Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!

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Re: Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!

Frisby, Adam
Honestly, I think there's some disconnects between people here that need to be addressed.

There are several different audiences here, and consequently several different reactions. There is the group of users attempting to put OpenSim into production environments - the harsher reactions I have seen tend to fall into this group. There is home users and hobbyists - the more positive reactions are from there.

To the production users, we do as a team find it unfortunate you were badly impacted, however as a group a large portion of work on OpenSim comes from personal developers without sponsorship. As a team, we also make absolutely no guarantees about trunk releases at all (infact we often make the opposite), the best practices we publish on our website very clearly state that production users should stick to a tagged release, and even then you are operating alpha code.

While we have generally been blessed with a reasonably well written and maintained codebase - trunk is not guaranteed to operate. Had there been an accident and the database became corrupted over time due to coding error - the outrage on this list would not have been as loud, however the impacts would have been significantly worsened.

Often, developers need to break code and features in order to improve things, if we cannot make trunk unstable, then the ability to develop and continually improve the codebase is restricted. One recent example was some avatar appearance issues that showed up after the MXP stack - that one I caused by removing code which erroneously assumed an avatar utilized the LLUDP Stack.

The short term result of that change was it broke avatar appearance in certain circumstances for a period of about 24 hours, the long term result was we got one step closer to more protocols, more neutrality and abstracted behaviour - all seen as good things to the codebase -- however another example of why we do not recommend anyone utilize trunk for production - it was still broken for a day, and this is a regular occurance.

For instance, a patch not too long ago adjusted the asset database format - while fine on local systems with small asset counts, in a production environment (specifically osgrid), it caused the entire database to melt. OSGrid accepts that risk since they are a testing grid - but to another operator, you would have applied that same patch just as easily as osgrid did if today's example is the norm.

Now the first response, I expect will be 'this was deliberate/vandalism' - yes there was an april fools joke in the codebase. However, please consider the following:

* The impact was for the most part completely negligible - no permanent changes were made, the code deactivates automatically, a patch is available on mantis (and is no longer in trunk anyway).
* You are running a version of the codebase that is *explicitly marked as 'not suitable for production'*.
* You are receiving a product for free under an extremely liberal license on behalf of the generosity of others.

That april fools joke was /only ever accessible in the developers and testers oriented release/. The intended audience was those two groups - developers and testers. Even the release candidate version had the offending code removed.

If you want to put OpenSim into production, fantastic - we like to see it being used. However when you then do not follow the advice we post clearly on the website in multiple places and put trunk into production, then no - the responsibility for failure rests upon your shoulders - trunk is /not safe for production/.

We do recognize the growing corporate demand for OpenSim - it's one of the reason that people such as Stefan have begun a back-patches version (post-fixes) which incorporates fixes into the last stable version. We spend the time maintaining that version because we recognise the need, it's also the reason we have been as a group moving towards more release-oriented packaging such as the installers and other easy-to-deploy packages.

If you are a corporate user putting OpenSim into production, make sure you have the following preparations:

1. Have a stable revision handy - currently that is 0.6.3-postfixes. Sometimes bugs show up randomly and break things badly. You should always have a backup system when working with OpenSim.

2. Use our postfix releases normally - sometimes a feature patch is very tempting to upgrade to, but then ask yourself what the cost might be? If stick figure avatars are going to cause you to have issues with clients - ask yourself what random object destruction might cause. It's happened in the past on trunk - I have no doubts major unintended bugs will sneak into trunk in future.

Only upgrade past post-fixes if you keep a very keen eye on SVN commit logs and are capable of testing hardened revisions.

3. Keep backups. Too many OpenSim installs do not do this. OAR works well for content, however a full database backup is recommend (this varies from tool to tool, know your system.)

4. Slow and steady is the name of the game. We actually keep several of our clients on a r6XXX release since we're able to confirm it works for their uses in the majority of cases and doesn't have unknown factors.

Regards,

Adam


> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:opensim-users-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Teravus Ovares
> Sent: Wednesday, 1 April 2009 2:57 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Cc: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second
> Life!
>
> One more reply to this.   Have a look at some positive responses.
>
> http://osgrid.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1051&start=10
>
> Sincrerely
>
> Teravus
>
> On 4/1/09, Teravus Ovares <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > Now now, lets be reasonable.     It's one thing to get April fooled..
> >  it's another to gloat about it.  Generally, I don't think it's a
> good
> > idea to gloat.   It is what it is ..    and we learn and continue on.
> >
> > Sincerely
> >
> > Teravus
> >
> >
> > On 4/1/09, Skidz Tweak <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > Don't let the door hit you in the butt!
> > > Everyone bitching about this only has theirselves to blame!
> > > If you can't live with that fact, keep making up crap in your head
> saying it
> > > was someone else fault. That's it... the sweet feel of denial.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [hidden email]
> > > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
> Jonathan
> > > Greenlee
> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:07 PM
> > > To: [hidden email]
> > > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second
> Life!
> > >
> > >
> > > I want to make sure you understand why my company is now
> withdrawing our
> > > good will and support toward OpenSim,
> > > And why we are withdrawing our financial support from several
> OpenSim Grids
> > > we were supporting with our business.
> > >
> > > --- On Wed, 4/1/09, MW <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > From: MW <[hidden email]>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells
> Second Life!
> > > > To: [hidden email]
> > > > Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 4:03 PM
> > > > While
> > > > Teravus did the april 1st joke, all of core (or certainly
> > > > most of it) knew about it. And we fully supported him
> > > > applying it. As he said it was never in a tagged version.
> > > >
> > > > --- On Wed, 1/4/09, Teravus Ovares
> > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > From: Teravus Ovares
> > > > <[hidden email]>
> > > > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab
> > > > Sells Second Life!
> > > > To: [hidden email],
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > Date: Wednesday, 1 April, 2009, 9:59 PM
> > > >
> > > > FYI, the avatar stick bug April 1 joke was my idea.
> > > >
> > > > Also, I think it's really important to note that all of
> > > > the developers
> > > > of OpenSimulator have, since day one told people to avoid
> > > > SVN for
> > > > something that is production.   That includes anything that
> > > >  you want
> > > > to work.
> > > >
> > > > April 1st is a tradition in OpenSimulator and on April 1st
> > > > a sense of
> > > > humor is required when using SVN.   We made sure that all
> > > > releases and
> > > > tags did *not* have the April fool's joke in it for
> > > > this very reason.
> > > >    We make releases and tag revisions not for our benefit,
> > > > but for
> > > > yours.
> > > >
> > > > I know some people on this list don't spend time on
> > > > IRC, however, it's
> > > > been hinted upon since February that there would likely be
> > > > an April
> > > > fool's joke there.  For those that argue that most
> > > > people don't sit in
> > > > IRC, see two paragraphs up.
> > > >
> > > > Now, if despite our warnings and hints, you continued to
> > > > use SVN, then
> > > > likely your avatar were stick-bugged.
> > > >
> > > > I reiterate what has been said all along.   Direct SVN
> > > > revisions are
> > > > risky.  They've always been, and it's always bad
> > > > practice to use them
> > > > unless you've thoroughly looked them over.   A lot of
> > > > people thought
> > > > it was funny.  The people who did not were in
> > > >  the far minority.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely
> > > >
> > > > Teravus
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On 4/1/09, Jonathan Greenlee
> > > > <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > This was funny.
> > > > > Vandalising everyone's avatar was not.
> > > > >
> > > > > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM, S Collingwood
> > > > <[hidden email]>
> > > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > This is really BIG.  A takeover!  We can expect
> > > > > > panzer tanks rolling into shopping malls --
> > > > uniformed guards at sim
> > > > crossings
> > > > > > --  dogs and cats living together -- it's the
> > > > END!!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Linden Lab Sells Second Life!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > >
> > > http://www.secondlifeupdate.com/news-and-stuff/linden-lab-sells-
> second-life/
> > > > > > --
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > > Opensim-users mailing list
> > > > > [hidden email]
> > > > >
> > > >  https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> > > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Opensim-users mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
> > > >
> > > > _______________________________________________
> > > > Opensim-users mailing list
> > > > [hidden email]
> > > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Opensim-users mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Opensim-users mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> > >
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
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Re: Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!

Butch Arnold
In reply to this post by Skidz Tweak
I myself am glad to see the developers do in fact have a playful sense
of humor.
This whole situation could have been avoided by simply testing the SVN
version before applying it for general use on your grid.
KUDOS to the devs for another fine job... well done.. as usual.

-Butch


Skidz Tweak wrote:

> Don't let the door hit you in the butt!
> Everyone bitching about this only has theirselves to blame!
> If you can't live with that fact, keep making up crap in your head saying it
> was someone else fault. That's it... the sweet feel of denial.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jonathan
> Greenlee
> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:07 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!
>
>
> I want to make sure you understand why my company is now withdrawing our
> good will and support toward OpenSim,
> And why we are withdrawing our financial support from several OpenSim Grids
> we were supporting with our business.
>
> --- On Wed, 4/1/09, MW <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>  
>> From: MW <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 4:03 PM
>> While
>> Teravus did the april 1st joke, all of core (or certainly
>> most of it) knew about it. And we fully supported him
>> applying it. As he said it was never in a tagged version.
>>
>> --- On Wed, 1/4/09, Teravus Ovares
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> From: Teravus Ovares
>> <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab
>> Sells Second Life!
>> To: [hidden email],
>> [hidden email]
>> Date: Wednesday, 1 April, 2009, 9:59 PM
>>
>> FYI, the avatar stick bug April 1 joke was my idea.
>>
>> Also, I think it's really important to note that all of
>> the developers
>> of OpenSimulator have, since day one told people to avoid
>> SVN for
>> something that is production.   That includes anything that
>>  you want
>> to work.
>>
>> April 1st is a tradition in OpenSimulator and on April 1st
>> a sense of
>> humor is required when using SVN.   We made sure that all
>> releases and
>> tags did *not* have the April fool's joke in it for
>> this very reason.
>>    We make releases and tag revisions not for our benefit,
>> but for
>> yours.
>>
>> I know some people on this list don't spend time on
>> IRC, however, it's
>> been hinted upon since February that there would likely be
>> an April
>> fool's joke there.  For those that argue that most
>> people don't sit in
>> IRC, see two paragraphs up.
>>
>> Now, if despite our warnings and hints, you continued to
>> use SVN, then
>> likely your avatar were stick-bugged.
>>
>> I reiterate what has been said all along.   Direct SVN
>> revisions are
>> risky.  They've always been, and it's always bad
>> practice to use them
>> unless you've thoroughly looked them over.   A lot of
>> people thought
>> it was funny.  The people who did not were in
>>  the far minority.
>>
>>
>> Sincerely
>>
>> Teravus
>>
>>
>> On 4/1/09, Jonathan Greenlee
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>    
>>> This was funny.
>>> Vandalising everyone's avatar was not.
>>>
>>>      
>>>> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM, S Collingwood
>>>>        
>> <[hidden email]>
>>    
>>>> wrote:
>>>> This is really BIG.  A takeover!  We can expect
>>>> panzer tanks rolling into shopping malls --
>>>>        
>> uniformed guards at sim
>> crossings
>>    
>>>> --  dogs and cats living together -- it's the
>>>>        
>> END!!
>>    
>>>> Linden Lab Sells Second Life!
>>>>        
>>>>>          
> http://www.secondlifeupdate.com/news-and-stuff/linden-lab-sells-second-life/
>  
>>>> --
>>>>        
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>>
>>>      
>>  https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>    
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>      
>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>
>>    
>
>
>      
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
> Version: 8.0.238 / Virus Database: 270.11.35/2034 - Release Date: 04/01/09 06:06:00
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>  
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Re: Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

John Sheridan
In reply to this post by Frisby, Adam
Holy blog wars Batman!  I can see emotions are running high, so I thread lightly while writing this... 

