Hypergrid Things, Jumps, SLurls, Hop URLs and Maps

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Hypergrid Things, Jumps, SLurls, Hop URLs and Maps

aiaustin
Folks... I have a bunch of things I keep coming across when
hypergridding about  and when trying to explain to new users and less
experienced visitors how to set up an avatar and how to get between grids.

My experience here is mostly between OSGrid and Openvue grid with
very recent updates to the server side code (all on latest versions
of 0.7.6 dev master) and using an up to date viewer such as Firestorm
4.4.0 OS version.  I believe (!) they are all configured correctly
but you never know. And I see the same issues on all grids I visit
and with multiple viewers.

I have not made sense of these so just make some notes here in the
hope that someone can weigh in who might have seen some systematic
thing that is easily corrected via correction or improvements to
various .ini settings, on the OpenSim dev side, or that we can give
good OpenSim related suggestions to the TPV code developers to
improve matters.  So in no particular order...

Since the way of specifying HG links changed to the form
<a href="http://gridname:port">http://gridname:port region_name rather than
<a href="http://gridname:port:region_name">http://gridname:port:region_name with a : connector it seems that
some places where this string worked have been lost.. such as in
local chat (which automatically added a clickable link that worked as
a way to jump about.

There used to be a way to create a "local name" on one grid when a
"link-region" was done and that local name could be fouinf directly
in the map search...  and the "help hypergrid" help text still refers
to such a "local name" in the context of unlink-region command.  But
I think such a local link is not available now?  And  when the link
is created you have to give the full <a href="http://gridname:port/">http://gridname:port/ 
region_name in the map search to find the region, rather than being
able to use just region_name.  Is that right?  Could be get a "local
name" mapping back that would work as a lookup string in maps?

I am not seeing the map tile for hypergid regions until I actually do
the jump and arrive.  In map view I can find a hypergrid region and
the map zooms to that region cell but it just shows as blank blue. It
often shows as "offline" whe its actually online and you can click
and jump to it, and it shows its rating as "unknown" even though its
set to "Moderate".  I do see my OpenSim.exe console saying it has
sent the map jumped, but nothing shows in the viewer map tool.

I see a range of linked regions presumably from all hypergrid
visitors who make a jump back to their home grid. they all show as
mapped to a (very large) X location like 29539) and a y location of
0.  Is this working as it should?  I only noticed this when I tried
to make a "real" link-region and found it was already in place with
this X, 0 mapping - presumably from a earlier hypergrid jump.

As you can see this is a bumnch of notes and I did not feel it was
suitable for  a mantis issue yet... but I would appreciate any
feedback if there is something going on that I may have missed.. or
suggestions on how to get this all in better shape especially for
less experienced users to navigate and understand.

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Re: Hypergrid Things, Jumps, SLurls, Hop URLs and Maps

Jeff Kelley
At 8:21 PM +0100 6/3/13, Ai Austin wrote:

>Since the way of specifying HG links changed to the form <a href="http://gridname:port">http://gridname:port
>region_name rather than <a href="http://gridname:port:region_name">http://gridname:port:region_name with a : connector it
>seems that some places where this string worked have been lost.. such as in
>local chat (which automatically added a clickable link that worked as a way to
>jump about.

The syntax depends on the interface you talk with.

I keep an external travel book with links in the form:

secondlife://virtual.aiai.ed.ac.uk:8002:Vue-5000/

This is parsed as an URI by text editors, web browsers, mailers,
IRC/IM clients and make it easy to share hyperlinks outside the world.

It can be also typed in the chat bar. In this case, the trailing / is
mandatory (i'm referring to Imprudence).

secondlife://virtual.aiai.ed.ac.uk:8002:Vue-5000/ will be clickable on chat bar
secondlife://virtual.aiai.ed.ac.uk:8002:Vue-5000  will not

You've got problems with spaces in region names:

secondlife://hg.osgrid.org:80:Lbsa Plaza/

Although this is clickable when typed in Imprudence's chat bar, it is
not in a text file. This is not clickable in the mailer i'm using
now. A common way to force the parsing is to enclose the URI in angle
brackets:

<secondlife://hg.osgrid.org:80:Lbsa Plaza/>

The full link get passed to Imprudence, without the brackets.

This is my favorite way to store and use hyperlinks. I never type in
the map (clicking once is faster than copy/paste). I can go to
Vue-5000 from this mail in one click.

If you look at an hypergrid directory, say
http://www.hyperica.com/?s=Openvue you'll see the link is:

secondlife://http://virtual.aiai.ed.ac.uk:8002//128/128/128/

This doesn't work with Imprudence (you got the question mark).

secondlife://virtual.aiai.ed.ac.uk:8002:Vue-5000/ does.

I know Firestorm has a different syntax with !! and i still wonder why.


