Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
52 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Hello,
I am starting this thread so that I can get some of your thoughts on this matter. 
Most of the time, from what I read, and from what prospective clients tell me, Unity 3D is so great! why don't you develop in unity 3D. Yes it runs on tablets is a big plus. This I do understand. It has better physics, yes clearly.
What I am not sure about, and I hope you can share your thoughts,
is whether it would be possible to create a collaboration centric, avatar centric application in  unity 3D. What I mean, is that whether you can have within a unity 3D world, avatars using objects to create new ones *collaboratively* , whether you can provide users with the ability to change their environments in natural ways, whether objects can be collected and shared, whether you have a shared white board, or collaborative document editing within a unity 3D world. And if yes, how long will it take to make these happen, may be it has already happened, do let me know with pointers to examples.

And btw, why is it that I havent come across any voice chat demos of unity 3D applications that  run in a browser. I am thinking if Unity3D is really top notch, why have these things not appeared already as applications (may be they have, and I haven't seen them, please point to examples, if you know of them).

And most importantly, what does opensim offers that unity 3D does not, that you think is important for users out there, from various domains, such as education, training etc...

p.s. the thoughts about HighFidelity and all these new stuff coming up .... I still don't know, if all these wheels are going to be reinvented, the scene is really too messy to contemplate. It is becoming really hard for us developers to pick platforms. We don't have infinite resources, and we feel that we don't even get a chance to discuss application level stuffs, when the underlying platforms are already shifting so arbitrarily.
Thanks
Ramesh
--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

M.E. Verhagen
Opensim is a multi platform server envirionment. So I guess opensim runs on non graphical evririonments. 
It would not really make sense to wanna run opensim on a tablet, it is not much fun looking at the console with endless debug messages all the time. 

I doubt unity would make a chanche if compiled as a server application. You probably would wanna compare it with a virtual world viewer. 

There are lots of viewers wich you can use to connect with an opensim. Some of them even run on tablets.
When I remember correctly there have been some viewers made with unity. 



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dahlia Trimble
In reply to this post by Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Unity and OpenSimulator are not designed to cover the same application space. Uinty is designed for mostly single player gaming and adds a few features to help support multiplayer; whereas OpenSimulator is more designed for multi-user shared collaborative experiences. You can build a multi-user shared collaborative environment with Unity but it would require extensive development as it's not really designed for that purpose.

Regarding physics, Unity has client-side physics. Whether this is "better" really depends on the application. For a single user game, client side physics can provide a more realistic experience as it's not affected by network communication time and physical actions/reactions occure relatively instantly. However, client-side physics brings about a new set of challenges in a networked, collaborative environent. Consider the following scenario: You have a space shooter game where asteroids are moving towards earth. Players fly around in spaceships and fire weapons at the asteroids trying to deflect them. Player A fires a weapon and the projectile strikes the asteroid, deflecting it and scoring a point for player A. While this happens, Player B also fires at the asteroid, destroying it. Due to networking delays, player B's computer did not receive the event signaling player A firing at and deflecting the asteroid until after player B had destroyed it. Both players believe they deserve the score but only one could have hit the asteroid. Had these events been processed by a central server, both players would have observed the events in order and it would be clear which player would deserve the score. Such situations are why multi-user shared environments usually rely on central physics and event processing. This is one area where Unity could use additional development. There are, however advantages to having some client side physics even when many interactions are controlled by a central server, such as some avatar animation effects. I believe there's a lot that could be done to make the SL/OpenSimulator experience appear more realistic by adding more client-side physics in areas where it clearly helps.

I've had a fair bit of experience with interfacing Unity to OpenSimulator in the past; I wrote a Unity based web viewer for OpenSimulator a few years ago for a company named "Rezzable". Around that time I was also experimenting with mixing client-side and server side physics and I learned quite a bit about what can go wrong with trying to share client-side physics over a network.

Regarding collaboration, Unity's editor is a single-user application. Editing your environment and using it are completely different situations. In OpenSimulator, they are combined into the same experience and others can observe world building in real time and participate in the process.

To recap: Unity is really designed for games, and OpenSimulator is designed for shared, collaborative experiences. If you want to develop single user games or limited multi-user games, Unity is probably the best choice. For shared experiences, OpenSimulator pretty much works out of the box.


On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,
I am starting this thread so that I can get some of your thoughts on this matter. 
Most of the time, from what I read, and from what prospective clients tell me, Unity 3D is so great! why don't you develop in unity 3D. Yes it runs on tablets is a big plus. This I do understand. It has better physics, yes clearly.
What I am not sure about, and I hope you can share your thoughts,
is whether it would be possible to create a collaboration centric, avatar centric application in  unity 3D. What I mean, is that whether you can have within a unity 3D world, avatars using objects to create new ones *collaboratively* , whether you can provide users with the ability to change their environments in natural ways, whether objects can be collected and shared, whether you have a shared white board, or collaborative document editing within a unity 3D world. And if yes, how long will it take to make these happen, may be it has already happened, do let me know with pointers to examples.

And btw, why is it that I havent come across any voice chat demos of unity 3D applications that  run in a browser. I am thinking if Unity3D is really top notch, why have these things not appeared already as applications (may be they have, and I haven't seen them, please point to examples, if you know of them).

And most importantly, what does opensim offers that unity 3D does not, that you think is important for users out there, from various domains, such as education, training etc...

p.s. the thoughts about HighFidelity and all these new stuff coming up .... I still don't know, if all these wheels are going to be reinvented, the scene is really too messy to contemplate. It is becoming really hard for us developers to pick platforms. We don't have infinite resources, and we feel that we don't even get a chance to discuss application level stuffs, when the underlying platforms are already shifting so arbitrarily.
Thanks
Ramesh
--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Alan Miller

We’ve developed a system which translates an OpenSim region into a UNITY scene. If there was interest it could be made available. Though support would be low key.

 

Best,

 

Alan

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dahlia Trimble
Sent: 18 July 2014 22:12
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

 

Unity and OpenSimulator are not designed to cover the same application space. Uinty is designed for mostly single player gaming and adds a few features to help support multiplayer; whereas OpenSimulator is more designed for multi-user shared collaborative experiences. You can build a multi-user shared collaborative environment with Unity but it would require extensive development as it's not really designed for that purpose.