For around six months now since I and my cohorts started building out our grid we've been more or less running off of the trunk.  We have a weekly update process wherein every Sunday after the commit emails stop flying by I'll shut down, back up, then update everything to that Sunday's SVN.  After the update is complete I'll go around in world, try a few tests to make sure that everything is in one piece and that basic functionality is there.  So far there have only been a handful of times that I've had to cancel or roll back an update due to broken functionality or warnings on the mailing lists that heavy changes were taking place.

As far as data and content are concerned, we all realize that this is alpha software and that certain instabilities may exist from week to week.  So far we've not had any major disasters as far as data and content save a few mangled, non-persisting, or overly persisting (where they won't go away) prims.  However in most cases workarounds were available and all users were told how to go about utilizing them.  As an added measure, just in case we rely on the weekly backups as well periodic dumps of our sims into OAR files. 

My primary reason for choosing this sort of procedure is so that while we are building, creating, and using the grid we can also contribute back to OpenSim in the form of bug reports and feedback.  (See a draft copy of our community standards for more on this:  http://www.pseudospace.net/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=60)

Regardless, we do consider our setup to be in quasi-production regardless of whatever minor glitches exist within the trunk.  As well, we are sure to make it quite clear to the few users that we do have (albeit not many as we do not yet have any completed or usable environments other then Ellis) that both OpenSim as the underlying software and Pseudospace as the service itself are under heavy development and could be unstable at times. 

Now as a software developer myself (albeit in a completely different realm then OpenSim as I do small scale database / windows apps) I can understand the risks of running untested software for production uses, however in this case I'm unsure as how to proceed.  We like contributing back to the community in whatever way we can, and also enjoy testing or riding the bleeding edge of the wave, yet after reading the prior posts I'm suddenly not sure if simply backing up, exporting, and rolling back is as safe as I thought.  From the standpoint of those who develop OpenSim, would you guys say what I'm doing is safe?

Thanks and good karma to you all,

 - John Sheridan / Orion Pseudo

Frisby, Adam wrote:
Honestly, I think there's some disconnects between people here that need to be addressed.

There are several different audiences here, and consequently several different reactions. There is the group of users attempting to put OpenSim into production environments - the harsher reactions I have seen tend to fall into this group. There is home users and hobbyists - the more positive reactions are from there.

To the production users, we do as a team find it unfortunate you were badly impacted, however as a group a large portion of work on OpenSim comes from personal developers without sponsorship. As a team, we also make absolutely no guarantees about trunk releases at all (infact we often make the opposite), the best practices we publish on our website very clearly state that production users should stick to a tagged release, and even then you are operating alpha code.

While we have generally been blessed with a reasonably well written and maintained codebase - trunk is not guaranteed to operate. Had there been an accident and the database became corrupted over time due to coding error - the outrage on this list would not have been as loud, however the impacts would have been significantly worsened.

Often, developers need to break code and features in order to improve things, if we cannot make trunk unstable, then the ability to develop and continually improve the codebase is restricted. One recent example was some avatar appearance issues that showed up after the MXP stack - that one I caused by removing code which erroneously assumed an avatar utilized the LLUDP Stack.

The short term result of that change was it broke avatar appearance in certain circumstances for a period of about 24 hours, the long term result was we got one step closer to more protocols, more neutrality and abstracted behaviour - all seen as good things to the codebase -- however another example of why we do not recommend anyone utilize trunk for production - it was still broken for a day, and this is a regular occurance.

For instance, a patch not too long ago adjusted the asset database format - while fine on local systems with small asset counts, in a production environment (specifically osgrid), it caused the entire database to melt. OSGrid accepts that risk since they are a testing grid - but to another operator, you would have applied that same patch just as easily as osgrid did if today's example is the norm.

Now the first response, I expect will be 'this was deliberate/vandalism' - yes there was an april fools joke in the codebase. However, please consider the following:

* The impact was for the most part completely negligible - no permanent changes were made, the code deactivates automatically, a patch is available on mantis (and is no longer in trunk anyway).
* You are running a version of the codebase that is *explicitly marked as 'not suitable for production'*.
* You are receiving a product for free under an extremely liberal license on behalf of the generosity of others.

That april fools joke was /only ever accessible in the developers and testers oriented release/. The intended audience was those two groups - developers and testers. Even the release candidate version had the offending code removed.

If you want to put OpenSim into production, fantastic - we like to see it being used. However when you then do not follow the advice we post clearly on the website in multiple places and put trunk into production, then no - the responsibility for failure rests upon your shoulders - trunk is /not safe for production/.

We do recognize the growing corporate demand for OpenSim - it's one of the reason that people such as Stefan have begun a back-patches version (post-fixes) which incorporates fixes into the last stable version. We spend the time maintaining that version because we recognise the need, it's also the reason we have been as a group moving towards more release-oriented packaging such as the installers and other easy-to-deploy packages.

If you are a corporate user putting OpenSim into production, make sure you have the following preparations:

1. Have a stable revision handy - currently that is 0.6.3-postfixes. Sometimes bugs show up randomly and break things badly. You should always have a backup system when working with OpenSim.

2. Use our postfix releases normally - sometimes a feature patch is very tempting to upgrade to, but then ask yourself what the cost might be? If stick figure avatars are going to cause you to have issues with clients - ask yourself what random object destruction might cause. It's happened in the past on trunk - I have no doubts major unintended bugs will sneak into trunk in future.

Only upgrade past post-fixes if you keep a very keen eye on SVN commit logs and are capable of testing hardened revisions.

3. Keep backups. Too many OpenSim installs do not do this. OAR works well for content, however a full database backup is recommend (this varies from tool to tool, know your system.)

4. Slow and steady is the name of the game. We actually keep several of our clients on a r6XXX release since we're able to confirm it works for their uses in the majority of cases and doesn't have unknown factors.

Regards,

Adam


  
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]-
[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Teravus Ovares
Sent: Wednesday, 1 April 2009 2:57 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second
Life!

One more reply to this.   Have a look at some positive responses.

http://osgrid.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1051&start=10

Sincrerely

Teravus

On 4/1/09, Teravus Ovares [hidden email] wrote:
    
Now now, lets be reasonable.     It's one thing to get April fooled..
 it's another to gloat about it.  Generally, I don't think it's a
      
good
    
idea to gloat.   It is what it is ..    and we learn and continue on.

Sincerely

Teravus


On 4/1/09, Skidz Tweak [hidden email] wrote:
      
Don't let the door hit you in the butt!
Everyone bitching about this only has theirselves to blame!
If you can't live with that fact, keep making up crap in your head
        
saying it
    
was someone else fault. That's it... the sweet feel of denial.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
        
Jonathan
    
Greenlee
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:07 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second
        
Life!
    
I want to make sure you understand why my company is now
        
withdrawing our
    
good will and support toward OpenSim,
And why we are withdrawing our financial support from several
        
OpenSim Grids
    
we were supporting with our business.

--- On Wed, 4/1/09, MW [hidden email] wrote:

        
From: MW [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells
          
Second Life!
    
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 4:03 PM
While
Teravus did the april 1st joke, all of core (or certainly
most of it) knew about it. And we fully supported him
applying it. As he said it was never in a tagged version.

--- On Wed, 1/4/09, Teravus Ovares
[hidden email] wrote:
From: Teravus Ovares
[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab
Sells Second Life!
To: [hidden email],
[hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, 1 April, 2009, 9:59 PM

FYI, the avatar stick bug April 1 joke was my idea.

Also, I think it's really important to note that all of
the developers
of OpenSimulator have, since day one told people to avoid
SVN for
something that is production.   That includes anything that
 you want
to work.

April 1st is a tradition in OpenSimulator and on April 1st
a sense of
humor is required when using SVN.   We made sure that all
releases and
tags did *not* have the April fool's joke in it for
this very reason.
   We make releases and tag revisions not for our benefit,
but for
yours.

I know some people on this list don't spend time on
IRC, however, it's
been hinted upon since February that there would likely be
an April
fool's joke there.  For those that argue that most
people don't sit in
IRC, see two paragraphs up.

Now, if despite our warnings and hints, you continued to
use SVN, then
likely your avatar were stick-bugged.

I reiterate what has been said all along.   Direct SVN
revisions are
risky.  They've always been, and it's always bad
practice to use them
unless you've thoroughly looked them over.   A lot of
people thought
it was funny.  The people who did not were in
 the far minority.


Sincerely

Teravus


On 4/1/09, Jonathan Greenlee
[hidden email] wrote:
          
This was funny.
Vandalising everyone's avatar was not.

            
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM, S Collingwood
              
[hidden email]
          
wrote:
This is really BIG.  A takeover!  We can expect
panzer tanks rolling into shopping malls --
              
uniformed guards at sim
crossings
          
--  dogs and cats living together -- it's the
              
END!!
          
Linden Lab Sells Second Life!
              
                
http://www.secondlifeupdate.com/news-and-stuff/linden-lab-sells-
        
second-life/
    
--
              

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Re: Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

Frisby, Adam

My advice would be run both.

 

We don’t up the protocol version too often – so there’s nothing stopping you from running a handful of regions at trunk, and the remainder on stable. If you have customers involved, while we appreciate the feedback – I would probably say stick with stable there.

 

For your own testing purposes, running trunk isn’t a bad option – and it also gives you the flexibility that if something is broken majorly, you still have all your stable regions.

 

To be fair, the 0.6.3 release was not fantastic – the avatar bug should have probably been fixed before that was tagged. I think in future that complaint has registered pretty soundly and releases might be more thoroughly tested through release candidates.

 

Adam

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John Sheridan
Sent: Wednesday, 1 April 2009 6:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

 

Holy blog wars Batman!  I can see emotions are running high, so I thread lightly while writing this... 

For around six months now since I and my cohorts started building out our grid we've been more or less running off of the trunk.  We have a weekly update process wherein every Sunday after the commit emails stop flying by I'll shut down, back up, then update everything to that Sunday's SVN.  After the update is complete I'll go around in world, try a few tests to make sure that everything is in one piece and that basic functionality is there.  So far there have only been a handful of times that I've had to cancel or roll back an update due to broken functionality or warnings on the mailing lists that heavy changes were taking place.

As far as data and content are concerned, we all realize that this is alpha software and that certain instabilities may exist from week to week.  So far we've not had any major disasters as far as data and content save a few mangled, non-persisting, or overly persisting (where they won't go away) prims.  However in most cases workarounds were available and all users were told how to go about utilizing them.  As an added measure, just in case we rely on the weekly backups as well periodic dumps of our sims into OAR files. 