-- Jeff
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Re: Hypergrid Things, Jumps, SLurls, Hop URLs and Maps

aiaustin
In reply to this post by aiaustin

>From: Jeff Kelley <[hidden email]>
>
>The syntax depends on the interface you talk with.


Thanks Jeff, that's a useful summary... and the mixture of methods
and syntaxes just shows why its so complicated for new users ... add
in what works pasted into search in the map tool and its even more
choices... knowing what works and what does not really is over complicated.

I also see this method of typing in chat and IM (and is used -
needed? - in links in the V3 style "destination guide" which BlueWall
recently implemented in OpenSim).

secondlife:///app/teleport/hg.osgrid.org:80:Lbsa%20Plaza

I think this needs the : style and does not allow spaces before the
region name.

I wonder if this could all be simplified if there was ONE hypergrid
URL style suign just the : or a / separator before the region name
rather than the HG2.0 introduction of a space in there?  Maybe Diva
can comment on why the space form was introduced and if its needed?

If we had one style we can maybe then persuade the viewer developers
especially for those with OpenSim variants now to better support the
formats in all the places to make things easier specially for new
users and infrequent guests joining in VW meetings.

I have started to note some of the issues, inconsistencies  where
they seem to give problems on mantis. Including some actual bugs.
http://opensimulator.org/mantis/view.php?id=6656

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Re: Hypergrid Things, Jumps, SLurls, Hop URLs and Maps

Jeff Kelley
At 11:39 AM +0100 6/5/13, Ai Austin wrote:

>Thanks Jeff, that's a useful summary... and the mixture of methods
>and syntaxes just shows why its so complicated for new users ... add
>in what works pasted into search in the map tool and its even more
>choices... knowing what works and what does not really is over
>complicated.

Typing in the map is less automatic, so i generally disregard it.

When hypergriding with friends, you need to communicate link. You use
in-world chat and everybody just ^H to open history and click. No
copy-paste.

If someone crashed, you use external IM : join me at secondlife://...
Again, single-click in the IM window and your are there.

It relies on inter-process communication : an application decodes the
URI, recognize the "secondfile://" scheme and pass it to the app
registered as your sl client. This is the way HG web directories
works.

This is the "old way". Now, we have !!!! hyperlinks.

Have a look at http://www.hyperica.com/

HG URL secondlife://3d.newworldgrid.com:8002/128/128/128/
HG V3 URL secondlife://http|!!3d.newworldgrid.com|8002+

Both work if i paste them in my travel book (plain text file).

It works also in Imprudence's chat, provided you add the trailing slash.
(i think this is a flaw in Impru's URI parser, we shoud refer to
rfc2396 to know).



>I think this needs the : style and does not allow spaces before the
>region name.

I admit i've never seen a hyperlink with space *before* the region
name. This would break the parsing, which must decide where the URI
stops. That's why we use escape codes like %20. This is an
alternative to bracketing.

<secondlife:///app/teleport/hg.osgrid.org:80:Lbsa Plaza>
secondlife:///app/teleport/hg.osgrid.org:80:Lbsa%20Plaza

are the same for an URI parser. Both will result in the same string
with embedded spaces being passed to Imprudence/Firestorm.


-- Jeff



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Re: Hypergrid Things, Jumps, SLurls, Hop URLs and Maps

aiaustin
In reply to this post by aiaustin

>From: Jeff Kelley <[hidden email]>
>What is the 'hop' scheme? Maybe your computer knows how to handle it.
>Mine doesn't. Is it an attempt to get rid of a trademark in schemes?
>If so, it should be registered to IANA.
>
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URI_scheme

I see the hop:// type link in Firestorm 4.4.0 OS whenever I teleport
on or between OpenSim grids.  I assumed it was something added by the
server side in OpenSim (can an OpenSim dev state if this s the case
or not?).. but maybe its just a viewer side things and perhaps only
in Firestorm?

Its NOT something that my (Windows) operating system level
recognizes, so the viewer is not installing itself with an
association to the hop:// URI protocol scheme, which if its to be
generally useful it ought to.

Anyway, I asked about this on the FireStorm JIRA issue related to
trying to make hypergrid and OpenSim teleport jumps (hops) much more
uniform and to try to get them working in more contexts.

http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-10549#comment-113564

There are just so many variants here...  it could use a radical
simplification and tidy up. But maybe I am missing the point and
their are good reasons for all these variants, multiple colon forms,
and the use of spaces in the before region names in recent HG
addresses and so on that are vital.


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Re: Hypergrid Things, Jumps, SLurls, Hop URLs and Maps

Fleep Tuque
Hi Ai,

I asked a similar question back in 2011 when I was still trying to figure out how HG jumping worked because it IS very confusing - and not just for newbies.  I still don't really understand all the different permutations, limitations, and issues.  Not sure if it would be helpful, but several people replied to my message and some of their responses might have information that's still current.


