Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
52 messages Options
123
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

aiaustin
At 11:00 19/07/2014, Ai Austin wrote:
>I am not an export in Unity and really just followed a tutorial book
>to learn about it a little.. Unity Game Development Essentials by
>Will Goldstone

I meant "not an expert" of course... it would be odd to be an "export" - hmmmm?

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

aiaustin
In reply to this post by aiaustin
Unity 5.x MMO support is called "UNET"... an early blog describing
Unity's plans is at

http://blogs.unity3d.com/2014/05/12/announcing-unet-new-unity-multiplayer-technology/

SmartFox Pro and Proton are two of the current multi-user support
libraries used by developers.

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Thanks Ai,

From what I see the Unity blog post was on May 2014 and it appears to be a significant undertaking and they have a larger experienced team (which points that it would probably not be a good idea for me to go on  a unity core development idea ... the odds that I can succeed is close to zero). That probably also explains why I currently have not seen any Unity 3D example that could satisfy my expectations of  deep level collaboration opportunities that is critical for team training. Maria describes the current market for Unity 3D perfectly 'Unity 3D is primarily used by enterprises for promotional materials -- they build an experience, and then they publish it on the web'. And this has wowed a lot of grant reviewers who doled out millions in grant money in the past ... but the collaboration aspect to these projects were lacking. Even users tend to prefer these solutions for only during the initial phase where they are wowed by the fact that they walk straight up with just some form of guess account on an tablet, BUT soon ... enough they start asking for deeper things, that opensim can provide 'easily' with developers with my skill level but not unity unless you have a significant team/or engage in core dev (that's the big irony).

So I guess it will be a race between how fast opensim can get a browser based viewer solution, or less ideally,  tablet viewers that actually work by providing a PC level experience, and how fast the Unity team can develop their server solution. 
What will it take for opensim to win this race? I have been successful in raising funding in the past  more so for my ex employer than for myself alone (unfortunately) ... but still enough on a personal level to keep a roof on my head, how can opensim raise funding more 'like' on a corporate level so that efforts can be pushed in that area? Clearly here we have a case, where opensim is ahead of the game in parts, and lagging in others, but it would be really sad, if it cannot evolve fast enough in those areas where unity shines, and see these competing platforms zoom buy. I also imagine that it would not be hard for unity to replicate some form of Hyper Gridding if they succeed in their MMO effort. Well am sure here that opensim leaders are already thinking about funding issues, just thinking aloud here. What can we do here? Should people write govt grants to support core opensim efforts? I have no clue, just thinking.

Ramesh


On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Ai Austin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Unity 5.x MMO support is called "UNET"... an early blog describing Unity's plans is at

http://blogs.unity3d.com/2014/05/12/announcing-unet-new-unity-multiplayer-technology/

SmartFox Pro and Proton are two of the current multi-user support libraries used by developers.


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Tom Willans
At the Serious Games Institute the predominant development is done using Unity. This has the advantage that games can be run on mobile environments or that you can use the same developers to develop mobile and non-mobile applications.  Whilst people can interact in these environments one seem to have the same level of interaction in terms of adapting and changing objects.  One for instance involves asking questions of roman citizens or going around a school where fire safety issues are simulated, including burning buildings etc. Unity is therefore used for far more than advertising material or promotional materials and is very popular for the production of indie games. OpenSim and SL really do not make very good gaming environments but great collaborative environments. 

For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed.  Unity also does not have a server environment to any great extent. For large multiuser environments people tend to link it with smart fox as a backend and I understand that Smartfox is now making this easier than when I considered it. And yes I agree with Wade about the scalability.

I adopted OpenSim for my research primarily because of the ease in terms of setting up the collaborative environment and building artefacts without professional skills. Unity as it comes does not have this built in. However it is very limited in the platforms it runs on. It will not run on tablets or mobiles - yes there is an android browser but compared to an unity game the quality is very limited indeed. We are in an age of mobile and augmented reality I would love to have a version that works on a tablet rather than being ties to a quite powerful PC or laptop. 

There are a lot of mesh objects available for sale at a reasonable price, at least for any institution wanting to invest in a robust educational solution or using educational technologists.

I think that Opensim really needs to adapt to be usable on a wider range of platforms, mobile, tablet and web to maintain relevance. Maybe it is time to start thinking of the next generation OpenSim?

It really comes down to focusing upon what your needs are. 




On 19 Jul 2014, at 14:06, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:

Thanks Ai,

From what I see the Unity blog post was on May 2014 and it appears to be a significant undertaking and they have a larger experienced team (which points that it would probably not be a good idea for me to go on  a unity core development idea ... the odds that I can succeed is close to zero). That probably also explains why I currently have not seen any Unity 3D example that could satisfy my expectations of  deep level collaboration opportunities that is critical for team training. Maria describes the current market for Unity 3D perfectly 'Unity 3D is primarily used by enterprises for promotional materials -- they build an experience, and then they publish it on the web'. And this has wowed a lot of grant reviewers who doled out millions in grant money in the past ... but the collaboration aspect to these projects were lacking. Even users tend to prefer these solutions for only during the initial phase where they are wowed by the fact that they walk straight up with just some form of guess account on an tablet, BUT soon ... enough they start asking for deeper things, that opensim can provide 'easily' with developers with my skill level but not unity unless you have a significant team/or engage in core dev (that's the big irony).