Regarding physics, Unity has client-side physics. Whether this is "better" really depends on the application. For a single user game, client side physics can provide a more realistic experience as it's not affected by network communication time and physical actions/reactions occure relatively instantly. However, client-side physics brings about a new set of challenges in a networked, collaborative environent. Consider the following scenario: You have a space shooter game where asteroids are moving towards earth. Players fly around in spaceships and fire weapons at the asteroids trying to deflect them. Player A fires a weapon and the projectile strikes the asteroid, deflecting it and scoring a point for player A. While this happens, Player B also fires at the asteroid, destroying it. Due to networking delays, player B's computer did not receive the event signaling player A firing at and deflecting the asteroid until after player B had destroyed it. Both players believe they deserve the score but only one could have hit the asteroid. Had these events been processed by a central server, both players would have observed the events in order and it would be clear which player would deserve the score. Such situations are why multi-user shared environments usually rely on central physics and event processing. This is one area where Unity could use additional development. There are, however advantages to having some client side physics even when many interactions are controlled by a central server, such as some avatar animation effects. I believe there's a lot that could be done to make the SL/OpenSimulator experience appear more realistic by adding more client-side physics in areas where it clearly helps.

I've had a fair bit of experience with interfacing Unity to OpenSimulator in the past; I wrote a Unity based web viewer for OpenSimulator a few years ago for a company named "Rezzable". Around that time I was also experimenting with mixing client-side and server side physics and I learned quite a bit about what can go wrong with trying to share client-side physics over a network.

Regarding collaboration, Unity's editor is a single-user application. Editing your environment and using it are completely different situations. In OpenSimulator, they are combined into the same experience and others can observe world building in real time and participate in the process.

 

To recap: Unity is really designed for games, and OpenSimulator is designed for shared, collaborative experiences. If you want to develop single user games or limited multi-user games, Unity is probably the best choice. For shared experiences, OpenSimulator pretty much works out of the box.

 

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

I am starting this thread so that I can get some of your thoughts on this matter. 

Most of the time, from what I read, and from what prospective clients tell me, Unity 3D is so great! why don't you develop in unity 3D. Yes it runs on tablets is a big plus. This I do understand. It has better physics, yes clearly.

What I am not sure about, and I hope you can share your thoughts,

is whether it would be possible to create a collaboration centric, avatar centric application in  unity 3D. What I mean, is that whether you can have within a unity 3D world, avatars using objects to create new ones *collaboratively* , whether you can provide users with the ability to change their environments in natural ways, whether objects can be collected and shared, whether you have a shared white board, or collaborative document editing within a unity 3D world. And if yes, how long will it take to make these happen, may be it has already happened, do let me know with pointers to examples.

 

And btw, why is it that I havent come across any voice chat demos of unity 3D applications that  run in a browser. I am thinking if Unity3D is really top notch, why have these things not appeared already as applications (may be they have, and I haven't seen them, please point to examples, if you know of them).

 

And most importantly, what does opensim offers that unity 3D does not, that you think is important for users out there, from various domains, such as education, training etc...

 

p.s. the thoughts about HighFidelity and all these new stuff coming up .... I still don't know, if all these wheels are going to be reinvented, the scene is really too messy to contemplate. It is becoming really hard for us developers to pick platforms. We don't have infinite resources, and we feel that we don't even get a chance to discuss application level stuffs, when the underlying platforms are already shifting so arbitrarily.

Thanks

Ramesh

--

'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" target="_blank">208-240-0040


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

 


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Dear Alan,
Thanks, could you share with us if all the funcationalities, scripting, behaviors in the opensim region were also translated into the unity scene? I have had many people tell me what you just said, and they walk away with the impression that all functionalities are maintained, I just wanted you to confirm.
Ramesh


On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 5:16 PM, Alan Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

We’ve developed a system which translates an OpenSim region into a UNITY scene. If there was interest it could be made available. Though support would be low key.

 

Best,

 

Alan

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dahlia Trimble
Sent: 18 July 2014 22:12
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

 

Unity and OpenSimulator are not designed to cover the same application space. Uinty is designed for mostly single player gaming and adds a few features to help support multiplayer; whereas OpenSimulator is more designed for multi-user shared collaborative experiences. You can build a multi-user shared collaborative environment with Unity but it would require extensive development as it's not really designed for that purpose.

Regarding physics, Unity has client-side physics. Whether this is "better" really depends on the application. For a single user game, client side physics can provide a more realistic experience as it's not affected by network communication time and physical actions/reactions occure relatively instantly. However, client-side physics brings about a new set of challenges in a networked, collaborative environent. Consider the following scenario: You have a space shooter game where asteroids are moving towards earth. Players fly around in spaceships and fire weapons at the asteroids trying to deflect them. Player A fires a weapon and the projectile strikes the asteroid, deflecting it and scoring a point for player A. While this happens, Player B also fires at the asteroid, destroying it. Due to networking delays, player B's computer did not receive the event signaling player A firing at and deflecting the asteroid until after player B had destroyed it. Both players believe they deserve the score but only one could have hit the asteroid. Had these events been processed by a central server, both players would have observed the events in order and it would be clear which player would deserve the score. Such situations are why multi-user shared environments usually rely on central physics and event processing. This is one area where Unity could use additional development. There are, however advantages to having some client side physics even when many interactions are controlled by a central server, such as some avatar animation effects. I believe there's a lot that could be done to make the SL/OpenSimulator experience appear more realistic by adding more client-side physics in areas where it clearly helps.

I've had a fair bit of experience with interfacing Unity to OpenSimulator in the past; I wrote a Unity based web viewer for OpenSimulator a few years ago for a company named "Rezzable". Around that time I was also experimenting with mixing client-side and server side physics and I learned quite a bit about what can go wrong with trying to share client-side physics over a network.

Regarding collaboration, Unity's editor is a single-user application. Editing your environment and using it are completely different situations. In OpenSimulator, they are combined into the same experience and others can observe world building in real time and participate in the process.