My primary reason for choosing this sort of procedure is so that while we are building, creating, and using the grid we can also contribute back to OpenSim in the form of bug reports and feedback.  (See a draft copy of our community standards for more on this:  http://www.pseudospace.net/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=60)

Regardless, we do consider our setup to be in quasi-production regardless of whatever minor glitches exist within the trunk.  As well, we are sure to make it quite clear to the few users that we do have (albeit not many as we do not yet have any completed or usable environments other then Ellis) that both OpenSim as the underlying software and Pseudospace as the service itself are under heavy development and could be unstable at times. 

Now as a software developer myself (albeit in a completely different realm then OpenSim as I do small scale database / windows apps) I can understand the risks of running untested software for production uses, however in this case I'm unsure as how to proceed.  We like contributing back to the community in whatever way we can, and also enjoy testing or riding the bleeding edge of the wave, yet after reading the prior posts I'm suddenly not sure if simply backing up, exporting, and rolling back is as safe as I thought.  From the standpoint of those who develop OpenSim, would you guys say what I'm doing is safe?

Thanks and good karma to you all,

 - John Sheridan / Orion Pseudo

Frisby, Adam wrote:

Honestly, I think there's some disconnects between people here that need to be addressed.
 
There are several different audiences here, and consequently several different reactions. There is the group of users attempting to put OpenSim into production environments - the harsher reactions I have seen tend to fall into this group. There is home users and hobbyists - the more positive reactions are from there.
 
To the production users, we do as a team find it unfortunate you were badly impacted, however as a group a large portion of work on OpenSim comes from personal developers without sponsorship. As a team, we also make absolutely no guarantees about trunk releases at all (infact we often make the opposite), the best practices we publish on our website very clearly state that production users should stick to a tagged release, and even then you are operating alpha code.
 
While we have generally been blessed with a reasonably well written and maintained codebase - trunk is not guaranteed to operate. Had there been an accident and the database became corrupted over time due to coding error - the outrage on this list would not have been as loud, however the impacts would have been significantly worsened.
 
Often, developers need to break code and features in order to improve things, if we cannot make trunk unstable, then the ability to develop and continually improve the codebase is restricted. One recent example was some avatar appearance issues that showed up after the MXP stack - that one I caused by removing code which erroneously assumed an avatar utilized the LLUDP Stack.
 
The short term result of that change was it broke avatar appearance in certain circumstances for a period of about 24 hours, the long term result was we got one step closer to more protocols, more neutrality and abstracted behaviour - all seen as good things to the codebase -- however another example of why we do not recommend anyone utilize trunk for production - it was still broken for a day, and this is a regular occurance.
 
For instance, a patch not too long ago adjusted the asset database format - while fine on local systems with small asset counts, in a production environment (specifically osgrid), it caused the entire database to melt. OSGrid accepts that risk since they are a testing grid - but to another operator, you would have applied that same patch just as easily as osgrid did if today's example is the norm.
 
Now the first response, I expect will be 'this was deliberate/vandalism' - yes there was an april fools joke in the codebase. However, please consider the following:
 
* The impact was for the most part completely negligible - no permanent changes were made, the code deactivates automatically, a patch is available on mantis (and is no longer in trunk anyway).
* You are running a version of the codebase that is *explicitly marked as 'not suitable for production'*.
* You are receiving a product for free under an extremely liberal license on behalf of the generosity of others.
 
That april fools joke was /only ever accessible in the developers and testers oriented release/. The intended audience was those two groups - developers and testers. Even the release candidate version had the offending code removed.
 
If you want to put OpenSim into production, fantastic - we like to see it being used. However when you then do not follow the advice we post clearly on the website in multiple places and put trunk into production, then no - the responsibility for failure rests upon your shoulders - trunk is /not safe for production/.
 
We do recognize the growing corporate demand for OpenSim - it's one of the reason that people such as Stefan have begun a back-patches version (post-fixes) which incorporates fixes into the last stable version. We spend the time maintaining that version because we recognise the need, it's also the reason we have been as a group moving towards more release-oriented packaging such as the installers and other easy-to-deploy packages.
 
If you are a corporate user putting OpenSim into production, make sure you have the following preparations:
 
1. Have a stable revision handy - currently that is 0.6.3-postfixes. Sometimes bugs show up randomly and break things badly. You should always have a backup system when working with OpenSim.
 
2. Use our postfix releases normally - sometimes a feature patch is very tempting to upgrade to, but then ask yourself what the cost might be? If stick figure avatars are going to cause you to have issues with clients - ask yourself what random object destruction might cause. It's happened in the past on trunk - I have no doubts major unintended bugs will sneak into trunk in future.
 
Only upgrade past post-fixes if you keep a very keen eye on SVN commit logs and are capable of testing hardened revisions.
 
3. Keep backups. Too many OpenSim installs do not do this. OAR works well for content, however a full database backup is recommend (this varies from tool to tool, know your system.)
 
4. Slow and steady is the name of the game. We actually keep several of our clients on a r6XXX release since we're able to confirm it works for their uses in the majority of cases and doesn't have unknown factors.
 
Regards,
 
Adam
 
 
  
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]-
[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Teravus Ovares
Sent: Wednesday, 1 April 2009 2:57 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second
Life!
 
One more reply to this.   Have a look at some positive responses.
 
http://osgrid.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1051&start=10
 
Sincrerely
 
Teravus
 
On 4/1/09, Teravus Ovares [hidden email] wrote:
    
Now now, lets be reasonable.     It's one thing to get April fooled..
 it's another to gloat about it.  Generally, I don't think it's a
      
good
    
idea to gloat.   It is what it is ..    and we learn and continue on.
 
Sincerely
 
Teravus
 
 
On 4/1/09, Skidz Tweak [hidden email] wrote:
      
Don't let the door hit you in the butt!
Everyone bitching about this only has theirselves to blame!
If you can't live with that fact, keep making up crap in your head
        
saying it
    
was someone else fault. That's it... the sweet feel of denial.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
        
Jonathan
    
Greenlee
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:07 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second
        
Life!
    
 
I want to make sure you understand why my company is now
        
withdrawing our
    
good will and support toward OpenSim,
And why we are withdrawing our financial support from several
        
OpenSim Grids
    
we were supporting with our business.
 
--- On Wed, 4/1/09, MW [hidden email] wrote:
 
        
From: MW [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells
          
Second Life!
    
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 4:03 PM
While
Teravus did the april 1st joke, all of core (or certainly
most of it) knew about it. And we fully supported him
applying it. As he said it was never in a tagged version.
 
--- On Wed, 1/4/09, Teravus Ovares
[hidden email] wrote:
From: Teravus Ovares
[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab
Sells Second Life!
To: [hidden email],
[hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, 1 April, 2009, 9:59 PM
 
FYI, the avatar stick bug April 1 joke was my idea.
 
Also, I think it's really important to note that all of
the developers
of OpenSimulator have, since day one told people to avoid
SVN for
something that is production.   That includes anything that
 you want
to work.
 
April 1st is a tradition in OpenSimulator and on April 1st
a sense of
humor is required when using SVN.   We made sure that all
releases and
tags did *not* have the April fool's joke in it for
this very reason.
   We make releases and tag revisions not for our benefit,
but for
yours.
 
I know some people on this list don't spend time on
IRC, however, it's
been hinted upon since February that there would likely be
an April
fool's joke there.  For those that argue that most
people don't sit in
IRC, see two paragraphs up.
 
Now, if despite our warnings and hints, you continued to
use SVN, then
likely your avatar were stick-bugged.
 
I reiterate what has been said all along.   Direct SVN
revisions are
risky.  They've always been, and it's always bad
practice to use them
unless you've thoroughly looked them over.   A lot of
people thought
it was funny.  The people who did not were in
 the far minority.
 
 
Sincerely
 
Teravus
 
 
On 4/1/09, Jonathan Greenlee
[hidden email] wrote:
          
 
This was funny.
Vandalising everyone's avatar was not.
 
            
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM, S Collingwood
              
[hidden email]
          
wrote:
This is really BIG.  A takeover!  We can expect
panzer tanks rolling into shopping malls --
              
uniformed guards at sim
crossings
          
--  dogs and cats living together -- it's the
              
END!!
          
Linden Lab Sells Second Life!
              
 
                
http://www.secondlifeupdate.com/news-and-stuff/linden-lab-sells-
        
second-life/
    
--
              
 
 
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Re: Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

justincc
In reply to this post by John Sheridan
John Sheridan wrote:

> Holy blog wars Batman!  I can see emotions are running high, so I thread
> lightly while writing this...
>
> For around six months now since I and my cohorts started building out
> our grid we've been more or less running off of the trunk.  We have a
> weekly update process wherein every Sunday after the commit emails stop
> flying by I'll shut down, back up, then update everything to that
> Sunday's SVN.  After the update is complete I'll go around in world, try
> a few tests to make sure that everything is in one piece and that basic
> functionality is there.  So far there have only been a handful of times
> that I've had to cancel or roll back an update due to broken
> functionality or warnings on the mailing lists that heavy changes were
> taking place.
>
> As far as data and content are concerned, we all realize that this is
> alpha software and that certain instabilities may exist from week to
> week.  So far we've not had any major disasters as far as data and
> content save a few mangled, non-persisting, or overly persisting (where
> they won't go away) prims.  However in most cases workarounds were
> available and all users were told how to go about utilizing them.  As an
> added measure, just in case we rely on the weekly backups as well
> periodic dumps of our sims into OAR files.
>
> My primary reason for choosing this sort of procedure is so that while
> we are building, creating, and using the grid we can also contribute
> back to OpenSim in the form of bug reports and feedback.  (See a draft
> copy of our community standards for more on this:  
> http://www.pseudospace.net/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=60)
>
> Regardless, we do consider our setup to be in quasi-production
> regardless of whatever minor glitches exist within the trunk.  As well,
> we are sure to make it quite clear to the few users that we do have
> (albeit not many as we do not yet have any completed or usable
> environments other then Ellis) that both OpenSim as the underlying
> software and Pseudospace as the service itself are under heavy
> development and could be unstable at times.
>
> Now as a software developer myself (albeit in a completely different
> realm then OpenSim as I do small scale database / windows apps) I can
> understand the risks of running untested software for production uses,
> however in this case I'm unsure as how to proceed.  We like contributing
> back to the community in whatever way we can, and also enjoy testing or
> riding the bleeding edge of the wave, yet after reading the prior posts
> I'm suddenly not sure if simply backing up, exporting, and rolling back
> is as safe as I thought.  From the standpoint of those who develop
> OpenSim, would you guys say what I'm doing is safe?

John, I would have to recommend that as you're running a semi-production system that you stick with tagged releases
rather than surf the bleeding edge (to mix metaphors).