So I guess it will be a race between how fast opensim can get a browser based viewer solution, or less ideally,  tablet viewers that actually work by providing a PC level experience, and how fast the Unity team can develop their server solution. 
What will it take for opensim to win this race? I have been successful in raising funding in the past  more so for my ex employer than for myself alone (unfortunately) ... but still enough on a personal level to keep a roof on my head, how can opensim raise funding more 'like' on a corporate level so that efforts can be pushed in that area? Clearly here we have a case, where opensim is ahead of the game in parts, and lagging in others, but it would be really sad, if it cannot evolve fast enough in those areas where unity shines, and see these competing platforms zoom buy. I also imagine that it would not be hard for unity to replicate some form of Hyper Gridding if they succeed in their MMO effort. Well am sure here that opensim leaders are already thinking about funding issues, just thinking aloud here. What can we do here? Should people write govt grants to support core opensim efforts? I have no clue, just thinking.

Ramesh


On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 6:19 AM, Ai Austin <[hidden email]> wrote:
Unity 5.x MMO support is called "UNET"... an early blog describing Unity's plans is at

http://blogs.unity3d.com/2014/05/12/announcing-unet-new-unity-multiplayer-technology/

SmartFox Pro and Proton are two of the current multi-user support libraries used by developers.


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040
_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed.

I respectfully beg to differ. This is the core of the my research efforts. A learning environment needs to provide user level tailorability from the core. The fact that it is not available does not mean that it is not needed. I cannot count how many times, subject matter experts felt that their teaching is being canned by the environment, or that students find their expression (through actions) limited. This is the result of extensive evaluation on the ground, both from an ethnographic evaluation perspective and for a user level evaluation perspective. I hope to publish these findings soon (well after I get some time away from writing grant proposals or doing actual building work)


--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
sorry for typo *from a user interface level evaluation perspective* using trading traditional UI evals such as NASA TLX


On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed.

I respectfully beg to differ. This is the core of the my research efforts. A learning environment needs to provide user level tailorability from the core. The fact that it is not available does not mean that it is not needed. I cannot count how many times, subject matter experts felt that their teaching is being canned by the environment, or that students find their expression (through actions) limited. This is the result of extensive evaluation on the ground, both from an ethnographic evaluation perspective and for a user level evaluation perspective. I hope to publish these findings soon (well after I get some time away from writing grant proposals or doing actual building work)



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Toni Alatalo-2
In reply to this post by Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Really interesting research findings - thanks for sharing preliminary infos!

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed.

I respectfully beg to differ. This is the core of the my research efforts. A learning environment needs to provide user level tailorability from the core. The fact that it is not available does not mean that it is not needed. I cannot count how many times, subject matter experts felt that their teaching is being canned by the environment, or that students find their expression (through actions) limited. This is the result of extensive evaluation on the ground, both from an ethnographic evaluation perspective and for a user level evaluation perspective. I hope to publish these findings soon (well after I get some time away from writing grant proposals or doing actual building work)



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Serendipity Seraph-2
There are two things that would make be ecstatic for teaching, meetings and presenting in opensim:

1) direct drive animation of my avatar as I present from my real world movements or very very good presenter animation stacks

2) something from webmeeting space which is to show any app window I wish live on a screen/prim in opensim.   We aren't quite there yet with MOAP although it is a great beginning.

- seren

On 07/19/2014 11:50 AM, Toni Alatalo wrote:
Really interesting research findings - thanks for sharing preliminary infos!

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed.

I respectfully beg to differ. This is the core of the my research efforts. A learning environment needs to provide user level tailorability from the core. The fact that it is not available does not mean that it is not needed. I cannot count how many times, subject matter experts felt that their teaching is being canned by the environment, or that students find their expression (through actions) limited. This is the result of extensive evaluation on the ground, both from an ethnographic evaluation perspective and for a user level evaluation perspective. I hope to publish these findings soon (well after I get some time away from writing grant proposals or doing actual building work)



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Wade Schuette
@Seren,    someone HAS used the X-box Kinect sensor to convert their body position to their avatar position real time for teaching in Second Life.   X-Box is not required apparently, just the Kinect.

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Animation-Forum/new-way-off-controlling-your-avatar-with-the-kinect/td-p/1519523

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussions/Microsoft-Kinect-with-Second-Life/td-p/481989

Google Search on:  Kinect and Second Life,    or Kinect and OpenSim for more references!




Wade


On 7/19/2014 3:43 PM, Seren Seraph wrote:
There are two things that would make be ecstatic for teaching, meetings and presenting in opensim:

1) direct drive animation of my avatar as I present from my real world movements or very very good presenter animation stacks

2) something from webmeeting space which is to show any app window I wish live on a screen/prim in opensim.   We aren't quite there yet with MOAP although it is a great beginning.

- seren

On 07/19/2014 11:50 AM, Toni Alatalo wrote:
Really interesting research findings - thanks for sharing preliminary infos!

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed.

I respectfully beg to differ. This is the core of the my research efforts. A learning environment needs to provide user level tailorability from the core. The fact that it is not available does not mean that it is not needed. I cannot count how many times, subject matter experts felt that their teaching is being canned by the environment, or that students find their expression (through actions) limited. This is the result of extensive evaluation on the ground, both from an ethnographic evaluation perspective and for a user level evaluation perspective. I hope to publish these findings soon (well after I get some time away from writing grant proposals or doing actual building work)



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Doug Danforth
In reply to this post by Dr Ramesh Ramloll
I am with Tom on this one. For many educational uses, adapting and changing objects is not needed. Of course there are educational uses where adapting and changing objects is critical, however many (most?) educational sims I visited in SL did not rely on students working together to create things, and there are plenty of uses where it is simply not needed. Simulations are a perfect example and an area where Unity excels over SL or OpenSim. I built some fairly involved simulations in SL and have since essentially abandoned the platform and switched to Unity. 