 

To recap: Unity is really designed for games, and OpenSimulator is designed for shared, collaborative experiences. If you want to develop single user games or limited multi-user games, Unity is probably the best choice. For shared experiences, OpenSimulator pretty much works out of the box.

 

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

I am starting this thread so that I can get some of your thoughts on this matter. 

Most of the time, from what I read, and from what prospective clients tell me, Unity 3D is so great! why don't you develop in unity 3D. Yes it runs on tablets is a big plus. This I do understand. It has better physics, yes clearly.

What I am not sure about, and I hope you can share your thoughts,

is whether it would be possible to create a collaboration centric, avatar centric application in  unity 3D. What I mean, is that whether you can have within a unity 3D world, avatars using objects to create new ones *collaboratively* , whether you can provide users with the ability to change their environments in natural ways, whether objects can be collected and shared, whether you have a shared white board, or collaborative document editing within a unity 3D world. And if yes, how long will it take to make these happen, may be it has already happened, do let me know with pointers to examples.

 

And btw, why is it that I havent come across any voice chat demos of unity 3D applications that  run in a browser. I am thinking if Unity3D is really top notch, why have these things not appeared already as applications (may be they have, and I haven't seen them, please point to examples, if you know of them).

 

And most importantly, what does opensim offers that unity 3D does not, that you think is important for users out there, from various domains, such as education, training etc...

 

p.s. the thoughts about HighFidelity and all these new stuff coming up .... I still don't know, if all these wheels are going to be reinvented, the scene is really too messy to contemplate. It is becoming really hard for us developers to pick platforms. We don't have infinite resources, and we feel that we don't even get a chance to discuss application level stuffs, when the underlying platforms are already shifting so arbitrarily.

Thanks

Ramesh

--

'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" target="_blank">208-240-0040


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

 


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
In reply to this post by M.E. Verhagen
'Opensim is a multi platform server envirionment. So I guess opensim runs on non graphical evririonments. 
It would not really make sense to wanna run opensim on a tablet, it is not much fun looking at the console with endless debug messages all the time. '
:) You are really witty, I am impressed. I think most people followed what I was trying to say.


On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 5:05 PM, M.E. Verhagen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Opensim is a multi platform server envirionment. So I guess opensim runs on non graphical evririonments. 
It would not really make sense to wanna run opensim on a tablet, it is not much fun looking at the console with endless debug messages all the time. 

I doubt unity would make a chanche if compiled as a server application. You probably would wanna compare it with a virtual world viewer. 

There are lots of viewers wich you can use to connect with an opensim. Some of them even run on tablets.
When I remember correctly there have been some viewers made with unity. 



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Toni Alatalo-2
In reply to this post by Alan Miller
yes it's certainly possible, and for simple things not too complex either - basically like Dahlia said.

for completeness about the extent of VW like collaboration, I'd expect that adding almost any sort of functionality is theoretically possible .. similarily to any graphics / game engine. even collaborative editing. but you'd have to implement all that .. how you deal with the object data when there's both local & remote changes from the net etc. like we've done on top of Ogre3D & Three.JS in realXtend Tundra & WebTundra .. which don't even stil have so much and advanced collab edit things as SLViewer&Opensim (a lot of nice things do work though). probably the net libs ('middlewares') there are can make it quite nice to do.

and certainly doing something with very limited interaction, say avatars that can move & communicate and use a shared whiteboard is not that much and similar to what people do with unity & 3rd part network libs / servers, or their own net & server codes, all the time i suppose.
 
~Toni

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 8:07 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,
I am starting this thread so that I can get some of your thoughts on this matter. 
Most of the time, from what I read, and from what prospective clients tell me, Unity 3D is so great! why don't you develop in unity 3D. Yes it runs on tablets is a big plus. This I do understand. It has better physics, yes clearly.
What I am not sure about, and I hope you can share your thoughts,
is whether it would be possible to create a collaboration centric, avatar centric application in  unity 3D. What I mean, is that whether you can have within a unity 3D world, avatars using objects to create new ones *collaboratively* , whether you can provide users with the ability to change their environments in natural ways, whether objects can be collected and shared, whether you have a shared white board, or collaborative document editing within a unity 3D world. And if yes, how long will it take to make these happen, may be it has already happened, do let me know with pointers to examples.

And btw, why is it that I havent come across any voice chat demos of unity 3D applications that  run in a browser. I am thinking if Unity3D is really top notch, why have these things not appeared already as applications (may be they have, and I haven't seen them, please point to examples, if you know of them).

And most importantly, what does opensim offers that unity 3D does not, that you think is important for users out there, from various domains, such as education, training etc...

p.s. the thoughts about HighFidelity and all these new stuff coming up .... I still don't know, if all these wheels are going to be reinvented, the scene is really too messy to contemplate. It is becoming really hard for us developers to pick platforms. We don't have infinite resources, and we feel that we don't even get a chance to discuss application level stuffs, when the underlying platforms are already shifting so arbitrarily.
Thanks
Ramesh
-- 
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:16 AM, Alan Miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

We’ve developed a system which translates an OpenSim region into a UNITY scene. If there was interest it could be made available. Though support would be low key.

 

Best,

 

Alan

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Dahlia Trimble
Sent: 18 July 2014 22:12
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

 

Unity and OpenSimulator are not designed to cover the same application space. Uinty is designed for mostly single player gaming and adds a few features to help support multiplayer; whereas OpenSimulator is more designed for multi-user shared collaborative experiences. You can build a multi-user shared collaborative environment with Unity but it would require extensive development as it's not really designed for that purpose.

Regarding physics, Unity has client-side physics. Whether this is "better" really depends on the application. For a single user game, client side physics can provide a more realistic experience as it's not affected by network communication time and physical actions/reactions occure relatively instantly. However, client-side physics brings about a new set of challenges in a networked, collaborative environent. Consider the following scenario: You have a space shooter game where asteroids are moving towards earth. Players fly around in spaceships and fire weapons at the asteroids trying to deflect them. Player A fires a weapon and the projectile strikes the asteroid, deflecting it and scoring a point for player A. While this happens, Player B also fires at the asteroid, destroying it. Due to networking delays, player B's computer did not receive the event signaling player A firing at and deflecting the asteroid until after player B had destroyed it. Both players believe they deserve the score but only one could have hit the asteroid. Had these events been processed by a central server, both players would have observed the events in order and it would be clear which player would deserve the score. Such situations are why multi-user shared environments usually rely on central physics and event processing. This is one area where Unity could use additional development. There are, however advantages to having some client side physics even when many interactions are controlled by a central server, such as some avatar animation effects. I believe there's a lot that could be done to make the SL/OpenSimulator experience appear more realistic by adding more client-side physics in areas where it clearly helps.