>
> Thanks and good karma to you all,
>
>  - John Sheridan / Orion Pseudo
>
> Frisby, Adam wrote:
>> Honestly, I think there's some disconnects between people here that need to be addressed.
>>
>> There are several different audiences here, and consequently several different reactions. There is the group of users attempting to put OpenSim into production environments - the harsher reactions I have seen tend to fall into this group. There is home users and hobbyists - the more positive reactions are from there.
>>
>> To the production users, we do as a team find it unfortunate you were badly impacted, however as a group a large portion of work on OpenSim comes from personal developers without sponsorship. As a team, we also make absolutely no guarantees about trunk releases at all (infact we often make the opposite), the best practices we publish on our website very clearly state that production users should stick to a tagged release, and even then you are operating alpha code.
>>
>> While we have generally been blessed with a reasonably well written and maintained codebase - trunk is not guaranteed to operate. Had there been an accident and the database became corrupted over time due to coding error - the outrage on this list would not have been as loud, however the impacts would have been significantly worsened.
>>
>> Often, developers need to break code and features in order to improve things, if we cannot make trunk unstable, then the ability to develop and continually improve the codebase is restricted. One recent example was some avatar appearance issues that showed up after the MXP stack - that one I caused by removing code which erroneously assumed an avatar utilized the LLUDP Stack.
>>
>> The short term result of that change was it broke avatar appearance in certain circumstances for a period of about 24 hours, the long term result was we got one step closer to more protocols, more neutrality and abstracted behaviour - all seen as good things to the codebase -- however another example of why we do not recommend anyone utilize trunk for production - it was still broken for a day, and this is a regular occurance.
>>
>> For instance, a patch not too long ago adjusted the asset database format - while fine on local systems with small asset counts, in a production environment (specifically osgrid), it caused the entire database to melt. OSGrid accepts that risk since they are a testing grid - but to another operator, you would have applied that same patch just as easily as osgrid did if today's example is the norm.
>>
>> Now the first response, I expect will be 'this was deliberate/vandalism' - yes there was an april fools joke in the codebase. However, please consider the following:
>>
>> * The impact was for the most part completely negligible - no permanent changes were made, the code deactivates automatically, a patch is available on mantis (and is no longer in trunk anyway).
>> * You are running a version of the codebase that is *explicitly marked as 'not suitable for production'*.
>> * You are receiving a product for free under an extremely liberal license on behalf of the generosity of others.
>>
>> That april fools joke was /only ever accessible in the developers and testers oriented release/. The intended audience was those two groups - developers and testers. Even the release candidate version had the offending code removed.
>>
>> If you want to put OpenSim into production, fantastic - we like to see it being used. However when you then do not follow the advice we post clearly on the website in multiple places and put trunk into production, then no - the responsibility for failure rests upon your shoulders - trunk is /not safe for production/.
>>
>> We do recognize the growing corporate demand for OpenSim - it's one of the reason that people such as Stefan have begun a back-patches version (post-fixes) which incorporates fixes into the last stable version. We spend the time maintaining that version because we recognise the need, it's also the reason we have been as a group moving towards more release-oriented packaging such as the installers and other easy-to-deploy packages.
>>
>> If you are a corporate user putting OpenSim into production, make sure you have the following preparations:
>>
>> 1. Have a stable revision handy - currently that is 0.6.3-postfixes. Sometimes bugs show up randomly and break things badly. You should always have a backup system when working with OpenSim.
>>
>> 2. Use our postfix releases normally - sometimes a feature patch is very tempting to upgrade to, but then ask yourself what the cost might be? If stick figure avatars are going to cause you to have issues with clients - ask yourself what random object destruction might cause. It's happened in the past on trunk - I have no doubts major unintended bugs will sneak into trunk in future.
>>
>> Only upgrade past post-fixes if you keep a very keen eye on SVN commit logs and are capable of testing hardened revisions.
>>
>> 3. Keep backups. Too many OpenSim installs do not do this. OAR works well for content, however a full database backup is recommend (this varies from tool to tool, know your system.)
>>
>> 4. Slow and steady is the name of the game. We actually keep several of our clients on a r6XXX release since we're able to confirm it works for their uses in the majority of cases and doesn't have unknown factors.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Adam
>>
>>
>>  
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:opensim-users-
>>> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Teravus Ovares
>>> Sent: Wednesday, 1 April 2009 2:57 PM
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Cc: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second
>>> Life!
>>>
>>> One more reply to this.   Have a look at some positive responses.
>>>
>>> http://osgrid.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1051&start=10
>>>
>>> Sincrerely
>>>
>>> Teravus
>>>
>>> On 4/1/09, Teravus Ovares <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>    
>>>> Now now, lets be reasonable.     It's one thing to get April fooled..
>>>>  it's another to gloat about it.  Generally, I don't think it's a
>>>>      
>>> good
>>>    
>>>> idea to gloat.   It is what it is ..    and we learn and continue on.
>>>>
>>>> Sincerely
>>>>
>>>> Teravus
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 4/1/09, Skidz Tweak <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>      
>>>>> Don't let the door hit you in the butt!
>>>>> Everyone bitching about this only has theirselves to blame!
>>>>> If you can't live with that fact, keep making up crap in your head
>>>>>        
>>> saying it
>>>    
>>>>> was someone else fault. That's it... the sweet feel of denial.
>>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: [hidden email]
>>>>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
>>>>>        
>>> Jonathan
>>>    
>>>>> Greenlee
>>>>> Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:07 PM
>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second
>>>>>        
>>> Life!
>>>    
>>>>> I want to make sure you understand why my company is now
>>>>>        
>>> withdrawing our
>>>    
>>>>> good will and support toward OpenSim,
>>>>> And why we are withdrawing our financial support from several
>>>>>        
>>> OpenSim Grids
>>>    
>>>>> we were supporting with our business.
>>>>>
>>>>> --- On Wed, 4/1/09, MW <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>        
>>>>>> From: MW <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells
>>>>>>          
>>> Second Life!
>>>    
>>>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 4:03 PM
>>>>>> While
>>>>>> Teravus did the april 1st joke, all of core (or certainly
>>>>>> most of it) knew about it. And we fully supported him
>>>>>> applying it. As he said it was never in a tagged version.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --- On Wed, 1/4/09, Teravus Ovares
>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>> From: Teravus Ovares
>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab
>>>>>> Sells Second Life!
>>>>>> To: [hidden email],
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> Date: Wednesday, 1 April, 2009, 9:59 PM
>>>>>>
>>>>>> FYI, the avatar stick bug April 1 joke was my idea.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, I think it's really important to note that all of
>>>>>> the developers
>>>>>> of OpenSimulator have, since day one told people to avoid
>>>>>> SVN for
>>>>>> something that is production.   That includes anything that
>>>>>>  you want
>>>>>> to work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> April 1st is a tradition in OpenSimulator and on April 1st
>>>>>> a sense of
>>>>>> humor is required when using SVN.   We made sure that all
>>>>>> releases and
>>>>>> tags did *not* have the April fool's joke in it for
>>>>>> this very reason.
>>>>>>    We make releases and tag revisions not for our benefit,
>>>>>> but for
>>>>>> yours.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I know some people on this list don't spend time on
>>>>>> IRC, however, it's
>>>>>> been hinted upon since February that there would likely be
>>>>>> an April
>>>>>> fool's joke there.  For those that argue that most
>>>>>> people don't sit in
>>>>>> IRC, see two paragraphs up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Now, if despite our warnings and hints, you continued to
>>>>>> use SVN, then
>>>>>> likely your avatar were stick-bugged.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I reiterate what has been said all along.   Direct SVN
>>>>>> revisions are
>>>>>> risky.  They've always been, and it's always bad
>>>>>> practice to use them
>>>>>> unless you've thoroughly looked them over.   A lot of
>>>>>> people thought
>>>>>> it was funny.  The people who did not were in
>>>>>>  the far minority.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Teravus
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 4/1/09, Jonathan Greenlee
>>>>>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>>>          
>>>>>>> This was funny.
>>>>>>> Vandalising everyone's avatar was not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>            
>>>>>>>> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM, S Collingwood
>>>>>>>>              
>>>>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> This is really BIG.  A takeover!  We can expect
>>>>>>>> panzer tanks rolling into shopping malls --
>>>>>>>>              
>>>>>> uniformed guards at sim
>>>>>> crossings
>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>> --  dogs and cats living together -- it's the
>>>>>>>>              
>>>>>> END!!
>>>>>>          
>>>>>>>> Linden Lab Sells Second Life!
>>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>>>                
>>>>> http://www.secondlifeupdate.com/news-and-stuff/linden-lab-sells-
>>>>>        
>>> second-life/
>>>    
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>              
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>            
>>>>>>  https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>>>>          
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>>>>
>>>>>>          
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>>>
>>>>>        
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>    
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
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>>  
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

Frisby, Adam
My advice would be run both.

We don't up the protocol version too often - so there's nothing stopping you from running a handful of regions at trunk, and the remainder on stable. If you have customers involved, while we appreciate the feedback - I would probably say stick with stable there.

For your own testing purposes, running trunk isn't a bad option - and it also gives you the flexibility that if something is broken majorly, you still have all your stable regions.

To be fair, the 0.6.3 release was not fantastic - the avatar bug should have probably been fixed before that was tagged. I think in future that complaint has registered pretty soundly and releases might be more thoroughly tested through release candidates.

Adam

(original message removed since the combined whole crossed over belios's silly 40kb limit for ML messages)
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Re: Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

Frank W Sweet
In reply to this post by John Sheridan
John Sheridan wrote: From the standpoint of those who develop OpenSim,
would you guys say what I'm doing is safe?

You are not protected against a 2-1/2 week time-bomb unless you keep
prior releases going back 3 weeks. (And you are not protected against
a 2-1/2 month time-bomb unless you keep prior releases going back 3
months, etc.) You can test the living bejeezus out of each release to
no avail. When the time bomb goes off, it will still impact you,
because it was already hiding in all your prior releases.

FWS

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Re: Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

Teravus Ovares
I would still argue that OpenSimulator will follow a predictable path
and that there's no need to worry about 'time bombs'.   April 1st.

A joke on April 1st, in the Development SVN is really *really*
predictable.  In fact, many major companies had pranks done behind
closed doors internally. OpenSimulator is not 'closed doors', so you
get to see the pranks that you otherwise wouldn't.  You can see
exactly what's going on with it at any point.

As I said in previous e-mail, I would recommend using anything but
tagged releases in any production environment.

Now, considering April 1st is over..    and there's no other time
where the world pranks each other, I'd say that there is no need to
worry. Furthermore, considering that I added the stick-bug joke, I can
make that statement.  You can even read all of my commits very
carefully if you'd like.

If you want to get the commits in e-mail, there's a list for it here:
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-commits
This is a good way to examine every commit, I know I look at it often.

I would suggest that people, of whom this event turned off to
opensimulator, take another look.    Our history speaks for itself.

Sincerely

Teravus


On 4/1/09, Frank W Sweet <[hidden email]> wrote:

> John Sheridan wrote: From the standpoint of those who develop OpenSim,
> would you guys say what I'm doing is safe?
>
> You are not protected against a 2-1/2 week time-bomb unless you keep
> prior releases going back 3 weeks. (And you are not protected against
> a 2-1/2 month time-bomb unless you keep prior releases going back 3
> months, etc.) You can test the living bejeezus out of each release to
> no avail. When the time bomb goes off, it will still impact you,
> because it was already hiding in all your prior releases.
>
> FWS
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
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Re: Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

Teravus Ovares
sorry, getting tired;

As I said in previous e-mail, I would recommend *against* using anything but
tagged releases in any production environment.