As has been said many times, SL/OpenSim is great for collaborative content creation. If you are doing that then sticking with SL/OpenSim makes perfect sense. If you don't need your students to work together and make widgets on the fly, then Unity might be a better choice. 

It is all about using the right tool for the job.

Doug Danforth

On Jul 19, 2014, at 1:02 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed.

I respectfully beg to differ. This is the core of the my research efforts. A learning environment needs to provide user level tailorability from the core. The fact that it is not available does not mean that it is not needed. I cannot count how many times, subject matter experts felt that their teaching is being canned by the environment, or that students find their expression (through actions) limited. This is the result of extensive evaluation on the ground, both from an ethnographic evaluation perspective and for a user level evaluation perspective. I hope to publish these findings soon (well after I get some time away from writing grant proposals or doing actual building work)


--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040
_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Hi Doug,
It also depends on what we mean by malleability of objects, for basic applications such a game board, where the whole object is complex of linked object.... the parts are not changed in itself e.g. game pieces or cards, but the whole is.  Another example I have is an application that generate shapes of molecules, or that students can assemble on their own, and even have a whole chemical reaction play out infront of them ... again there is one object,will linked subparts e.g. atoms, bonds, and so forth ... from this perspective, before we have any really meaningful discussion, we must first establish the boundary between objects, in my case, this boundary is between scripted linksets. With this background, I have yet to find one application that does not benefit from the ability to change each linkset state. Just my two cents.
Ramesh


On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 8:28 PM, DrDoug Pennell <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am with Tom on this one. For many educational uses, adapting and changing objects is not needed. Of course there are educational uses where adapting and changing objects is critical, however many (most?) educational sims I visited in SL did not rely on students working together to create things, and there are plenty of uses where it is simply not needed. Simulations are a perfect example and an area where Unity excels over SL or OpenSim. I built some fairly involved simulations in SL and have since essentially abandoned the platform and switched to Unity. 

As has been said many times, SL/OpenSim is great for collaborative content creation. If you are doing that then sticking with SL/OpenSim makes perfect sense. If you don't need your students to work together and make widgets on the fly, then Unity might be a better choice. 

It is all about using the right tool for the job.

Doug Danforth

On Jul 19, 2014, at 1:02 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed.

I respectfully beg to differ. This is the core of the my research efforts. A learning environment needs to provide user level tailorability from the core. The fact that it is not available does not mean that it is not needed. I cannot count how many times, subject matter experts felt that their teaching is being canned by the environment, or that students find their expression (through actions) limited. This is the result of extensive evaluation on the ground, both from an ethnographic evaluation perspective and for a user level evaluation perspective. I hope to publish these findings soon (well after I get some time away from writing grant proposals or doing actual building work)


--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040
_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
I thought, just to clarify the 'malleability' of linksets I mentioned to point to two examples, because I do realize it might be confusing. So clarify, when I mention 'tailorability of objects', I mean tailorability of linksets. Here are two examples, 
There is a house and objects in it. You will find that I open the fridge, remove a cake and place it on a plate, and then proceed to feed an NPC with the cake. The house and the contents in it, sofa beds, food ..etc... all are linked into one object. That is why I can rez it as one object from the RezMela library.
This is a ludo like board game, here again, everything is linked ... 
Sorry for any confusion.
R


On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 9:14 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Doug,
It also depends on what we mean by malleability of objects, for basic applications such a game board, where the whole object is complex of linked object.... the parts are not changed in itself e.g. game pieces or cards, but the whole is.  Another example I have is an application that generate shapes of molecules, or that students can assemble on their own, and even have a whole chemical reaction play out infront of them ... again there is one object,will linked subparts e.g. atoms, bonds, and so forth ... from this perspective, before we have any really meaningful discussion, we must first establish the boundary between objects, in my case, this boundary is between scripted linksets. With this background, I have yet to find one application that does not benefit from the ability to change each linkset state. Just my two cents.
Ramesh


On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 8:28 PM, DrDoug Pennell <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am with Tom on this one. For many educational uses, adapting and changing objects is not needed. Of course there are educational uses where adapting and changing objects is critical, however many (most?) educational sims I visited in SL did not rely on students working together to create things, and there are plenty of uses where it is simply not needed. Simulations are a perfect example and an area where Unity excels over SL or OpenSim. I built some fairly involved simulations in SL and have since essentially abandoned the platform and switched to Unity. 

As has been said many times, SL/OpenSim is great for collaborative content creation. If you are doing that then sticking with SL/OpenSim makes perfect sense. If you don't need your students to work together and make widgets on the fly, then Unity might be a better choice. 

It is all about using the right tool for the job.

Doug Danforth

On Jul 19, 2014, at 1:02 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed.

I respectfully beg to differ. This is the core of the my research efforts. A learning environment needs to provide user level tailorability from the core. The fact that it is not available does not mean that it is not needed. I cannot count how many times, subject matter experts felt that their teaching is being canned by the environment, or that students find their expression (through actions) limited. This is the result of extensive evaluation on the ground, both from an ethnographic evaluation perspective and for a user level evaluation perspective. I hope to publish these findings soon (well after I get some time away from writing grant proposals or doing actual building work)


--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040
_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Serendipity Seraph-2
In reply to this post by Wade Schuette
OMG, that video is awesome.  So it is possible.  Excellent!  Thank you so much.    I am very curious what the data stream in is.   Would it be possible to just capture the stream and rerun it?  I also wonder what can be done with this for bots.    I am jazzed!