I've had a fair bit of experience with interfacing Unity to OpenSimulator in the past; I wrote a Unity based web viewer for OpenSimulator a few years ago for a company named "Rezzable". Around that time I was also experimenting with mixing client-side and server side physics and I learned quite a bit about what can go wrong with trying to share client-side physics over a network.

Regarding collaboration, Unity's editor is a single-user application. Editing your environment and using it are completely different situations. In OpenSimulator, they are combined into the same experience and others can observe world building in real time and participate in the process.

 

To recap: Unity is really designed for games, and OpenSimulator is designed for shared, collaborative experiences. If you want to develop single user games or limited multi-user games, Unity is probably the best choice. For shared experiences, OpenSimulator pretty much works out of the box.

 

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 10:07 AM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hello,

I am starting this thread so that I can get some of your thoughts on this matter. 

Most of the time, from what I read, and from what prospective clients tell me, Unity 3D is so great! why don't you develop in unity 3D. Yes it runs on tablets is a big plus. This I do understand. It has better physics, yes clearly.

What I am not sure about, and I hope you can share your thoughts,

is whether it would be possible to create a collaboration centric, avatar centric application in  unity 3D. What I mean, is that whether you can have within a unity 3D world, avatars using objects to create new ones *collaboratively* , whether you can provide users with the ability to change their environments in natural ways, whether objects can be collected and shared, whether you have a shared white board, or collaborative document editing within a unity 3D world. And if yes, how long will it take to make these happen, may be it has already happened, do let me know with pointers to examples.

 

And btw, why is it that I havent come across any voice chat demos of unity 3D applications that  run in a browser. I am thinking if Unity3D is really top notch, why have these things not appeared already as applications (may be they have, and I haven't seen them, please point to examples, if you know of them).

 

And most importantly, what does opensim offers that unity 3D does not, that you think is important for users out there, from various domains, such as education, training etc...

 

p.s. the thoughts about HighFidelity and all these new stuff coming up .... I still don't know, if all these wheels are going to be reinvented, the scene is really too messy to contemplate. It is becoming really hard for us developers to pick platforms. We don't have infinite resources, and we feel that we don't even get a chance to discuss application level stuffs, when the underlying platforms are already shifting so arbitrarily.

Thanks

Ramesh

--

'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" target="_blank">208-240-0040


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

 


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
In reply to this post by Dr Ramesh Ramloll
ME Verhagen, Could you point me to some of the unity viewers to opensim that you speak of? That would be really neat.
Thanks


On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 5:25 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
'Opensim is a multi platform server envirionment. So I guess opensim runs on non graphical evririonments. 
It would not really make sense to wanna run opensim on a tablet, it is not much fun looking at the console with endless debug messages all the time. '
:) You are really witty, I am impressed. I think most people followed what I was trying to say.


On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 5:05 PM, M.E. Verhagen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Opensim is a multi platform server envirionment. So I guess opensim runs on non graphical evririonments. 
It would not really make sense to wanna run opensim on a tablet, it is not much fun looking at the console with endless debug messages all the time. 

I doubt unity would make a chanche if compiled as a server application. You probably would wanna compare it with a virtual world viewer. 

There are lots of viewers wich you can use to connect with an opensim. Some of them even run on tablets.
When I remember correctly there have been some viewers made with unity. 



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

aiaustin
In reply to this post by Dr Ramesh Ramloll
My own experiments with Unity a while ago can be found via this link
to Unity related posts in my blog...

<http://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/?s=unity3d>http://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/?s=unity3d

A reasonable single post summary is at

<http://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/2011/12/07/i-room-in-unity3d-with-multi-user-chat-voip-and-collaboration-tools/>http://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/2011/12/07/i-room-in-unity3d-with-multi-user-chat-voip-and-collaboration-tools/

This included a bit of work with multiuser servers including SmartFox
and Proton (the free to use versions for up to about 50 avatars),
voice alongside the application, use of a shared whiteboard and
presentation tool alongside not inside Unity, etc.

I created a simple I-Room virtual collaboration space as a learning
exercise, and scripted some teleporters, web page and image serving
screens, etc.

Tipodean did a Collada mesh conversion for me of the OpenVCE
collaboration region from an OAR and we moved that into Unity for
tests but with no scripting.  You can try Tipodean's systems and
their other demos at
See http://converter.tipodean.com/unity3d/index.html

You might also look at the work John (Pathfinder) Lester has been
doing in Unity3D and the Jibe framework for multi-user interactions,
but that is commercial and not available as open source.  See
http://reactiongrid.com/what.aspx

And I believe that the next version of Unity will incudes a
multi-user server setup. See http://unity3d.com/5

The issue as I see it is that such systems will be isolated islands
with small or separate user communities. It will take some time to
build new communities such as we have with Second Life or OpenSim/Hypergrid.

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

M.E. Verhagen
In reply to this post by Dr Ramesh Ramloll
No I do not have working links to opensim viewers


2014-07-18 23:29 GMT+02:00 Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]>:
ME Verhagen, Could you point me to some of the unity viewers to opensim that you speak of? That would be really neat.
Thanks


On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 5:25 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
'Opensim is a multi platform server envirionment. So I guess opensim runs on non graphical evririonments. 
It would not really make sense to wanna run opensim on a tablet, it is not much fun looking at the console with endless debug messages all the time. '
:) You are really witty, I am impressed. I think most people followed what I was trying to say.


On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 5:05 PM, M.E. Verhagen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Opensim is a multi platform server envirionment. So I guess opensim runs on non graphical evririonments. 
It would not really make sense to wanna run opensim on a tablet, it is not much fun looking at the console with endless debug messages all the time. 