Sincerely

Teravus

On 4/1/09, Teravus Ovares <[hidden email]> wrote:

> I would still argue that OpenSimulator will follow a predictable path
> and that there's no need to worry about 'time bombs'.   April 1st.
>
> A joke on April 1st, in the Development SVN is really *really*
> predictable.  In fact, many major companies had pranks done behind
> closed doors internally. OpenSimulator is not 'closed doors', so you
> get to see the pranks that you otherwise wouldn't.  You can see
> exactly what's going on with it at any point.
>
> As I said in previous e-mail, I would recommend using anything but
> tagged releases in any production environment.
>
> Now, considering April 1st is over..    and there's no other time
> where the world pranks each other, I'd say that there is no need to
> worry. Furthermore, considering that I added the stick-bug joke, I can
> make that statement.  You can even read all of my commits very
> carefully if you'd like.
>
> If you want to get the commits in e-mail, there's a list for it here:
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-commits
> This is a good way to examine every commit, I know I look at it often.
>
> I would suggest that people, of whom this event turned off to
> opensimulator, take another look.    Our history speaks for itself.
>
> Sincerely
>
> Teravus
>
>
> On 4/1/09, Frank W Sweet <[hidden email]> wrote:
> > John Sheridan wrote: From the standpoint of those who develop OpenSim,
> > would you guys say what I'm doing is safe?
> >
> > You are not protected against a 2-1/2 week time-bomb unless you keep
> > prior releases going back 3 weeks. (And you are not protected against
> > a 2-1/2 month time-bomb unless you keep prior releases going back 3
> > months, etc.) You can test the living bejeezus out of each release to
> > no avail. When the time bomb goes off, it will still impact you,
> > because it was already hiding in all your prior releases.
> >
> > FWS
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
>
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Re: Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

Charles Krinke-3
In reply to this post by John Sheridan
Well, there is another option.

Each Tuesday at "Office Hour" we pick a "recommended" version of OpenSim. This pick is based on running trunk snapshots on the various OSGrid plazas and the personal regions of half a dozen folks. We then publicize the "recommended" version, but obviously not publicly enough.

This week, the "recommended" version is r8849.

Perhaps one option is to get the "recommended" version number to you each week after "Office Hour", *or* you or one of your team could come to "Office Hour" and help us as we discuss the weeks software activities.

Charles


From: John Sheridan <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 1:31:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

Holy blog wars Batman!  I can see emotions are running high, so I thread lightly while writing this... 

For around six months now since I and my cohorts started building out our grid we've been more or less running off of the trunk.  We have a weekly update process wherein every Sunday after the commit emails stop flying by I'll shut down, back up, then update everything to that Sunday's SVN.  After the update is complete I'll go around in world, try a few tests to make sure that everything is in one piece and that basic functionality is there.  So far there have only been a handful of times that I've had to cancel or roll back an update due to broken functionality or warnings on the mailing lists that heavy changes were taking place.

As far as data and content are concerned, we all realize that this is alpha software and that certain instabilities may exist from week to week.  So far we've not had any major disasters as far as data and content save a few mangled, non-persisting, or overly persisting (where they won't go away) prims.  However in most cases workarounds were available and all users were told how to go about utilizing them.  As an added measure, just in case we rely on the weekly backups as well periodic dumps of our sims into OAR files. 

My primary reason for choosing this sort of procedure is so that while we are building, creating, and using the grid we can also contribute back to OpenSim in the form of bug reports and feedback.  (See a draft copy of our community standards for more on this:  http://www.pseudospace.net/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=60)

Regardless, we do consider our setup to be in quasi-production regardless of whatever minor glitches exist within the trunk.  As well, we are sure to make it quite clear to the few users that we do have (albeit not many as we do not yet have any completed or usable environments other then Ellis) that both OpenSim as the underlying software and Pseudospace as the service itself are under heavy development and could be unstable at times. 

Now as a software developer myself (albeit in a completely different realm then OpenSim as I do small scale database / windows apps) I can understand the risks of running untested software for production uses, however in this case I'm unsure as how to proceed.  We like contributing back to the community in whatever way we can, and also enjoy testing or riding the bleeding edge of the wave, yet after reading the prior posts I'm suddenly not sure if simply backing up, exporting, and rolling back is as safe as I thought.  From the standpoint of those who develop OpenSim, would you guys say what I'm doing is safe?

Thanks and good karma to you all,

 - John Sheridan / Orion Pseudo

Frisby, Adam wrote:
Honestly, I think there's some disconnects between people here that need to be addressed.

There are several different audiences here, and consequently several different reactions. There is the group of users attempting to put OpenSim into production environments - the harsher reactions I have seen tend to fall into this group. There is home users and hobbyists - the more positive reactions are from there.

To the production users, we do as a team find it unfortunate you were badly impacted, however as a group a large portion of work on OpenSim comes from personal developers without sponsorship. As a team, we also make absolutely no guarantees about trunk releases at all (infact we often make the opposite), the best practices we publish on our website very clearly state that production users should stick to a tagged release, and even then you are operating alpha code.

While we have generally been blessed with a reasonably well written and maintained codebase - trunk is not guaranteed to operate. Had there been an accident and the database became corrupted over time due to coding error - the outrage on this list would not have been as loud, however the impacts would have been significantly worsened.

Often, developers need to break code and features in order to improve things, if we cannot make trunk unstable, then the ability to develop and continually improve the codebase is restricted. One recent example was some avatar appearance issues that showed up after the MXP stack - that one I caused by removing code which erroneously assumed an avatar utilized the LLUDP Stack.

The short term result of that change was it broke avatar appearance in certain circumstances for a period of about 24 hours, the long term result was we got one step closer to more protocols, more neutrality and abstracted behaviour - all seen as good things to the codebase -- however another example of why we do not recommend anyone utilize trunk for production - it was still broken for a day, and this is a regular occurance.

For instance, a patch not too long ago adjusted the asset database format - while fine on local systems with small asset counts, in a production environment (specifically osgrid), it caused the entire database to melt. OSGrid accepts that risk since they are a testing grid - but to another operator, you would have applied that same patch just as easily as osgrid did if today's example is the norm.

Now the first response, I expect will be 'this was deliberate/vandalism' - yes there was an april fools joke in the codebase. However, please consider the following:

* The impact was for the most part completely negligible - no permanent changes were made, the code deactivates automatically, a patch is available on mantis (and is no longer in trunk anyway).
* You are running a version of the codebase that is *explicitly marked as 'not suitable for production'*.
* You are receiving a product for free under an extremely liberal license on behalf of the generosity of others.

That april fools joke was /only ever accessible in the developers and testers oriented release/. The intended audience was those two groups - developers and testers. Even the release candidate version had the offending code removed.

If you want to put OpenSim into production, fantastic - we like to see it being used. However when you then do not follow the advice we post clearly on the website in multiple places and put trunk into production, then no - the responsibility for failure rests upon your shoulders - trunk is /not safe for production/.

We do recognize the growing corporate demand for OpenSim - it's one of the reason that people such as Stefan have begun a back-patches version (post-fixes) which incorporates fixes into the last stable version. We spend the time maintaining that version because we recognise the need, it's also the reason we have been as a group moving towards more release-oriented packaging such as the installers and other easy-to-deploy packages.

If you are a corporate user putting OpenSim into production, make sure you have the following preparations:

1. Have a stable revision handy - currently that is 0.6.3-postfixes. Sometimes bugs show up randomly and break things badly. You should always have a backup system when working with OpenSim.

2. Use our postfix releases normally - sometimes a feature patch is very tempting to upgrade to, but then ask yourself what the cost might be? If stick figure avatars are going to cause you to have issues with clients - ask yourself what random object destruction might cause. It's happened in the past on trunk - I have no doubts major unintended bugs will sneak into trunk in future.

Only upgrade past post-fixes if you keep a very keen eye on SVN commit logs and are capable of testing hardened revisions.

3. Keep backups. Too many OpenSim installs do not do this. OAR works well for content, however a full database backup is recommend (this varies from tool to tool, know your system.)

4. Slow and steady is the name of the game. We actually keep several of our clients on a r6XXX release since we're able to confirm it works for their uses in the majority of cases and doesn't have unknown factors.

Regards,

Adam


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]-
[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Teravus Ovares
Sent: Wednesday, 1 April 2009 2:57 PM
To: [hidden email] Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life! One more reply to this. Have a look at some positive responses. http://osgrid.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1051&start=10 Sincrerely Teravus On 4/1/09, Teravus Ovares [hidden email] wrote:
Now now, lets be reasonable.     It's one thing to get April fooled..
it's another to gloat about it. Generally, I don't think it's a
good
idea to gloat.   It is what it is ..    and we learn and continue on.

Sincerely

Teravus


On 4/1/09, Skidz Tweak [hidden email] wrote:
Don't let the door hit you in the butt!
Everyone bitching about this only has theirselves to blame!
If you can't live with that fact, keep making up crap in your head
saying it
was someone else fault. That's it... the sweet feel of denial.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Jonathan
Greenlee
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:07 PM
To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second
Life!
I want to make sure you understand why my company is now
withdrawing our
good will and support toward OpenSim,
And why we are withdrawing our financial support from several
OpenSim Grids
we were supporting with our business.

--- On Wed, 4/1/09, MW [hidden email] wrote:

From: MW [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells
          
Second Life!
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 4:03 PM
While
Teravus did the april 1st joke, all of core (or certainly
most of it) knew about it. And we fully supported him
applying it. As he said it was never in a tagged version.

--- On Wed, 1/4/09, Teravus Ovares
[hidden email] wrote:
From: Teravus Ovares
[hidden email] Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life! To: [hidden email],
[hidden email] Date: Wednesday, 1 April, 2009, 9:59 PM FYI, the avatar stick bug April 1 joke was my idea. Also, I think it's really important to note that all of the developers of OpenSimulator have, since day one told people to avoid SVN for something that is production. That includes anything that you want to work. April 1st is a tradition in OpenSimulator and on April 1st a sense of humor is required when using SVN. We made sure that all releases and tags did *not* have the April fool's joke in it for this very reason. We make releases and tag revisions not for our benefit, but for yours. I know some people on this list don't spend time on IRC, however, it's been hinted upon since February that there would likely be an April fool's joke there. For those that argue that most people don't sit in IRC, see two paragraphs up. Now, if despite our warnings and hints, you continued to use SVN, then likely your avatar were stick-bugged. I reiterate what has been said all along. Direct SVN revisions are risky. They've always been, and it's always bad practice to use them unless you've thoroughly looked them over. A lot of people thought it was funny. The people who did not were in the far minority. Sincerely Teravus On 4/1/09, Jonathan Greenlee [hidden email] wrote:
This was funny.
Vandalising everyone's avatar was not.

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM, S Collingwood
[hidden email]
          
wrote:
This is really BIG. A takeover! We can expect
panzer tanks rolling into shopping malls --
uniformed guards at sim
crossings
--  dogs and cats living together -- it's the
END!!
Linden Lab Sells Second Life!
                
http://www.secondlifeupdate.com/news-and-stuff/linden-lab-sells-
second-life/
--
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Re: Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!