- seren

On 07/19/2014 04:23 PM, Wade wrote:
@Seren,    someone HAS used the X-box Kinect sensor to convert their body position to their avatar position real time for teaching in Second Life.   X-Box is not required apparently, just the Kinect.

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/Animation-Forum/new-way-off-controlling-your-avatar-with-the-kinect/td-p/1519523

http://community.secondlife.com/t5/General-Discussions/Microsoft-Kinect-with-Second-Life/td-p/481989

Google Search on:  Kinect and Second Life,    or Kinect and OpenSim for more references!




Wade


On 7/19/2014 3:43 PM, Seren Seraph wrote:
There are two things that would make be ecstatic for teaching, meetings and presenting in opensim:

1) direct drive animation of my avatar as I present from my real world movements or very very good presenter animation stacks

2) something from webmeeting space which is to show any app window I wish live on a screen/prim in opensim.   We aren't quite there yet with MOAP although it is a great beginning.

- seren

On 07/19/2014 11:50 AM, Toni Alatalo wrote:
Really interesting research findings - thanks for sharing preliminary infos!

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 8:02 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed.

I respectfully beg to differ. This is the core of the my research efforts. A learning environment needs to provide user level tailorability from the core. The fact that it is not available does not mean that it is not needed. I cannot count how many times, subject matter experts felt that their teaching is being canned by the environment, or that students find their expression (through actions) limited. This is the result of extensive evaluation on the ground, both from an ethnographic evaluation perspective and for a user level evaluation perspective. I hope to publish these findings soon (well after I get some time away from writing grant proposals or doing actual building work)



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll

On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:38 PM, Seren Seraph <[hidden email]> wrote:
Would it be possible to just capture the stream and rerun it?

'Would it be possible to just capture the stream (if I understand correctly, the stream of data for each object in the linkset) and rerun it?' at this time, the way we (myself and Handy Low) designed and implemented it at the moment, it just stores spatial data of each prim ... just like puppeteer systems ... so if by rerun, you mean, re-running movements of object parts, then yes it does, may be in the future it would be nice to store other things ... 
For the bots part of the question, I am not sure myself ...
btw I am glad you like the video :) sincere thanks. You can experience the house and its objects, by taking part in our machina competition, just rez the house and play around. I will be grateful if you do (sorry for shameless plug ... the more we see people use these stuff, the more we learn, and try to adjust our course accordingly).

--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Doug Danforth
In reply to this post by Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Hi Ramesh,

Both of those examples can be done in Unity. Is it worth spending the time and money to convert them to Unity? Maybe not. It just depends on whether your students can accomplish what they need to accomplish on the platform you've chosen.

I spent several years trying to run 200 medical students through simulations in SL. It took so much time just managing their problems and helping them deal with the complexity of the SL UI that I gave up and switched to Unity. I now just give them a web link and off they go. I can embed that link into eLearning Modules and create an incredibly portable and easily manageable experience. I can deliver that via the web or as an app.

Collaboratively creating new things (that didn't exist in world) is pretty difficult in Unity. Collaboratively manipulating things that already exist is much easier, and the basis of almost every multiplayer Unity game. You work with or against your collaborator to whack the head off of some villain or uncover the secrets of the story.

My only point was that most of what I saw in SL with regards to education did not require the user (student) to create things that did not exist previously. Rather it involved interacting with interpretations of classic stories, traveling through recreations of existing structures, etc. Those educational sims that required student to work together to create things related to the lesson being taught, truly leveraged the power of SL. Those that didn't might be good candidates for Unity, if the developer has the time, talent, and resources to create the experience. 

Indeed, that is where it gets difficult because there is no question that it requires much greater skill to create in Unity. If we are honest with ourselves, most of what exists in SL was created by amateurs (like me). We learned how to build and script but most had little if any actual formal training in 3-D design, sophisticated programming, or game theory. Switching to Unity almost forces one to employ (or become) a professional designer or programmer. In my opinion (and it is just that - an opinion), it will become increasingly difficult to justify to granting agencies the continued use of platforms such as SL or OpenSim because they are not viewed as professional gaming platforms, and with few exceptions reviewers consider the use of avatars in virtual spaces as "games". 

Doug

On Jul 19, 2014, at 11:03 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:

I thought, just to clarify the 'malleability' of linksets I mentioned to point to two examples, because I do realize it might be confusing. So clarify, when I mention 'tailorability of objects', I mean tailorability of linksets. Here are two examples, 
There is a house and objects in it. You will find that I open the fridge, remove a cake and place it on a plate, and then proceed to feed an NPC with the cake. The house and the contents in it, sofa beds, food ..etc... all are linked into one object. That is why I can rez it as one object from the RezMela library.
This is a ludo like board game, here again, everything is linked ... 
Sorry for any confusion.
R


On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 9:14 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Doug,
It also depends on what we mean by malleability of objects, for basic applications such a game board, where the whole object is complex of linked object.... the parts are not changed in itself e.g. game pieces or cards, but the whole is.  Another example I have is an application that generate shapes of molecules, or that students can assemble on their own, and even have a whole chemical reaction play out infront of them ... again there is one object,will linked subparts e.g. atoms, bonds, and so forth ... from this perspective, before we have any really meaningful discussion, we must first establish the boundary between objects, in my case, this boundary is between scripted linksets. With this background, I have yet to find one application that does not benefit from the ability to change each linkset state. Just my two cents.
Ramesh


On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 8:28 PM, DrDoug Pennell <[hidden email]> wrote:
I am with Tom on this one. For many educational uses, adapting and changing objects is not needed. Of course there are educational uses where adapting and changing objects is critical, however many (most?) educational sims I visited in SL did not rely on students working together to create things, and there are plenty of uses where it is simply not needed. Simulations are a perfect example and an area where Unity excels over SL or OpenSim. I built some fairly involved simulations in SL and have since essentially abandoned the platform and switched to Unity. 