I doubt unity would make a chanche if compiled as a server application. You probably would wanna compare it with a virtual world viewer. 

There are lots of viewers wich you can use to connect with an opensim. Some of them even run on tablets.
When I remember correctly there have been some viewers made with unity. 



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




--
Groningen en Hannover Opensims:   secondlife://meverhagen.nl:8002:Hannover ZW/ 

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
In reply to this post by aiaustin
Thanks Ai for the very thorough and informative links.
I am considering taking a stab at re-implementing what I have here into a Unity environment, so I am trying to learn as much as I can before I take the leap, so the site is here....
may be a clip here http://youtu.be/0xVEQajPTBo 

The difficulties I am expecting right off the bat is how I can create an interface in a unity 3D world that would mimick the content creation and control board I describe on the site (in this case, teachers collaboratively build scenarios, and collaboratively control what the students see in 'practice space' (where the world is actually immersive ...a representation of the map on the board)
The other thing is that, each objects in the library are deeply scripted, some directly malleable (parts can be moved through clicks) collaboratively e.g. a house with all objects there in, and some NPCs talk to servers and so on to do intelligent things ... some buildings have all the conference tools etc.. etc.. white boards, video viewers, u know the usual.
 I feel that it will probably be useless for me to invest in creating a lot of library objects with deep functionalities, if the platform itself cannot be accessed by most users.

Since I have no Unity3D experience whatsoever, could you, may be based on your gut feelings, let me know if the application at www.rezmela.com can be reimplemented in unity3D. From what I understand it will be a long road.

Thanks Ai, just to let you know, I started using opensim, only I read about your work :)
Ramesh


On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Ai Austin <[hidden email]> wrote:
My own experiments with Unity a while ago can be found via this link to Unity related posts in my blog...

<http://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/?s=unity3d>http://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/?s=unity3d

A reasonable single post summary is at

<http://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/2011/12/07/i-room-in-unity3d-with-multi-user-chat-voip-and-collaboration-tools/>http://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/2011/12/07/i-room-in-unity3d-with-multi-user-chat-voip-and-collaboration-tools/

This included a bit of work with multiuser servers including SmartFox and Proton (the free to use versions for up to about 50 avatars), voice alongside the application, use of a shared whiteboard and presentation tool alongside not inside Unity, etc.

I created a simple I-Room virtual collaboration space as a learning exercise, and scripted some teleporters, web page and image serving screens, etc.

Tipodean did a Collada mesh conversion for me of the OpenVCE collaboration region from an OAR and we moved that into Unity for tests but with no scripting.  You can try Tipodean's systems and their other demos at
See http://converter.tipodean.com/unity3d/index.html

You might also look at the work John (Pathfinder) Lester has been doing in Unity3D and the Jibe framework for multi-user interactions, but that is commercial and not available as open source.  See http://reactiongrid.com/what.aspx

And I believe that the next version of Unity will incudes a multi-user server setup. See http://unity3d.com/5

The issue as I see it is that such systems will be isolated islands with small or separate user communities. It will take some time to build new communities such as we have with Second Life or OpenSim/Hypergrid.


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Toni Alatalo-2
the control panel is sure nice and all but i'd really consider doing the 2d ui just on a normal 2d widget .. could still have nice ways of seeing both the map & the immersive 3d view, and ways of switching between them / configuring how they both show

i think such creation & moving of objects is normal and straightforward to do on unity, or any other engine for that matter.

like your approach, was nice to see the videos :)

~Toni


On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 1:29 AM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
Thanks Ai for the very thorough and informative links.
I am considering taking a stab at re-implementing what I have here into a Unity environment, so I am trying to learn as much as I can before I take the leap, so the site is here....
may be a clip here http://youtu.be/0xVEQajPTBo 

The difficulties I am expecting right off the bat is how I can create an interface in a unity 3D world that would mimick the content creation and control board I describe on the site (in this case, teachers collaboratively build scenarios, and collaboratively control what the students see in 'practice space' (where the world is actually immersive ...a representation of the map on the board)
The other thing is that, each objects in the library are deeply scripted, some directly malleable (parts can be moved through clicks) collaboratively e.g. a house with all objects there in, and some NPCs talk to servers and so on to do intelligent things ... some buildings have all the conference tools etc.. etc.. white boards, video viewers, u know the usual.
 I feel that it will probably be useless for me to invest in creating a lot of library objects with deep functionalities, if the platform itself cannot be accessed by most users.

Since I have no Unity3D experience whatsoever, could you, may be based on your gut feelings, let me know if the application at www.rezmela.com can be reimplemented in unity3D. From what I understand it will be a long road.

Thanks Ai, just to let you know, I started using opensim, only I read about your work :)
Ramesh


On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Ai Austin <[hidden email]> wrote:
My own experiments with Unity a while ago can be found via this link to Unity related posts in my blog...

<http://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/?s=unity3d>http://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/?s=unity3d

A reasonable single post summary is at

<http://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/2011/12/07/i-room-in-unity3d-with-multi-user-chat-voip-and-collaboration-tools/>http://blog.inf.ed.ac.uk/atate/2011/12/07/i-room-in-unity3d-with-multi-user-chat-voip-and-collaboration-tools/

This included a bit of work with multiuser servers including SmartFox and Proton (the free to use versions for up to about 50 avatars), voice alongside the application, use of a shared whiteboard and presentation tool alongside not inside Unity, etc.

I created a simple I-Room virtual collaboration space as a learning exercise, and scripted some teleporters, web page and image serving screens, etc.

Tipodean did a Collada mesh conversion for me of the OpenVCE collaboration region from an OAR and we moved that into Unity for tests but with no scripting.  You can try Tipodean's systems and their other demos at
See http://converter.tipodean.com/unity3d/index.html

You might also look at the work John (Pathfinder) Lester has been doing in Unity3D and the Jibe framework for multi-user interactions, but that is commercial and not available as open source.  See http://reactiongrid.com/what.aspx

And I believe that the next version of Unity will incudes a multi-user server setup. See http://unity3d.com/5

The issue as I see it is that such systems will be isolated islands with small or separate user communities. It will take some time to build new communities such as we have with Second Life or OpenSim/Hypergrid.