Tom Willans
In reply to this post by mw-2
Ok Guys, I think the message that the joke did not go down well in some quarters  has been received, and its impact.

It is always a danger with April 1 jokes. It is clear that there was no malicious intent and attempts were made to ensure it did not get into the tagged versions. It is a compliment to all those working on OpenSim that people are now beginning to use OS for serious uses even if it is still "alpha" software - that is what we want. OpenSim is maturing and everyone who has contributed should be proud of that. I guess everyone is now learning about this new phase - including users, developers, testers and backers. Lets all learn from this.

We have now substantially ported the Sloodle project, for instance, from SL to OpenSim and this would not have been possible even 6 months ago. This did help identify a bug and that was rectified very quickly to help us  - so thank you to everyone who made this possible. 

Regards
Tom


On 1 Apr 2009, at 22:03, MW wrote:

While Teravus did the april 1st joke, all of core (or certainly most of it) knew about it. And we fully supported him applying it. As he said it was never in a tagged version.

--- On Wed, 1/4/09, Teravus Ovares <[hidden email]> wrote:
From: Teravus Ovares <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!
To: [hidden email], [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, 1 April, 2009, 9:59 PM

FYI, the avatar stick bug April 1 joke was my idea.

Also, I think it's really important to note that all of the developers
of OpenSimulator have, since day one told people to avoid SVN for
something that is production. That includes anything that you want
to work.

April 1st is a tradition in OpenSimulator and on April 1st a sense of
humor is required when using SVN. We made sure that all releases and
tags did *not* have the April fool's joke in it for this very reason.
We make releases and tag revisions not for our benefit, but for
yours.

I know some people on this list don't spend time on IRC, however, it's
been hinted upon since February that there would likely be an April
fool's joke there. For those that argue that most people don't sit in
IRC, see two paragraphs up.

Now, if despite our warnings and hints, you continued to use SVN, then
likely your avatar were stick-bugged.

I reiterate what has been said all along. Direct SVN revisions are
risky. They've always been, and it's always bad practice to use them
unless you've thoroughly looked them over. A lot of people thought
it was funny. The people who did not were in the far minority.


Sincerely

Teravus


On 4/1/09, Jonathan Greenlee <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> This was funny.
> Vandalising everyone's avatar was not.
>
> > On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM, S Collingwood
<[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> > This is really BIG. A takeover! We can expect
> > panzer tanks rolling into shopping malls -- uniformed guards at sim
crossings
> > -- dogs and cats living together -- it's the END!!
> >
> > Linden Lab Sells Second Life!
> > >
> > >
http://www.secondlifeupdate.com/news-and-stuff/linden-lab-sells-second-life/
> > --
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
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Tom Willans 
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Re: Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

John Sheridan
In reply to this post by Charles Krinke-3
Sorry - message got bounced back due to size, had to chop the body...

John Sheridan wrote:
Thank you Charles, Teravus, Adam, and Justin for your input. 

At the moment, we do not have any paying customers and its likely going to be some time before we're able to accommodate such creatures.  Mainly, our plan for now is to simply provide a free access grid to various genre of roleplayers and then further down the road once both OpenSim and my add-ons (mostly web and unix stuff) are ready enough (as well after we have some environments operational) we were planning on subsidizing the server costs by offering land rentals in each environment for players to use as their in-character homes. Another possibility after the fact may be to begin renting clusters of simulators for others to add in their own roleplay environments.  As far as in-world assets are concerned, we're modeling everything after the Arcadia Asylum approach where our in-world currency will have no real world value and everything should be available preferably with full permissions for no fee.  In all for now we're not expecting to nor are we seeking to generate a profit.  However in the unlikely event that we do wind up generating a profit we would likely be accepting resumes for a developer! :)

As for riding the bleeding edge (and gosh that sounds gruesome!) going by everyone's input I'd think for now since we're still building it sounds relatively safe for us to continue that route provided we keep in step with the backups and pay attention to warnings on the mailing list.  As well stick to the recommended releases that Charles alluded to.  But, in future once we start seeing heavy loads and possibly start pulling in some kind of income to pay for all of this we may need to step back a bit and only keep one cluster on the bleeding edge for testing (probably our gateway / entry point Ellis) while the others would remain on the stable releases.  Although, be that as it may we've not had to submit many bug reports recently - GOOD JOB GANG! :)

As for attending Office Hours, yes I'll admit it I'm a night dweller! But for the sake of contributing I'll do my best to crawl out of bed and drag my pajama ridden zombified self over to OSGrid at 3:00 in the afternoon.  Now that I realize that its Tuesday at 3:00 pm my time and not Monday at 11:00 am pacific. 

Thank you all once again...  Live long and prosper!  \\//

 - John / Orion



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Re: Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

justincc
John Sheridan wrote:

> Sorry - message got bounced back due to size, had to chop the body...
>
> John Sheridan wrote:
>> Thank you Charles, Teravus, Adam, and Justin for your input.
>>
>> At the moment, we do not have any paying customers and its likely
>> going to be some time before we're able to accommodate such
>> creatures.  Mainly, our plan for now is to simply provide a free
>> access grid to various genre of roleplayers and then further down the
>> road once both OpenSim and my add-ons (mostly web and unix stuff) are
>> ready enough (as well after we have some environments operational) we
>> were planning on subsidizing the server costs by offering land rentals
>> in each environment for players to use as their in-character homes.
>> Another possibility after the fact may be to begin renting clusters of
>> simulators for others to add in their own roleplay environments.  As
>> far as in-world assets are concerned, we're modeling everything after
>> the Arcadia Asylum approach where our in-world currency will have no
>> real world value and everything should be available preferably with
>> full permissions for no fee.  In all for now we're not expecting to
>> nor are we seeking to generate a profit.  However in the unlikely
>> event that we do wind up generating a profit we would likely be
>> accepting resumes for a developer! :)
>>
>> As for riding the bleeding edge (and gosh that sounds gruesome!) going
>> by everyone's input I'd think for now since we're still building it
>> sounds relatively safe for us to continue that route provided we keep
>> in step with the backups and pay attention to warnings on the mailing
>> list.  As well stick to the recommended releases that Charles alluded
>> to.  But, in future once we start seeing heavy loads and possibly
>> start pulling in some kind of income to pay for all of this we may
>> need to step back a bit and only keep one cluster on the bleeding edge
>> for testing (probably our gateway / entry point Ellis) while the
>> others would remain on the stable releases.  Although, be that as it
>> may we've not had to submit many bug reports recently - GOOD JOB GANG! :)

Sounds very sensible, John, and the grid sounds like a lot of fun :).

Maybe the blessing in disguise from all this is that better 'best practices' for managing grids and an improved OpenSim
release process will emerge.

>>
>> As for attending Office Hours, yes I'll admit it I'm a night dweller!
>> But for the sake of contributing I'll do my best to crawl out of bed
>> and drag my pajama ridden zombified self over to OSGrid at 3:00 in the
>> afternoon.  Now that I realize that its Tuesday at 3:00 pm my time and
>> not Monday at 11:00 am pacific.

What kind of job do you do that let's you sleep in all day? :)

I look forward to seeing you at the meetings too. There's always been talk of setting up an extra Office Hours meeting
at time more suitable for people such as yourself.  This hasn't happened yet but maybe it will if enough demand comes about.

>>
>> Thank you all once again...  Live long and prosper!  \\//
>>

Indeed \\//

>>  - John / Orion
>>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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justincc
Justin Clark-Casey
http://justincc.wordpress.com
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Re: Safe use of OpenSim

John Sheridan
Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
John Sheridan wrote:
  
Sorry - message got bounced back due to size, had to chop the body...

John Sheridan wrote:
    
Thank you Charles, Teravus, Adam, and Justin for your input. 

At the moment, we do not have any paying customers and its likely 
going to be some time before we're able to accommodate such 
creatures.  Mainly, our plan for now is to simply provide a free 
access grid to various genre of roleplayers and then further down the 
road once both OpenSim and my add-ons (mostly web and unix stuff) are 
ready enough (as well after we have some environments operational) we 
were planning on subsidizing the server costs by offering land rentals 
in each environment for players to use as their in-character homes. 
Another possibility after the fact may be to begin renting clusters of 
simulators for others to add in their own roleplay environments.  As 
far as in-world assets are concerned, we're modeling everything after 
the Arcadia Asylum approach where our in-world currency will have no 
real world value and everything should be available preferably with 
full permissions for no fee.  In all for now we're not expecting to 
nor are we seeking to generate a profit.  However in the unlikely 
event that we do wind up generating a profit we would likely be 
accepting resumes for a developer! :)

As for riding the bleeding edge (and gosh that sounds gruesome!) going 
by everyone's input I'd think for now since we're still building it 
sounds relatively safe for us to continue that route provided we keep 
in step with the backups and pay attention to warnings on the mailing 
list.  As well stick to the recommended releases that Charles alluded 
to.  But, in future once we start seeing heavy loads and possibly 
start pulling in some kind of income to pay for all of this we may 
need to step back a bit and only keep one cluster on the bleeding edge 
for testing (probably our gateway / entry point Ellis) while the 
others would remain on the stable releases.  Although, be that as it 
may we've not had to submit many bug reports recently - GOOD JOB GANG! :)
      

Sounds very sensible, John, and the grid sounds like a lot of fun :).

Maybe the blessing in disguise from all this is that better 'best practices' for managing grids and an improved OpenSim 
release process will emerge.
  

Yikes!  Sorry for taking so long to respond.  I was so busy with work stuff that this is the first chance I've had to check my email.  And I totally agree, as with everything in life be it good or bad in the end at least some good and constructive can come from it. :)
  
As for attending Office Hours, yes I'll admit it I'm a night dweller! 
But for the sake of contributing I'll do my best to crawl out of bed 
and drag my pajama ridden zombified self over to OSGrid at 3:00 in the 
afternoon.  Now that I realize that its Tuesday at 3:00 pm my time and 
not Monday at 11:00 am pacific. 
      

What kind of job do you do that let's you sleep in all day? :)
  
As I mentioned in my last email I write small scale database / windows applications, but to give a bit more info I work for the student lab at the local community college.  For the past 7 years I've been writing and maintaining a piece of software called Lab Manager which is a student lab management system that tracks lab use, appointments, help requests, inventory / resource use, employee / student records, and payroll / scheduling along with statistical reporting for metrics based on all of those. 

At the moment however, the entire system is a pretty big mess and is all but held together with band aids.  The original sections were written by my predecessor using a series of overly complicated spreadsheets and badly designed Access databases augmented with VBA macros while the sections I've written were done in VB6 and VB.net.  Meanwhile since Office 2007 was installed half of the system has taken a big hit stability wise meanwhile the sections I've written face total annihilation compatibility wise once  IT decides to upgrade everyone to either Vista or more likely Windows 7. 

Luckily though, I do have a plan in place to basically rebuild the entire system into a more stable platform that has less built in obsolescence.  After my experiences with OpenSim and the bit of puttering around I've done inside the code base I've realized that C# as a replacement for VB (or possibly Mono if I can get WinForms to work in DLL form without having to install anything) along with SQLite to replace MS Access look to be a match made in heaven for our purposes.  As for releasing the project, I've been gently dropping hints to the lab heads about the possibility of open sourcing the whole thing once the new code base and structure have been established and then possibly turning it into a team effort similar to how you guys operate only involving student labs at other institutions who are likely to have developers or at least development capable people on staff. 