As has been said many times, SL/OpenSim is great for collaborative content creation. If you are doing that then sticking with SL/OpenSim makes perfect sense. If you don't need your students to work together and make widgets on the fly, then Unity might be a better choice. 

It is all about using the right tool for the job.

Doug Danforth

On Jul 19, 2014, at 1:02 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:


On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 12:45 PM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed.

I respectfully beg to differ. This is the core of the my research efforts. A learning environment needs to provide user level tailorability from the core. The fact that it is not available does not mean that it is not needed. I cannot count how many times, subject matter experts felt that their teaching is being canned by the environment, or that students find their expression (through actions) limited. This is the result of extensive evaluation on the ground, both from an ethnographic evaluation perspective and for a user level evaluation perspective. I hope to publish these findings soon (well after I get some time away from writing grant proposals or doing actual building work)


--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040
_______________________________________________

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040
_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Kay McLennan
In reply to this post by Tom Willans
On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:45 AM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
...For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed...
 
While it is true that some types of educational simulations are well suited for static simulations (like a virtual tour of the inner workings of a human body part or a historic recreation of a city), static (Unity platform-like) builds are completely ill-suited for the types of online economics and business studies college courses I teach.  

Even the online courses that utilize extensive instructor- or institution-created materials always simultaneously utilize a textbook (to insure the transmission of the relevant portion of the course-specific common body of knowledge).  In turn, the textbooks I utilize in all of my courses change each year.  Sometimes the textbook changes simply involve a [maddening] re-sort of the chapters (to enable the publisher to change the edition and sell more new copies of the text).  Still (and more importantly), it is often the case that the material in the textbook changes (and these changes need to be reflected in the course materials and activities).  For example, social media marketing is now one of the most important components in the field of marketing but was barely mentioned in textbooks even as recently as a few years ago.  Similarly, the cases in business ethics textbooks continue to change at an almost exponential rate owing to the abundance of new real work examples of unethical behavior (think GMC, BP, the financial meltdown, GMOs, fracking, and more!).

Further, college students (including traditional and non traditional aged students) are pressed for time and require course-specific learning simulations only.  That is, students do not have the time to explore virtual world simulations that are only tangentially related to the course learning objectives.  Rather, the virtual world learning simulations have to be graded activities that are worth their time (in the sense of being detailed and expansive enough to contribute specifically to their understanding of the course material).  Again, in the same way high quality college textbooks and online course sites require continual updates and upgrades, high quality virtual world simulations need to be updated and upgraded -- to contribute specifically to students' understanding of the course material.

Also (and this is a BIG item), I am constantly thinking up (and testing) new types of virtual world learning simulations.  In other words, my view is that it would be too limiting to be only be able to create a simulation once.  In contrast, right now, I currently have about 40 or more different types of virtual world learning simulations "in play" [read:  that I collect student feedback data on (based on student -- Likert scale-based -- views on the interactivity, engagement, and contribution to learning outcomes for each simulation -- see some of the early data collected at:  https://sites.google.com/site/fvwc12mclennan/student-survey-data-2)].  Note:  Over the years, students have provided excellent and surprising feedback.  For example, in the basic economics course I teach, I thought students would be keenly interested in the Free Trade Game I built (with each student the president/king/queen/dictator of their own island nation).  However, the in-world PP slides (from my lecture notes that are also uploaded into my course site) and the in-world vocabulary flash cards were rated markedly higher than the Free Trade Game in every category.

Note:  My college-level students almost universally [first] say they need asynchronous virtual world learning activities ONLY (in keeping with how all of my online courses are asynchronous).  However, after the students get some experience with the virtual world learning activities, they almost universally request real time meet-ups in-world!  That is, one of the main attractions of virtual worlds continues to be the ability to interact with others in-world.

Finally, while I keep trying all of the different available virtual platforms, to date (and for the reasons detailed above), I believe the OpenSim platform is the best fit for my online college-level virtual world learning simulations.  [Still, I will confess to being particularly taken with the genius and intuitive "ease of use" of the smartphone control panel or interface feature in the Cloud Party virtual world viewer.  That is, while the Firestorm or Singularity or other OpenSim viewers work perfectly for me (and I do NOT think a virtual world viewer has to be browser-based!), I wonder if a second type of OpenSim viewer (that is geared for a beginning user only) might be needed (?)...]

Best,
Kay

Kay L. McLennan, Ph.D.
Professor of Practice
School of Continuing Studies
Tulane University
e-Course Teaching Schedule & Syllabi @ http://www.tulane.edu/~kmclenna/

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Hi Doug,
'Collaboratively manipulating things that already exist is much easier, and the basis of almost every multiplayer Unity game. You work with or against your collaborator to whack the head off of some villain or uncover the secrets of the story.'

Just a note here, the system RezMela has already allowed instructors to create a wide diverse range of stories, so there is not one story. The malleable linkset does not contain a fixed number of parts, in fact, it grows and shrinks, so it is not just direct manipulation. The 3D molecule model kit I mentioned earlier for e.g. is in fact like a 3D editor, where atoms can be created, duplicated, connected joined ... in another example, you could use the same principle to teach garden design for e.g. where the task would be to great various plants instances and rearrange to create new garden experiences and so forth... 
So again, when I talk about malleability, it is really well defined and specific. I see it is being stretched too far so that it became meaningless.... and I probably should coin another term.
Glad Unity is working great for you. Point to us some clips, your success is worth sharing absolutely, and will be very useful to me as I continue to explore.
Ramesh


On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 10:24 AM, Kay McLennan <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:45 AM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
...For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed...
 