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Toni Alatalo <[hidden email]> wrote:
consider doing the 2d ui just on a normal 2d widget

Hi Toni,
the board is not a 2D widget actually, it is a 3d miniaturize version that looks 2D in the videos, you could build a building, with each floors stacked on the board, and create different configurations of buildings from linked parts etc...when I plant trees, it needs to have height of terrain info... so yes, the board is not 2D really. I tried viewing the set up through the rift but I did not have many people view it at the same time and do stuff on the board at the same time through the rift, that's where I am hoping to go in the future. 
can unity allow loading of pre-scripted complex objects (with different moveable parts) at one go like I demonstrate? or are those moves mainly for static objects?
can the 2d ui in unity be viewed as a 3D object inside the scene through the Rift?
Just thinking questions aloud, but they will go a long way to help me make a decision.
Thanks in advance Toni
Ramesh



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Toni Alatalo-2
right - i was thinking about that a bit actually. i think the comment still applies in the sense that i was mostly thinking of it from the UI point of view - how just having like a map widget can be nicer than needing to go to a room and adjust camera to a board etc.

with 3d one way to do that would be just put a camera on top of what you want to show in the map and show that in the widget .. or for full screen editing just move the main cam to top & have editing tools such as enabling grid available?

anyhow, also as said i think doing exactly the kind of board you have is certainly doable too.

one point would be contrasting it with the unity editor .. can it be in the end nice the edit there, would it be nice to have some helping tools there? and then just press play to see it.. publish it on the net as well for collab to work? yours is yet simpler though, specific for a simple task kind of, and the it all being in-world is somehow nice and interesting too.

~Toni


On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 1:53 AM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Toni Alatalo <[hidden email]> wrote:
consider doing the 2d ui just on a normal 2d widget

Hi Toni,
the board is not a 2D widget actually, it is a 3d miniaturize version that looks 2D in the videos, you could build a building, with each floors stacked on the board, and create different configurations of buildings from linked parts etc...when I plant trees, it needs to have height of terrain info... so yes, the board is not 2D really. I tried viewing the set up through the rift but I did not have many people view it at the same time and do stuff on the board at the same time through the rift, that's where I am hoping to go in the future. 
can unity allow loading of pre-scripted complex objects (with different moveable parts) at one go like I demonstrate? or are those moves mainly for static objects?
can the 2d ui in unity be viewed as a 3D object inside the scene through the Rift?
Just thinking questions aloud, but they will go a long way to help me make a decision.
Thanks in advance Toni
Ramesh



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dahlia Trimble
In reply to this post by Dr Ramesh Ramloll
From what I've seen from your videos, you could do all of that in Unity and probably have very good results.  I see in your one video that you interact with the board with a Rift and I think having it in 3d may be a good choice for that purpose. The only potential problems I see with Unity is if you want a shared experience with more than a few users. I assume though if Unity is coming out with a shared server then it would probably mitigate such problems.

Unity has strengths as a platform and you may want to change the design of your application somewhat to play to those strengths as you learn Unity.

One thing to keep in mind though, Unity is closed source. You get what you get and you can't really modify it if it doesn't suit your needs.


On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 3:53 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 6:43 PM, Toni Alatalo <[hidden email]> wrote:
consider doing the 2d ui just on a normal 2d widget

Hi Toni,
the board is not a 2D widget actually, it is a 3d miniaturize version that looks 2D in the videos, you could build a building, with each floors stacked on the board, and create different configurations of buildings from linked parts etc...when I plant trees, it needs to have height of terrain info... so yes, the board is not 2D really. I tried viewing the set up through the rift but I did not have many people view it at the same time and do stuff on the board at the same time through the rift, that's where I am hoping to go in the future. 
can unity allow loading of pre-scripted complex objects (with different moveable parts) at one go like I demonstrate? or are those moves mainly for static objects?
can the 2d ui in unity be viewed as a 3D object inside the scene through the Rift?
Just thinking questions aloud, but they will go a long way to help me make a decision.
Thanks in advance Toni
Ramesh



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Wade Schuette
In reply to this post by Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Some good posts with links here I look forward to reading!

---- voice ---
Ramesh, from what I've seen there is no off-the-shelf browser-only voice client that works with Unity.  One or two are sold in the Unity store, but the voice quality is not what I'd call suitable for collaboration, aside from yelling "shoot! shoot!"

Last time I looked,  Jibe was going with Vivox voice,  but Vivox needs an installed client.  I'm assuming you are looking, as I was, for a purely browser based solution,   with capacity like Citrix GoToMeeting or such.

Some people I know with non-technical or one-time visitors/users have gone with Skype as a voice channel,  and OpenSim or SecondLife as the visual channel.    You lose 3-D dimension of sound, but Vivox sound has proven to be quite erratic for class work, and for a collaboration either EVERYONE has sound working or it's a failure.   Both Vivox and Linden Labs point at each other.  Not much help coming there.

--- physics --

As to physics, speaking as a former physics major,  Unity physics is actual physics, not a piece of junk like Second Life or OpenSim.   And,   it's possible, gasp,  to make a HINGE or an AXLE that won't explode as soon as you release it.  So if you need to build equipment with complex moving pieces that are detailed and realistic,  Unity wins hands down.

Similarly, in Unity you actually know where things are, to a millimeter, such as, say, the blade of a scalpel in the hand of a surgeon or pathologist making an incision.    You can do realistic simulations where there are fine grained interactions of people and objects, or people and people.     This is simply not possible in OpenSim or Second Life.   I built a really nice autopsy table for the Second Life Medical Examiner sim,  but never could get a generic pair-based animation of an autopsy to work, and don't think anyone can, except in broad strokes, and certainly not for two unknown avatar shapes.

-- props and clothes --

Moving from Second Life to Unity, things are priced about the same number, except that in Second Life it's Lindens and in Unity it's dollars.    That is,  a nice dress of a particular kind in Second Life might take you all of a minute to find, and cost $1.50.       A workable mesh-based dress in Unity will probably not be available,  aside from combat or sexy clothes,  and going to Mesh real-life stores like TurboSquid,   you are competing with people doing TV ads who think nothing of spending  $300 (three HUNDRED) for an outfit for their model.