As for my strange and almost vampire like schedule, lets just say that they're pretty flexible with my hours at the lab.  Just as long as I keep showing them steady results they don't really mind if I put in some late night hours from home.  :)
I look forward to seeing you at the meetings too. There's always been talk of setting up an extra Office Hours meeting 
at time more suitable for people such as yourself.  This hasn't happened yet but maybe it will if enough demand comes about.

  
Thank you all once again...  Live long and prosper!  \\//

      

Indeed \\//

  
 - John / Orion

      
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Re: Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

Stefan Andersson
In reply to this post by Frisby, Adam
Actually, had I been informed of a fix (rev or patch) to that bug, I (or you, or we) could have put it into 0.6.3-post-fixes and poked people to 'update' that branch. Would probably had gone some way.

In tortoise, It's really simple to merge a certain revision to another wc. Right-click on trunk, choose log, locate the rev, right click on the rev, choose 'merge revision to...' and locate the post-fixes wc (you need them both checked out) and press 'ok'. It will merge the rev into the post-fixes, taking the history of both branches into account when auto-merging.
 
You might experience conflicts, but in a surprising number of cases you wont.

Best regards,
Stefan Andersson
Tribal Media AB



 

From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 21:36:11 -0400
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

My advice would be run both.

 

We don’t up the protocol version too often – so there’s nothing stopping you from running a handful of regions at trunk, and the remainder on stable. If you have customers involved, while we appreciate the feedback – I would probably say stick with stable there.

 

For your own testing purposes, running trunk isn’t a bad option – and it also gives you the flexibility that if something is broken majorly, you still have all your stable regions.

 

To be fair, the 0.6.3 release was not fantastic – the avatar bug should have probably been fixed before that was tagged. I think in future that complaint has registered pretty soundly and releases might be more thoroughly tested through release candidates.

 

Adam

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of John Sheridan
Sent: Wednesday, 1 April 2009 6:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

 

Holy blog wars Batman!  I can see emotions are running high, so I thread lightly while writing this... 

For around six months now since I and my cohorts started building out our grid we've been more or less running off of the trunk.  We have a weekly update process wherein every Sunday after the commit emails stop flying by I'll shut down, back up, then update everything to that Sunday's SVN.  After the update is complete I'll go around in world, try a few tests to make sure that everything is in one piece and that basic functionality is there.  So far there have only been a handful of times that I've had to cancel or roll back an update due to broken functionality or warnings on the mailing lists that heavy changes were taking place.

As far as data and content are concerned, we all realize that this is alpha software and that certain instabilities may exist from week to week.  So far we've not had any major disasters as far as data and content save a few mangled, non-persisting, or overly persisting (where they won't go away) prims.  However in most cases workarounds were available and all users were told how to go about utilizing them.  As an added measure, just in case we rely on the weekly backups as well periodic dumps of our sims into OAR files. 

My primary reason for choosing this sort of procedure is so that while we are building, creating, and using the grid we can also contribute back to OpenSim in the form of bug reports and feedback.  (See a draft copy of our community standards for more on this:  http://www.pseudospace.net/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=60)

Regardless, we do consider our setup to be in quasi-production regardless of whatever minor glitches exist within the trunk.  As well, we are sure to make it quite clear to the few users that we do have (albeit not many as we do not yet have any completed or usable environments other then Ellis) that both OpenSim as the underlying software and Pseudospace as the service itself are under heavy development and could be unstable at times. 

Now as a software developer myself (albeit in a completely different realm then OpenSim as I do small scale database / windows apps) I can understand the risks of running untested software for production uses, however in this case I'm unsure as how to proceed.  We like contributing back to the community in whatever way we can, and also enjoy testing or riding the bleeding edge of the wave, yet after reading the prior posts I'm suddenly not sure if simply backing up, exporting, and rolling back is as safe as I thought.  From the standpoint of those who develop OpenSim, would you guys say what I'm doing is safe?

Thanks and good karma to you all,

 - John Sheridan / Orion Pseudo

Frisby, Adam wrote:

Honestly, I think there's some disconnects between people here that need to be addressed.
 
There are several different audiences here, and consequently several different reactions. There is the group of users attempting to put OpenSim into production environments - the harsher reactions I have seen tend to fall into this group. There is home users and hobbyists - the more positive reactions are from there.
 
To the production users, we do as a team find it unfortunate you were badly impacted, however as a group a large portion of work on OpenSim comes from personal developers without sponsorship. As a team, we also make absolutely no guarantees about trunk releases at all (infact we often make the opposite), the best practices we publish on our website very clearly state that production users should stick to a tagged release, and even then you are operating alpha code.
 
While we have generally been blessed with a reasonably well written and maintained codebase - trunk is not guaranteed to operate. Had there been an accident and the database became corrupted over time due to coding error - the outrage on this list would not have been as loud, however the impacts would have been significantly worsened.
 
Often, developers need to break code and features in order to improve things, if we cannot make trunk unstable, then the ability to develop and continually improve the codebase is restricted. One recent example was some avatar appearance issues that showed up after the MXP stack - that one I caused by removing code which erroneously assumed an avatar utilized the LLUDP Stack.
 
The short term result of that change was it broke avatar appearance in certain circumstances for a period of about 24 hours, the long term result was we got one step closer to more protocols, more neutrality and abstracted behaviour - all seen as good things to the codebase -- however another example of why we do not recommend anyone utilize trunk for production - it was still broken for a day, and this is a regular occurance.
 
For instance, a patch not too long ago adjusted the asset database format - while fine on local systems with small asset counts, in a production environment (specifically osgrid), it caused the entire database to melt. OSGrid accepts that risk since they are a testing grid - but to another operator, you would have applied that same patch just as easily as osgrid did if today's example is the norm.
 
Now the first response, I expect will be 'this was deliberate/vandalism' - yes there was an april fools joke in the codebase. However, please consider the following:
 
* The impact was for the most part completely negligible - no permanent changes were made, the code deactivates automatically, a patch is available on mantis (and is no longer in trunk anyway).
* You are running a version of the codebase that is *explicitly marked as 'not suitable for production'*.
* You are receiving a product for free under an extremely liberal license on behalf of the generosity of others.
 
That april fools joke was /only ever accessible in the developers and testers oriented release/. The intended audience was those two groups - developers and testers. Even the release candidate version had the offending code removed.
 
If you want to put OpenSim into production, fantastic - we like to see it being used. However when you then do not follow the advice we post clearly on the website in multiple places and put trunk into production, then no - the responsibility for failure rests upon your shoulders - trunk is /not safe for production/.
 
We do recognize the growing corporate demand for OpenSim - it's one of the reason that people such as Stefan have begun a back-patches version (post-fixes) which incorporates fixes into the last stable version. We spend the time maintaining that version because we recognise the need, it's also the reason we have been as a group moving towards more release-oriented packaging such as the installers and other easy-to-deploy packages.
 
If you are a corporate user putting OpenSim into production, make sure you have the following preparations:
 
1. Have a stable revision handy - currently that is 0.6.3-postfixes. Sometimes bugs show up randomly and break things badly. You should always have a backup system when working with OpenSim.
 
2. Use our postfix releases normally - sometimes a feature patch is very tempting to upgrade to, but then ask yourself what the cost might be? If stick figure avatars are going to cause you to have issues with clients - ask yourself what random object destruction might cause. It's happened in the past on trunk - I have no doubts major unintended bugs will sneak into trunk in future.
 
Only upgrade past post-fixes if you keep a very keen eye on SVN commit logs and are capable of testing hardened revisions.
 
3. Keep backups. Too many OpenSim installs do not do this. OAR works well for content, however a full database backup is recommend (this varies from tool to tool, know your system.)
 
4. Slow and steady is the name of the game. We actually keep several of our clients on a r6XXX release since we're able to confirm it works for their uses in the majority of cases and doesn't have unknown factors.
 
Regards,
 
Adam
 
 
  
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]-
[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Teravus Ovares
Sent: Wednesday, 1 April 2009 2:57 PM
To: [hidden email]
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second
Life!
 
One more reply to this.   Have a look at some positive responses.
 
http://osgrid.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1051&start=10
 
Sincrerely
 
Teravus
 
On 4/1/09, Teravus Ovares [hidden email] wrote:
    
Now now, lets be reasonable.     It's one thing to get April fooled..
 it's another to gloat about it.  Generally, I don't think it's a
      
good
    
idea to gloat.   It is what it is ..    and we learn and continue on.
 
Sincerely
 
Teravus
 
 
On 4/1/09, Skidz Tweak [hidden email] wrote:
      
Don't let the door hit you in the butt!
Everyone bitching about this only has theirselves to blame!
If you can't live with that fact, keep making up crap in your head
        
saying it
    
was someone else fault. That's it... the sweet feel of denial.
 
-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email]
[[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
        
Jonathan
    
Greenlee
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:07 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second
        
Life!
    
 
I want to make sure you understand why my company is now
        
withdrawing our
    
good will and support toward OpenSim,
And why we are withdrawing our financial support from several
        
OpenSim Grids
    
we were supporting with our business.
 
--- On Wed, 4/1/09, MW [hidden email] wrote:
 
        
From: MW [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells
          
Second Life!
    
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 4:03 PM
While
Teravus did the april 1st joke, all of core (or certainly
most of it) knew about it. And we fully supported him
applying it. As he said it was never in a tagged version.
 
--- On Wed, 1/4/09, Teravus Ovares
[hidden email] wrote:
From: Teravus Ovares
[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab
Sells Second Life!
To: [hidden email],
[hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, 1 April, 2009, 9:59 PM
 
FYI, the avatar stick bug April 1 joke was my idea.
 
Also, I think it's really important to note that all of
the developers
of OpenSimulator have, since day one told people to avoid
SVN for
something that is production.   That includes anything that
 you want
to work.
 
April 1st is a tradition in OpenSimulator and on April 1st
a sense of
humor is required when using SVN.   We made sure that all
releases and
tags did *not* have the April fool's joke in it for
this very reason.
   We make releases and tag revisions not for our benefit,
but for
yours.
 
I know some people on this list don't spend time on
IRC, however, it's
been hinted upon since February that there would likely be
an April
fool's joke there.  For those that argue that most
people don't sit in
IRC, see two paragraphs up.
 
Now, if despite our warnings and hints, you continued to
use SVN, then
likely your avatar were stick-bugged.
 
I reiterate what has been said all along.   Direct SVN
revisions are
risky.  They've always been, and it's always bad
practice to use them
unless you've thoroughly looked them over.   A lot of
people thought
it was funny.  The people who did not were in
 the far minority.
 
 
Sincerely
 
Teravus
 
 
On 4/1/09, Jonathan Greenlee
[hidden email] wrote:
          
 
This was funny.
Vandalising everyone's avatar was not.
 
            
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM, S Collingwood
              
[hidden email]
          
wrote:
This is really BIG.  A takeover!  We can expect
panzer tanks rolling into shopping malls --
              
uniformed guards at sim
crossings
          
--  dogs and cats living together -- it's the
              
END!!
          