While it is true that some types of educational simulations are well suited for static simulations (like a virtual tour of the inner workings of a human body part or a historic recreation of a city), static (Unity platform-like) builds are completely ill-suited for the types of online economics and business studies college courses I teach.  

Even the online courses that utilize extensive instructor- or institution-created materials always simultaneously utilize a textbook (to insure the transmission of the relevant portion of the course-specific common body of knowledge).  In turn, the textbooks I utilize in all of my courses change each year.  Sometimes the textbook changes simply involve a [maddening] re-sort of the chapters (to enable the publisher to change the edition and sell more new copies of the text).  Still (and more importantly), it is often the case that the material in the textbook changes (and these changes need to be reflected in the course materials and activities).  For example, social media marketing is now one of the most important components in the field of marketing but was barely mentioned in textbooks even as recently as a few years ago.  Similarly, the cases in business ethics textbooks continue to change at an almost exponential rate owing to the abundance of new real work examples of unethical behavior (think GMC, BP, the financial meltdown, GMOs, fracking, and more!).

Further, college students (including traditional and non traditional aged students) are pressed for time and require course-specific learning simulations only.  That is, students do not have the time to explore virtual world simulations that are only tangentially related to the course learning objectives.  Rather, the virtual world learning simulations have to be graded activities that are worth their time (in the sense of being detailed and expansive enough to contribute specifically to their understanding of the course material).  Again, in the same way high quality college textbooks and online course sites require continual updates and upgrades, high quality virtual world simulations need to be updated and upgraded -- to contribute specifically to students' understanding of the course material.

Also (and this is a BIG item), I am constantly thinking up (and testing) new types of virtual world learning simulations.  In other words, my view is that it would be too limiting to be only be able to create a simulation once.  In contrast, right now, I currently have about 40 or more different types of virtual world learning simulations "in play" [read:  that I collect student feedback data on (based on student -- Likert scale-based -- views on the interactivity, engagement, and contribution to learning outcomes for each simulation -- see some of the early data collected at:  https://sites.google.com/site/fvwc12mclennan/student-survey-data-2)].  Note:  Over the years, students have provided excellent and surprising feedback.  For example, in the basic economics course I teach, I thought students would be keenly interested in the Free Trade Game I built (with each student the president/king/queen/dictator of their own island nation).  However, the in-world PP slides (from my lecture notes that are also uploaded into my course site) and the in-world vocabulary flash cards were rated markedly higher than the Free Trade Game in every category.

Note:  My college-level students almost universally [first] say they need asynchronous virtual world learning activities ONLY (in keeping with how all of my online courses are asynchronous).  However, after the students get some experience with the virtual world learning activities, they almost universally request real time meet-ups in-world!  That is, one of the main attractions of virtual worlds continues to be the ability to interact with others in-world.

Finally, while I keep trying all of the different available virtual platforms, to date (and for the reasons detailed above), I believe the OpenSim platform is the best fit for my online college-level virtual world learning simulations.  [Still, I will confess to being particularly taken with the genius and intuitive "ease of use" of the smartphone control panel or interface feature in the Cloud Party virtual world viewer.  That is, while the Firestorm or Singularity or other OpenSim viewers work perfectly for me (and I do NOT think a virtual world viewer has to be browser-based!), I wonder if a second type of OpenSim viewer (that is geared for a beginning user only) might be needed (?)...]

Best,
Kay

Kay L. McLennan, Ph.D.
Professor of Practice
School of Continuing Studies
Tulane University
e-Course Teaching Schedule & Syllabi @ http://www.tulane.edu/~kmclenna/

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Hi Kay,
'Even the online courses that utilize extensive instructor- or institution-created materials always simultaneously utilize a textbook (to insure the transmission of the relevant portion of the course-specific common body of knowledge).  In turn, the textbooks I utilize in all of my courses change each year.  Sometimes the textbook changes simply involve a [maddening] re-sort of the chapters (to enable the publisher to change the edition and sell more new copies of the text).  Still (and more importantly), it is often the case that the material in the textbook changes (and these changes need to be reflected in the course materials and activities).'

This observation is spot ON. Actually we have to face exactly the same issues for hazmat emergency response courses and I suspect this is true for most fields.

R


On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Doug,
'Collaboratively manipulating things that already exist is much easier, and the basis of almost every multiplayer Unity game. You work with or against your collaborator to whack the head off of some villain or uncover the secrets of the story.'

Just a note here, the system RezMela has already allowed instructors to create a wide diverse range of stories, so there is not one story. The malleable linkset does not contain a fixed number of parts, in fact, it grows and shrinks, so it is not just direct manipulation. The 3D molecule model kit I mentioned earlier for e.g. is in fact like a 3D editor, where atoms can be created, duplicated, connected joined ... in another example, you could use the same principle to teach garden design for e.g. where the task would be to great various plants instances and rearrange to create new garden experiences and so forth... 
So again, when I talk about malleability, it is really well defined and specific. I see it is being stretched too far so that it became meaningless.... and I probably should coin another term.
Glad Unity is working great for you. Point to us some clips, your success is worth sharing absolutely, and will be very useful to me as I continue to explore.
Ramesh


On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 10:24 AM, Kay McLennan <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:45 AM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
...For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed...
 
