into this same
category - person leaves SL, opens it, but without the original files, you
can't move them out of SL anymore.  Thoughts?  Thanks,

Drew


There's a couple important concepts about animations and licenses...

First...Full Perm on Second Life  does NOT mean you are "allowed" to export them to any other grid.
    Many SL animators specifically PROHIBIT use of their creations on OpenSim based grids.
    A lot of the sculpty makers do the same thing...   you are welcome to buy full perm on SL grid, but you MAY NOT export the shapes.
    Since you brought up Stroker as an example...you are also aware that what someone says/thinks a license says
    SOMETIMES isn't what the creator specified...  Rather than putting yourself and the grid operator in the position
    of answering DCMA demands, you might limit your Grid imports to the objects with clear titles.

Second...  The process of uploading the BVH animation file modifies the result into a form designed to send to viewers..
    Animations differ from almost every other form of in-world object, in that you cant re-create it from the packets required to display it in a viewer,
    I'm pretty sure the effort it would take to reverse engineer the BVH file from the animation info "users" have access to...
    and probability of legal consequences have been deterrents to development of such a utility.

That said... there are animators who are willing to provide the BVH format files for upload to whatever grid will accept them,
but you will find that they expect you to pay them FULL price..   For example...  a marketplace search led to
http://inf-designs.com/.. selling sets of 12-15 couple animations for  about 60 USD.  ( disclaimer.. this was just
an exercise in finding "market prices".. I am NOT recommending them as a source of animations... )

While the new advances in Motion Capture via Kinect promise to reduce the cost of generating "custom" animations,
the current costs of  motion capture studio time (thousand of dollars for recording/editing/formatting a 30 second animation)
make it unlikely that creators will be sympathetic to requests to allow uploading to grids that cannot provide any real form of copy protection.




_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

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Opensim-users mailing list
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https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: Exporting from Second Life

Drew Hart
Thanks for the all the info.  I consider myself pretty well versed in IP law (15 years of being a IP lawyer legal secretary) and I am very careful to follow those laws and do respect them.  When I approach creaters in SL, I specifically get rights to grids outside of SL.  In Stroker's case this was not possible as he cut himself off.  I believe I have most of the "Stroker" story and there was a lot of controversy but that deals with his partnership and they only claim ownership to animations.  If you see a SexGen with 600 anims, then it is in dispute and no one should touch it.  They did make a script to strip out the disputed anims, leaving about 300 which fall under Stroker's legal authority.  It is a bit grey, relying on forum postings, etc., but from what I can tell, stroker's are okay to export (legally if not practically).  At any rate, I really do want to bring them to just my personal grid, so I doubt it would become an issue.  I don't plan on bringing them to OSGrid, or something.  Though, if you are into those things, these are 300 quality animations, plus a lot of objects and a complex script.  It certainly would be interesting just for testing purposes to see how it all worked on an OpenSim grid, which is also my motivation.  Thanks,

Drew

On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 7:18 AM, Olivier van Helden <[hidden email]> wrote:
Drew,

I am afraid the details on your specific case don't change the global concept.

As said earlier, the "full perms" notion only applies inside Second Life. If the creator allowed using content in other grids, it's up to the creator to publish his content outside.

However, please verify carefully Stroker's statement. If he did not mention explicitly that content can be used outside Second Life, SL terms of service do apply and you can't.
Additionally, be aware that Stroker faced several DMCA filings about this content, so be careful about the version you want to use.

Any solution to export content from Second Life (no matter the perms) would be a violation of SL term of services, so there is no legal solution to do that.

That said, there are plenty of free animations available on the web, including anims for things like sexgen.


Le 7 juil. 2012 à 12:56, Dr Ramesh Ramloll a écrit :

One of the problems that user content generation faces in general is that while it is fairly simple to re-use or re-adapt existing content, most users who are creating the derived content are not familiar with DMCA rules. Also sometimes DMCA rules can be crippling ... once I was making a video clip of myself explaining some yoga exercises and had a music playing the background. After uploading the clip, I got a message from youtube saying the clip has content that violates copyright ... so this got me thinking. Say you are capturing a birthday on film and have some birthday music in the background, the birthday music creators can sue you ...