Yes, you can get SOME avatars and clothes free from MakeHuman or DAZ,    but the choice is extremely limited.  Props similarly,  you may need to pay hard cash for chairs, desks, etc. that work for you.

Unity comes with NO PROPS.   Unity is not designed for building props or clothes or avatars, it is designed for USING them.      Generally, you build stuff, including possibly animations in Blender (free) or Maya or Autodesk and import them.     Or you buy them at expensive mesh-model stores.

-- multiuser mode --

I optimistically set out to master multiuser mode,  first using SmartFox3D  and then Photon. 
It's doable, but it is a real pain.        If you need to do this, there ARE a large number of Unity Builders for hire that you can find via the Unity store or via some shop like eLance.

https://www.elance.com
 
Elance makes it easy to scan prior work,   find people with good recommendations,   deal with payment in a way that keeps both sides of a short-build-contract happy, etc.   It's worth checking out.

-- shared whiteboard --

After several years of using various techniques, including Google Docs, for providing a shared whiteboard in Second Life  (and I think this would be true in Open Sim as well),   I'm finally of the opinion that it's just not worth the effort.

That is,  I had a shared Google Doc on a whiteboard,  and if each student logged into it with a password separately, exactly right,  they could see each other's changes on the board at the front of the room.    There were two main problems --
* first,  it was hard to explain to new users how to do this correctly, so some would see the shared document and others would see their own document. 
* Second, and critically,  in order to READ the document either we needed a large font size ( 24 point or larger) in which case we only had 8 lines of text,   or they had to click the board to make it FULL-SCREEN.   OK, once you are going to take over the entire screen with the shared document,     a shared whiteboard INSIDE the application isn't worth the huge bandwidth required to do it.
*  Third,  it was not possible to UPLOAD documents or DOWNLOAD them via Second Life shared whiteboard. 

So, conclusion,  we're giving up on collaboration INSIDE SecondLife/Open Sim,   and going with collaboration applications open along-side the virtual world window, specifically Instructure's "Canvas"  ( http://www.instructure.com/  )

Canvas is free, entirely browser based,  it can be hosted for free or you can host it yourself,   it includes voice and video chat, it has a shared whiteboard (somewhat),  it's integrated with a Learning Management System, it's oriented directly towards educational use and collaboration, and has a 200 person development team working with such use in mind,  versus use for pornography,  etc.

So we're now trying to prototype a collaborative application with one screen window open to Canvas, and another screen window open to OpenSim/Second Life.

I'm not sure it's much of a loss.   Avatars can carry around a virtual tablet, with unreadably small print on it, and clicking the tablet can link to switch them to full-screen in a shared canvas environment.    In reality,  with the possible exception of MD's,   EITHER you're looking at the screen and ignoring the environment, OR you're looking at the environment and ignoring your screen.   I don't see clicking back and forth between two windows being that much different in terms of it's impact on the experience of "immersion", but I'm biased by not finding any other good way to do it. :)

Wade







On 7/18/2014 10:07 AM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll wrote:
Hello,
I am starting this thread so that I can get some of your thoughts on this matter. 
Most of the time, from what I read, and from what prospective clients tell me, Unity 3D is so great! why don't you develop in unity 3D. Yes it runs on tablets is a big plus. This I do understand. It has better physics, yes clearly.
What I am not sure about, and I hope you can share your thoughts,
is whether it would be possible to create a collaboration centric, avatar centric application in  unity 3D. What I mean, is that whether you can have within a unity 3D world, avatars using objects to create new ones *collaboratively* , whether you can provide users with the ability to change their environments in natural ways, whether objects can be collected and shared, whether you have a shared white board, or collaborative document editing within a unity 3D world. And if yes, how long will it take to make these happen, may be it has already happened, do let me know with pointers to examples.

And btw, why is it that I havent come across any voice chat demos of unity 3D applications that  run in a browser. I am thinking if Unity3D is really top notch, why have these things not appeared already as applications (may be they have, and I haven't seen them, please point to examples, if you know of them).

And most importantly, what does opensim offers that unity 3D does not, that you think is important for users out there, from various domains, such as education, training etc...

p.s. the thoughts about HighFidelity and all these new stuff coming up .... I still don't know, if all these wheels are going to be reinvented, the scene is really too messy to contemplate. It is becoming really hard for us developers to pick platforms. We don't have infinite resources, and we feel that we don't even get a chance to discuss application level stuffs, when the underlying platforms are already shifting so arbitrarily.
Thanks
Ramesh
--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Wade Schuette
Did people see Maria Korlova's post today ?  I got it in a different[ opensim ] thread, in the Digest.
I don't think I'm supposed to repost from one list to another, but this was clearly intended for the open-sim
community so I'll do it this time:

====== begin quote ====
I second the comments above. In my experience, Unity 3D is primarily used by enterprises for promotional materials -- they build an experience, and then they publish it on the web. This could be marketing games, campus tours, product simulations, etc...

Unity 3D is a development platform. You need developers to create anything in it.

OpenSim is a good fit for someone who wants a Second Life-style virtual environment, with in-world building tools, avatars, inventories, etc... but with better controls, backups, and lower-cost land. Anyone can com e in and build, and there's a wealth of content available -- free OARs, Linda Kellie freebies, Kitely Market, hypergrid stores on many grids, etc... Developers aren't needed to create an environment.

There are some overlaps, though. Jibe and SecondPlaces are two products that try to build a virtual world-like system on top of Unity 3D.

Another option,if you're a developer, is WebGL and HTML5. You need a modern browser - Chrome or Firefox -- to visit these worlds but, on the plus side, you don't need to download any software or install any plugins. It just works. 

And I just got off the phone with Douglas Maxwell, and the U.S. Department of Defense has built an entire free, open source virtual environment framework on top of WebGL -- https://virtual.wf 

So if you're leaning towards Unity 3D, take a look at that, as well.

-- Maria
=== end quote =====


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Wade Schuette
(a) sorry, Maria's last name is Korolov, not what I said.   She's extremely in-touch!