While it is true that some types of educational simulations are well suited for static simulations (like a virtual tour of the inner workings of a human body part or a historic recreation of a city), static (Unity platform-like) builds are completely ill-suited for the types of online economics and business studies college courses I teach.  

Even the online courses that utilize extensive instructor- or institution-created materials always simultaneously utilize a textbook (to insure the transmission of the relevant portion of the course-specific common body of knowledge).  In turn, the textbooks I utilize in all of my courses change each year.  Sometimes the textbook changes simply involve a [maddening] re-sort of the chapters (to enable the publisher to change the edition and sell more new copies of the text).  Still (and more importantly), it is often the case that the material in the textbook changes (and these changes need to be reflected in the course materials and activities).  For example, social media marketing is now one of the most important components in the field of marketing but was barely mentioned in textbooks even as recently as a few years ago.  Similarly, the cases in business ethics textbooks continue to change at an almost exponential rate owing to the abundance of new real work examples of unethical behavior (think GMC, BP, the financial meltdown, GMOs, fracking, and more!).

Further, college students (including traditional and non traditional aged students) are pressed for time and require course-specific learning simulations only.  That is, students do not have the time to explore virtual world simulations that are only tangentially related to the course learning objectives.  Rather, the virtual world learning simulations have to be graded activities that are worth their time (in the sense of being detailed and expansive enough to contribute specifically to their understanding of the course material).  Again, in the same way high quality college textbooks and online course sites require continual updates and upgrades, high quality virtual world simulations need to be updated and upgraded -- to contribute specifically to students' understanding of the course material.

Also (and this is a BIG item), I am constantly thinking up (and testing) new types of virtual world learning simulations.  In other words, my view is that it would be too limiting to be only be able to create a simulation once.  In contrast, right now, I currently have about 40 or more different types of virtual world learning simulations "in play" [read:  that I collect student feedback data on (based on student -- Likert scale-based -- views on the interactivity, engagement, and contribution to learning outcomes for each simulation -- see some of the early data collected at:  https://sites.google.com/site/fvwc12mclennan/student-survey-data-2)].  Note:  Over the years, students have provided excellent and surprising feedback.  For example, in the basic economics course I teach, I thought students would be keenly interested in the Free Trade Game I built (with each student the president/king/queen/dictator of their own island nation).  However, the in-world PP slides (from my lecture notes that are also uploaded into my course site) and the in-world vocabulary flash cards were rated markedly higher than the Free Trade Game in every category.

Note:  My college-level students almost universally [first] say they need asynchronous virtual world learning activities ONLY (in keeping with how all of my online courses are asynchronous).  However, after the students get some experience with the virtual world learning activities, they almost universally request real time meet-ups in-world!  That is, one of the main attractions of virtual worlds continues to be the ability to interact with others in-world.

Finally, while I keep trying all of the different available virtual platforms, to date (and for the reasons detailed above), I believe the OpenSim platform is the best fit for my online college-level virtual world learning simulations.  [Still, I will confess to being particularly taken with the genius and intuitive "ease of use" of the smartphone control panel or interface feature in the Cloud Party virtual world viewer.  That is, while the Firestorm or Singularity or other OpenSim viewers work perfectly for me (and I do NOT think a virtual world viewer has to be browser-based!), I wonder if a second type of OpenSim viewer (that is geared for a beginning user only) might be needed (?)...]

Best,
Kay

Kay L. McLennan, Ph.D.
Professor of Practice
School of Continuing Studies
Tulane University
e-Course Teaching Schedule & Syllabi @ http://www.tulane.edu/~kmclenna/

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Tom Willans
Hi Ramesh,

I did not mean to drop a comment and disappear - focusing upon writing avoiding distractions. Doug captured my meaning in that I do not disagree with involvement or adapting for the student; quite the opposite. Synthetic environments are good interactive and collaborative environments - use them.  I also agree with Doug that what you have displayed could be done in Unity but it might involve a lot of extra work for you. I do hope that grant bodies do not limit themselves to unity only solutions or just using professional graphic designers. Some of the amateurs in SL and OpenSim are either very skilled or in fact hobby professionals, working within its constraints. I also get the impression that even now a lot of academics are trying to fit in development work on the side though so the in-world design tools help here. Whether this is sensible use of an academics time is another matter. 

Your and Kay's research look fascinating. I am not sure to what extent you mean by built in to the core? Do you mean that different scenarios can be readily set up by the instructors? Unity, SL, OpenSim all have their constraints and limitations. In both unity and Opensim avatars have limited scope for emotional expressions and translating external movement and gestures although OpenSim and SL has a lot of flexibility in terms of dress and attachments helping with the formation of identity. I am not sure about the rigging in Unity though. 

I seem to recall the SGI in a school fire awareness game were able to download and change some textures e.g. warning signs (not sure about other assets on the fly) downloaded from an external WikiMedia using Unity to cope with changes associated with different languages and countries in the EU.  Daden I think using OpenSim and SL developed a scenario editor. It might be nice if an easier front end to the OpenSim database would do the same. I came close to developing one in my Heritage business but could not see a way to make a financial return and pay the bills. Decided to do a PhD instead! 

Tom




On 20 Jul 2014, at 19:54, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi Kay,
'Even the online courses that utilize extensive instructor- or institution-created materials always simultaneously utilize a textbook (to insure the transmission of the relevant portion of the course-specific common body of knowledge).  In turn, the textbooks I utilize in all of my courses change each year.  Sometimes the textbook changes simply involve a [maddening] re-sort of the chapters (to enable the publisher to change the edition and sell more new copies of the text).  Still (and more importantly), it is often the case that the material in the textbook changes (and these changes need to be reflected in the course materials and activities).'