Linden Lab Sells Second Life!
              
 
                
http://www.secondlifeupdate.com/news-and-stuff/linden-lab-sells-
        
second-life/
    
--
              
 
 
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Re: Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

Stefan Andersson
In reply to this post by Charles Krinke-3
Charles,
 
that's just excellent. Where do you publish it?
 
Best regards,
Stefan Andersson
Tribal Media AB



 

Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:22:24 -0700
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

Well, there is another option.

Each Tuesday at "Office Hour" we pick a "recommended" version of OpenSim. This pick is based on running trunk snapshots on the various OSGrid plazas and the personal regions of half a dozen folks. We then publicize the "recommended" version, but obviously not publicly enough.

This week, the "recommended" version is r8849.

Perhaps one option is to get the "recommended" version number to you each week after "Office Hour", *or* you or one of your team could come to "Office Hour" and help us as we discuss the weeks software activities.

Charles


From: John Sheridan <[hidden email]>
To: [hidden email]
Sent: Thursday, April 2, 2009 1:31:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"

Holy blog wars Batman!  I can see emotions are running high, so I thread lightly while writing this... 

For around six months now since I and my cohorts started building out our grid we've been more or less running off of the trunk.  We have a weekly update process wherein every Sunday after the commit emails stop flying by I'll shut down, back up, then update everything to that Sunday's SVN.  After the update is complete I'll go around in world, try a few tests to make sure that everything is in one piece and that basic functionality is there.  So far there have only been a handful of times that I've had to cancel or roll back an update due to broken functionality or warnings on the mailing lists that heavy changes were taking place.

As far as data and content are concerned, we all realize that this is alpha software and that certain instabilities may exist from week to week.  So far we've not had any major disasters as far as data and content save a few mangled, non-persisting, or overly persisting (where they won't go away) prims.  However in most cases workarounds were available and all users were told how to go about utilizing them.  As an added measure, just in case we rely on the weekly backups as well periodic dumps of our sims into OAR files. 

My primary reason for choosing this sort of procedure is so that while we are building, creating, and using the grid we can also contribute back to OpenSim in the form of bug reports and feedback.  (See a draft copy of our community standards for more on this:  http://www.pseudospace.net/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=56&Itemid=60)

Regardless, we do consider our setup to be in quasi-production regardless of whatever minor glitches exist within the trunk.  As well, we are sure to make it quite clear to the few users that we do have (albeit not many as we do not yet have any completed or usable environments other then Ellis) that both OpenSim as the underlying software and Pseudospace as the service itself are under heavy development and could be unstable at times. 

Now as a software developer myself (albeit in a completely different realm then OpenSim as I do small scale database / windows apps) I can understand the risks of running untested software for production uses, however in this case I'm unsure as how to proceed.  We like contributing back to the community in whatever way we can, and also enjoy testing or riding the bleeding edge of the wave, yet after reading the prior posts I'm suddenly not sure if simply backing up, exporting, and rolling back is as safe as I thought.  From the standpoint of those who develop OpenSim, would you guys say what I'm doing is safe?

Thanks and good karma to you all,

 - John Sheridan / Orion Pseudo

Frisby, Adam wrote:
Honestly, I think there's some disconnects between people here that need to be addressed.

There are several different audiences here, and consequently several different reactions. There is the group of users attempting to put OpenSim into production environments - the harsher reactions I have seen tend to fall into this group. There is home users and hobbyists - the more positive reactions are from there.

To the production users, we do as a team find it unfortunate you were badly impacted, however as a group a large portion of work on OpenSim comes from personal developers without sponsorship. As a team, we also make absolutely no guarantees about trunk releases at all (infact we often make the opposite), the best practices we publish on our website very clearly state that production users should stick to a tagged release, and even then you are operating alpha code.

While we have generally been blessed with a reasonably well written and maintained codebase - trunk is not guaranteed to operate. Had there been an accident and the database became corrupted over time due to coding error - the outrage on this list would not have been as loud, however the impacts would have been significantly worsened.

Often, developers need to break code and features in order to improve things, if we cannot make trunk unstable, then the ability to develop and continually improve the codebase is restricted. One recent example was some avatar appearance issues that showed up after the MXP stack - that one I caused by removing code which erroneously assumed an avatar utilized the LLUDP Stack.

The short term result of that change was it broke avatar appearance in certain circumstances for a period of about 24 hours, the long term result was we got one step closer to more protocols, more neutrality and abstracted behaviour - all seen as good things to the codebase -- however another example of why we do not recommend anyone utilize trunk for production - it was still broken for a day, and this is a regular occurance.

For instance, a patch not too long ago adjusted the asset database format - while fine on local systems with small asset counts, in a production environment (specifically osgrid), it caused the entire database to melt. OSGrid accepts that risk since they are a testing grid - but to another operator, you would have applied that same patch just as easily as osgrid did if today's example is the norm.

Now the first response, I expect will be 'this was deliberate/vandalism' - yes there was an april fools joke in the codebase. However, please consider the following:

* The impact was for the most part completely negligible - no permanent changes were made, the code deactivates automatically, a patch is available on mantis (and is no longer in trunk anyway).
* You are running a version of the codebase that is *explicitly marked as 'not suitable for production'*.
* You are receiving a product for free under an extremely liberal license on behalf of the generosity of others.

That april fools joke was /only ever accessible in the developers and testers oriented release/. The intended audience was those two groups - developers and testers. Even the release candidate version had the offending code removed.

If you want to put OpenSim into production, fantastic - we like to see it being used. However when you then do not follow the advice we post clearly on the website in multiple places and put trunk into production, then no - the responsibility for failure rests upon your shoulders - trunk is /not safe for production/.

We do recognize the growing corporate demand for OpenSim - it's one of the reason that people such as Stefan have begun a back-patches version (post-fixes) which incorporates fixes into the last stable version. We spend the time maintaining that version because we recognise the need, it's also the reason we have been as a group moving towards more release-oriented packaging such as the installers and other easy-to-deploy packages.

If you are a corporate user putting OpenSim into production, make sure you have the following preparations:

1. Have a stable revision handy - currently that is 0.6.3-postfixes. Sometimes bugs show up randomly and break things badly. You should always have a backup system when working with OpenSim.

2. Use our postfix releases normally - sometimes a feature patch is very tempting to upgrade to, but then ask yourself what the cost might be? If stick figure avatars are going to cause you to have issues with clients - ask yourself what random object destruction might cause. It's happened in the past on trunk - I have no doubts major unintended bugs will sneak into trunk in future.

Only upgrade past post-fixes if you keep a very keen eye on SVN commit logs and are capable of testing hardened revisions.

3. Keep backups. Too many OpenSim installs do not do this. OAR works well for content, however a full database backup is recommend (this varies from tool to tool, know your system.)

4. Slow and steady is the name of the game. We actually keep several of our clients on a r6XXX release since we're able to confirm it works for their uses in the majority of cases and doesn't have unknown factors.

Regards,

Adam


-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]-
[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Teravus Ovares
Sent: Wednesday, 1 April 2009 2:57 PM
To: [hidden email] Cc: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life! One more reply to this. Have a look at some positive responses. http://osgrid.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1051&start=10 Sincrerely Teravus On 4/1/09, Teravus Ovares [hidden email] wrote:
Now now, lets be reasonable.     It's one thing to get April fooled..
it's another to gloat about it. Generally, I don't think it's a
good
idea to gloat.   It is what it is ..    and we learn and continue on.

Sincerely

Teravus


On 4/1/09, Skidz Tweak [hidden email] wrote:
Don't let the door hit you in the butt!
Everyone bitching about this only has theirselves to blame!
If you can't live with that fact, keep making up crap in your head
saying it
was someone else fault. That's it... the sweet feel of denial.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Jonathan
Greenlee
Sent: Wednesday, April 01, 2009 4:07 PM
To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second
Life!
I want to make sure you understand why my company is now
withdrawing our
good will and support toward OpenSim,
And why we are withdrawing our financial support from several
OpenSim Grids
we were supporting with our business.

--- On Wed, 4/1/09, MW [hidden email] wrote:

From: MW [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells
          
Second Life!
To: [hidden email]
Date: Wednesday, April 1, 2009, 4:03 PM
While
Teravus did the april 1st joke, all of core (or certainly
most of it) knew about it. And we fully supported him
applying it. As he said it was never in a tagged version.

--- On Wed, 1/4/09, Teravus Ovares
[hidden email] wrote:
From: Teravus Ovares
[hidden email] Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life! To: [hidden email],
[hidden email] Date: Wednesday, 1 April, 2009, 9:59 PM FYI, the avatar stick bug April 1 joke was my idea. Also, I think it's really important to note that all of the developers of OpenSimulator have, since day one told people to avoid SVN for something that is production. That includes anything that you want to work. April 1st is a tradition in OpenSimulator and on April 1st a sense of humor is required when using SVN. We made sure that all releases and tags did *not* have the April fool's joke in it for this very reason. We make releases and tag revisions not for our benefit, but for yours. I know some people on this list don't spend time on IRC, however, it's been hinted upon since February that there would likely be an April fool's joke there. For those that argue that most people don't sit in IRC, see two paragraphs up. Now, if despite our warnings and hints, you continued to use SVN, then likely your avatar were stick-bugged. I reiterate what has been said all along. Direct SVN revisions are risky. They've always been, and it's always bad practice to use them unless you've thoroughly looked them over. A lot of people thought it was funny. The people who did not were in the far minority. Sincerely Teravus On 4/1/09, Jonathan Greenlee [hidden email] wrote:
This was funny.
Vandalising everyone's avatar was not.

On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 3:59 PM, S Collingwood
[hidden email]
          
wrote:
This is really BIG. A takeover! We can expect
panzer tanks rolling into shopping malls --
uniformed guards at sim
crossings
--  dogs and cats living together -- it's the
END!!
Linden Lab Sells Second Life!
                
http://www.secondlifeupdate.com/news-and-stuff/linden-lab-sells-
second-life/
--
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Re: Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED]Linden Lab Sells Second Life!" [text][bayes]

Dirk Krause
In general, I would expect this kind of information on this page:
  http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Developer_Documentation
and in the information topic on both IRC channels.

Best,
 Dirk


Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von Stefan Andersson
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 9. April 2009 09:54
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: Re: [Opensim-users] Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED]Linden Lab Sells Second Life!" [text][bayes]

Charles,
 
that's just excellent. Where do you publish it?
 
Best regards,
Stefan Andersson
Tribal Media AB



 
________________________________________
Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 20:22:24 -0700
From: [hidden email]
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Safe use of OpenSim - was "Fw: Re: [SLED] Linden Lab Sells Second Life!"
Well, there is another option.

Each Tuesday at "Office Hour" we pick a "recommended" version of OpenSim. This pick is based on running trunk snapshots on the various OSGrid plazas and the personal regions of half a dozen folks. We then publicize the "recommended" version, but obviously not publicly enough.

This week, the "recommended" version is r8849.

Perhaps one option is to get the "recommended" version number to you each week after "Office Hour", *or* you or one of your team could come to "Office Hour" and help us as we discuss the weeks software activities.

Charles


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