Maria Korolov's profile photo
(b)  side-bar,  the question of scalability.   If you can live with only 50 or fewer users using your system at once,  the OpenSim approach is workable.    One strength of Unity3D,  with SmartFoxServer is that you can potentially deliver the same content to 500,000 people simultaneously with appropriate server power and costs, but no further development.    

Wade



On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Wade Schuette <[hidden email]> wrote:
Did people see Maria Korlova's post today ?  I got it in a different[ opensim ] thread, in the Digest.
I don't think I'm supposed to repost from one list to another, but this was clearly intended for the open-sim
community so I'll do it this time:

====== begin quote ====
I second the comments above. In my experience, Unity 3D is primarily used by enterprises for promotional materials -- they build an experience, and then they publish it on the web. This could be marketing games, campus tours, product simulations, etc...

Unity 3D is a development platform. You need developers to create anything in it.

OpenSim is a good fit for someone who wants a Second Life-style virtual environment, with in-world building tools, avatars, inventories, etc... but with better controls, backups, and lower-cost land. Anyone can com e in and build, and there's a wealth of content available -- free OARs, Linda Kellie freebies, Kitely Market, hypergrid stores on many grids, etc... Developers aren't needed to create an environment.

There are some overlaps, though. Jibe and SecondPlaces are two products that try to build a virtual world-like system on top of Unity 3D.

Another option,if you're a developer, is WebGL and HTML5. You need a modern browser - Chrome or Firefox -- to visit these worlds but, on the plus side, you don't need to download any software or install any plugins. It just works. 

And I just got off the phone with Douglas Maxwell, and the U.S. Department of Defense has built an entire free, open source virtual environment framework on top of WebGL -- https://virtual.wf 

So if you're leaning towards Unity 3D, take a look at that, as well.

-- Maria
=== end quote =====




--
R. Wade Schuette, CDP, MBA, MPH
698 Monterey Ave
Morro Bay CA 93442
cell: 1 (734) 635-0508
fax:  1 (734) 864-0318
[hidden email]

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Hi Wade,
Thanks for the thoughtful feedback. For scalability issues I was actually thinking opensim might be better. In theory, class sizes in my case wont be more than 50 at one time, voice chat is a primary requirement, and I think just adding oar instances (that's why I chose kitely as my test platform) is really not hard and the costs scales up predictably and nicely. In any case, packing 500000 avatars in one single world will not work actually there won't be any space to move.
Thanks everyone, it's difficult to come away with a clear cut answer, I know, but I now understand much more, thanks to you all.
Best
Ramesh


On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 8:24 PM, Wade Schuette <[hidden email]> wrote:
(a) sorry, Maria's last name is Korolov, not what I said.   She's extremely in-touch!

Maria Korolov's profile photo
(b)  side-bar,  the question of scalability.   If you can live with only 50 or fewer users using your system at once,  the OpenSim approach is workable.    One strength of Unity3D,  with SmartFoxServer is that you can potentially deliver the same content to 500,000 people simultaneously with appropriate server power and costs, but no further development.    

Wade



On Fri, Jul 18, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Wade Schuette <[hidden email]> wrote:
Did people see Maria Korlova's post today ?  I got it in a different[ opensim ] thread, in the Digest.
I don't think I'm supposed to repost from one list to another, but this was clearly intended for the open-sim
community so I'll do it this time:

====== begin quote ====
I second the comments above. In my experience, Unity 3D is primarily used by enterprises for promotional materials -- they build an experience, and then they publish it on the web. This could be marketing games, campus tours, product simulations, etc...

Unity 3D is a development platform. You need developers to create anything in it.

OpenSim is a good fit for someone who wants a Second Life-style virtual environment, with in-world building tools, avatars, inventories, etc... but with better controls, backups, and lower-cost land. Anyone can com e in and build, and there's a wealth of content available -- free OARs, Linda Kellie freebies, Kitely Market, hypergrid stores on many grids, etc... Developers aren't needed to create an environment.

There are some overlaps, though. Jibe and SecondPlaces are two products that try to build a virtual world-like system on top of Unity 3D.

Another option,if you're a developer, is WebGL and HTML5. You need a modern browser - Chrome or Firefox -- to visit these worlds but, on the plus side, you don't need to download any software or install any plugins. It just works. 

And I just got off the phone with Douglas Maxwell, and the U.S. Department of Defense has built an entire free, open source virtual environment framework on top of WebGL -- https://virtual.wf 

So if you're leaning towards Unity 3D, take a look at that, as well.

-- Maria
=== end quote =====




--
R. Wade Schuette, CDP, MBA, MPH
698 Monterey Ave
Morro Bay CA 93442
cell: <a href="tel:1%20%28734%29%20635-0508" value="+17346350508" target="_blank">1 (734) 635-0508
fax:  <a href="tel:1%20%28734%29%20864-0318" value="+17348640318" target="_blank">1 (734) 864-0318
[hidden email]

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

aiaustin
In reply to this post by Dr Ramesh Ramloll
I am not an export in Unity and really just followed a tutorial book
to learn about it a little..

Unity Game Development Essentials by Will Goldstone

and then I added in the multi-user MMO building demo.tutorial for SmartFox.

http://virtualautonomy.com/blog/index.php/2009/12/31/unity-3d-a-quick-and-easy-guide-to-creat

I am sure that with enough effort pretty much anything is possible in
Unity3D... so long as the scale of the user numbers is manageable in
terms of the underlying multi-user support you employ.   SmartFox
gives a free licence for up to about 50 simultaneous users and that's
the one I used most and its also used by others such as Jibe and
SecondPlaces which Maria mentioned.

Placing objects from a control panel in world and manipulating them I
think should be possible... assuming a fixed palette of such objects.
The bringing in of dynamically created models and elements not
already in the "asset pack" would be something to make sure you have
a mechanism for in a simple demo before proceeding.  As up to now I
have had all my 3D meshes and object items already in the compiled
app.  The only dynamic external items I had in my demos were web
pages and images from URLs.. which is easy to handle.

If I was starting again now I would target the next version Unity 5
and test out its in built MMO support.

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
123