This observation is spot ON. Actually we have to face exactly the same issues for hazmat emergency response courses and I suspect this is true for most fields.

R


On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 2:37 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Doug,
'Collaboratively manipulating things that already exist is much easier, and the basis of almost every multiplayer Unity game. You work with or against your collaborator to whack the head off of some villain or uncover the secrets of the story.'

Just a note here, the system RezMela has already allowed instructors to create a wide diverse range of stories, so there is not one story. The malleable linkset does not contain a fixed number of parts, in fact, it grows and shrinks, so it is not just direct manipulation. The 3D molecule model kit I mentioned earlier for e.g. is in fact like a 3D editor, where atoms can be created, duplicated, connected joined ... in another example, you could use the same principle to teach garden design for e.g. where the task would be to great various plants instances and rearrange to create new garden experiences and so forth... 
So again, when I talk about malleability, it is really well defined and specific. I see it is being stretched too far so that it became meaningless.... and I probably should coin another term.
Glad Unity is working great for you. Point to us some clips, your success is worth sharing absolutely, and will be very useful to me as I continue to explore.
Ramesh


On Sun, Jul 20, 2014 at 10:24 AM, Kay McLennan <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, Jul 19, 2014 at 11:45 AM, Tom <[hidden email]> wrote:
 
...For many educational uses adapting and changing objects is not needed...
 
While it is true that some types of educational simulations are well suited for static simulations (like a virtual tour of the inner workings of a human body part or a historic recreation of a city), static (Unity platform-like) builds are completely ill-suited for the types of online economics and business studies college courses I teach.  

Even the online courses that utilize extensive instructor- or institution-created materials always simultaneously utilize a textbook (to insure the transmission of the relevant portion of the course-specific common body of knowledge).  In turn, the textbooks I utilize in all of my courses change each year.  Sometimes the textbook changes simply involve a [maddening] re-sort of the chapters (to enable the publisher to change the edition and sell more new copies of the text).  Still (and more importantly), it is often the case that the material in the textbook changes (and these changes need to be reflected in the course materials and activities).  For example, social media marketing is now one of the most important components in the field of marketing but was barely mentioned in textbooks even as recently as a few years ago.  Similarly, the cases in business ethics textbooks continue to change at an almost exponential rate owing to the abundance of new real work examples of unethical behavior (think GMC, BP, the financial meltdown, GMOs, fracking, and more!).

Further, college students (including traditional and non traditional aged students) are pressed for time and require course-specific learning simulations only.  That is, students do not have the time to explore virtual world simulations that are only tangentially related to the course learning objectives.  Rather, the virtual world learning simulations have to be graded activities that are worth their time (in the sense of being detailed and expansive enough to contribute specifically to their understanding of the course material).  Again, in the same way high quality college textbooks and online course sites require continual updates and upgrades, high quality virtual world simulations need to be updated and upgraded -- to contribute specifically to students' understanding of the course material.

Also (and this is a BIG item), I am constantly thinking up (and testing) new types of virtual world learning simulations.  In other words, my view is that it would be too limiting to be only be able to create a simulation once.  In contrast, right now, I currently have about 40 or more different types of virtual world learning simulations "in play" [read:  that I collect student feedback data on (based on student -- Likert scale-based -- views on the interactivity, engagement, and contribution to learning outcomes for each simulation -- see some of the early data collected at:  https://sites.google.com/site/fvwc12mclennan/student-survey-data-2)].  Note:  Over the years, students have provided excellent and surprising feedback.  For example, in the basic economics course I teach, I thought students would be keenly interested in the Free Trade Game I built (with each student the president/king/queen/dictator of their own island nation).  However, the in-world PP slides (from my lecture notes that are also uploaded into my course site) and the in-world vocabulary flash cards were rated markedly higher than the Free Trade Game in every category.

Note:  My college-level students almost universally [first] say they need asynchronous virtual world learning activities ONLY (in keeping with how all of my online courses are asynchronous).  However, after the students get some experience with the virtual world learning activities, they almost universally request real time meet-ups in-world!  That is, one of the main attractions of virtual worlds continues to be the ability to interact with others in-world.

Finally, while I keep trying all of the different available virtual platforms, to date (and for the reasons detailed above), I believe the OpenSim platform is the best fit for my online college-level virtual world learning simulations.  [Still, I will confess to being particularly taken with the genius and intuitive "ease of use" of the smartphone control panel or interface feature in the Cloud Party virtual world viewer.  That is, while the Firestorm or Singularity or other OpenSim viewers work perfectly for me (and I do NOT think a virtual world viewer has to be browser-based!), I wonder if a second type of OpenSim viewer (that is geared for a beginning user only) might be needed (?)...]

Best,
Kay

Kay L. McLennan, Ph.D.
Professor of Practice
School of Continuing Studies
Tulane University
e-Course Teaching Schedule & Syllabi @ http://www.tulane.edu/~kmclenna/

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040
_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Hoping for a fearless comparison of opensim vs unity 3D

Doug Danforth
These folks have done some interesting work on creating characters that can be used in Unity.


Doug

Your and Kay's research look fascinating. I am not sure to what extent you mean by built in to the core? Do you mean that different scenarios can be readily set up by the instructors? Unity, SL, OpenSim all have their constraints and limitations. In both unity and Opensim avatars have limited scope for emotional expressions and translating external movement and gestures although OpenSim and SL has a lot of flexibility in terms of dress and attachments helping with the formation of identity. I am not sure about the rigging in Unity though.

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
123