Same thing for animations, even textures, sculpties etc... that you bought, or was 'free' to download etc... may of the free stuff comes with their own copyright constraints (read fine print), for e.g. Turbosquid now pretty much prohibits the use of any of their content in Second Life/OpenSim even for things that you want to fully pay for. I ran into this issue when there was some content that I want to buy, was asked where I wanted to use it, and as soon as I mentioned SL/opensim, was told it was not allowed. Spend a lot of time trying to pry an explanation, all I got is some whimsical statement that SL/Opensim do not support 'proprietary content' ... I still do not understand what this means in fact.

So now, I have a completely take on content production in virtual environments. It is damn expensive to do it. Problem is people cannot pay for what it actually costs to produce them. If you earn a salary of say 5 dollar per hour, just doing a simple texture properly from your own pictures etc... can easily take a couple of hours.  Just imagine how much other things would cost ... animations and so forth.

I think the problem is a much bigger one that meets the eye. You have to make every effort to navigate this difficult problem ... it is really easy to inadvertently use something you are not supposed to it. All in all, looks like you've got to redo everything from scratch ... would be interested to see what others think about this.

On Sat, Jul 7, 2012 at 2:56 AM, dz <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Drew Hart <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Opensim-users] Exporting from Second Life
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


So i used to use Second Inventory but that doesn't seem to be active
anymore.  How do I export animations, etc., from Second Life for transfer
to say OpenSim?  And yes, these are my animations and/or I paid for rights
to transfer them to another grid.  Thanks,

Drew

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2012 19:32:42 -0400
From: Drew Hart <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [Opensim-users] Please don't judge
Message-ID:
        <[hidden email]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

okay, this is the second post.  Here is what I am getting at.  Stroker, the
creator of SexGen open sourced and gave full permissions to do whatever
with his creations when he left SL.  There was some dispute by his
partners, but they made a script that removes all the disputed animations.
Obviously, I can copy text for the scripts, but I would like to move the
animations to my personal grid.  I can see no way to do this.  I don't see
any moral or legal issues as he was very clear as to his intent to
completely open source it and I have removed the disputed animations - but
without the original files, it is no longer possible to export animations
even that have full perms that I know of if you are not the creator.  I
didn't want to say this because of the whole judgement/sex angle, but what
the heck.  Is there any solution to get those animations out of SL.  I am
sure I am not the only one interested in this - I don't plan to profit
(though I could by the terms of his release), just want to use them in a
grid outside of SL.  And there are other objects that fall into this same
category - person leaves SL, opens it, but without the original files, you
can't move them out of SL anymore.  Thoughts?  Thanks,

Drew


There's a couple important concepts about animations and licenses...

First...Full Perm on Second Life  does NOT mean you are "allowed" to export them to any other grid.
    Many SL animators specifically PROHIBIT use of their creations on OpenSim based grids.
    A lot of the sculpty makers do the same thing...   you are welcome to buy full perm on SL grid, but you MAY NOT export the shapes.
    Since you brought up Stroker as an example...you are also aware that what someone says/thinks a license says
    SOMETIMES isn't what the creator specified...  Rather than putting yourself and the grid operator in the position
    of answering DCMA demands, you might limit your Grid imports to the objects with clear titles.

Second...  The process of uploading the BVH animation file modifies the result into a form designed to send to viewers..
    Animations differ from almost every other form of in-world object, in that you cant re-create it from the packets required to display it in a viewer,
    I'm pretty sure the effort it would take to reverse engineer the BVH file from the animation info "users" have access to...
    and probability of legal consequences have been deterrents to development of such a utility.

That said... there are animators who are willing to provide the BVH format files for upload to whatever grid will accept them,
but you will find that they expect you to pay them FULL price..   For example...  a marketplace search led to
http://inf-designs.com/.. selling sets of 12-15 couple animations for  about 60 USD.  ( disclaimer.. this was just
an exercise in finding "market prices".. I am NOT recommending them as a source of animations... )

While the new advances in Motion Capture via Kinect promise to reduce the cost of generating "custom" animations,
the current costs of  motion capture studio time (thousand of dollars for recording/editing/formatting a 30 second animation)
make it unlikely that creators will be sympathetic to requests to allow uploading to grids that cannot provide any real form of copy protection.




_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
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