I think it is a very worthwhile endeavor to try to simplify the naming and address scheme, or at least make it consistent.  I'd also like to see the region coordinates somehow included in the address, personally, since knowing that information is crucial to making a successful jump and not all HG region or grid operators publish that info in easily found places.

Sincerely,

- Chris/Fleep


Chris M. Collins (Avatar: Fleep Tuque)
Center for Simulations & Virtual Environments Research (UCSIM)
UCIT Instructional & Research Computing
University of Cincinnati
406A Zimmer Hall
315 College Drive
PO BOX 210088
Cincinnati, OH 45221-0088
(513) 556-3018

http://ucsim.uc.edu

On Mon, Jun 10, 2013 at 1:53 PM, Ai Austin <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Jeff Kelley <[hidden email]>

What is the 'hop' scheme? Maybe your computer knows how to handle it.
Mine doesn't. Is it an attempt to get rid of a trademark in schemes?
If so, it should be registered to IANA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/URI_scheme

I see the hop:// type link in Firestorm 4.4.0 OS whenever I teleport on or between OpenSim grids.  I assumed it was something added by the server side in OpenSim (can an OpenSim dev state if this s the case or not?).. but maybe its just a viewer side things and perhaps only in Firestorm?

Its NOT something that my (Windows) operating system level recognizes, so the viewer is not installing itself with an association to the hop:// URI protocol scheme, which if its to be generally useful it ought to.

Anyway, I asked about this on the FireStorm JIRA issue related to trying to make hypergrid and OpenSim teleport jumps (hops) much more uniform and to try to get them working in more contexts.

http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-10549#comment-113564

There are just so many variants here...  it could use a radical simplification and tidy up. But maybe I am missing the point and their are good reasons for all these variants, multiple colon forms, and the use of spaces in the before region names in recent HG addresses and so on that are vital.



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Re: Hypergrid Things, Jumps, SLurls, Hop URLs and Maps

aiaustin
In reply to this post by aiaustin
Looks like hop:// was introduced in Firestorm 3.2.1  (current
Firestorm is 4.4.0 OS)

http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-3459

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Re: Hypergrid Things, Jumps, SLurls, Hop URLs and Maps

Jeff Kelley
At 8:46 PM +0100 6/10/13, Ai Austin wrote:

>Looks like hop:// was introduced in Firestorm 3.2.1  (current
>Firestorm is 4.4.0 OS)
>
>http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-3459


Thanks.

It is proposed to be registered "for windows and mac webbrowsers"
(protocol helpers are not registered in the web browser but OS-wide
so that a URI clicked in *any* application is forwarded to the helper
app).

The example given:

hop://login.mygrid.org:8002/my%region/12/34/56

has a slash between host and region. This is the regular syntax for
an URI, as in

http://www.giss.tv:8000/auth.xsl

Unfortunately, this is incompatible with Imprudence and older viewers:

secondlife://hg.osgrid.org:80:Samsara/  -> works
secondlife://hg.osgrid.org:80/Samsara/  -> don't (region name is
ignored and you fall back to Welcome Station)

Other example?

secondlife://hypergrid.org:8002:Freebies/ -> ok
secondlife://hypergrid.org:8002/Freebies/ -> falls back to default region


So, even supposing I replace manually 'secondlife' with 'hop' in the
protocol helpers, that will not work with old browsers.



-- Jeff
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Re: Hypergrid Things, Jumps, SLurls, Hop URLs and Maps

Jeff Kelley
In reply to this post by Fleep Tuque
At 7:21 AM -0400 6/10/13, Fleep Tuque wrote:

> I'd also like to see the region coordinates somehow included in the address,
>  personally, since knowing that information is crucial to making a successful
>  jump and not all HG region or grid operators publish that info in
>easily found
>  places.


Knowing region coordinates is crucial to successful hypergriding and
I spend a lot of time computing or guessing them to include in my
teleporters database, so they can prevent failures, whichever the
region they are located in.

However, I would prefer the capability to obtain them from the grid
server by script. So, I would vote for a GETREGIONCOORDINATES query.

-- Jeff



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Re: Hypergrid Things, Jumps, SLurls, Hop URLs and Maps

Melanie
In reply to this post by Jeff Kelley
The entire "hop" schema is flawed. It is unable to express a SSL
(https) login URI. The schema needs to be revised urgently before
widespread adoption.

As region coordinates change, there cannot be a region coordinates
in the URL because the intention of the URL is to be persistent.
Because of this, the name is the better option here because even
whan sims are shuffled around in a grid, they will still be found by
name and a teleport can complete.

Melanie

On 10/06/2013 21:47, Jeff Kelley wrote:

> At 8:46 PM +0100 6/10/13, Ai Austin wrote:
>
>>Looks like hop:// was introduced in Firestorm 3.2.1  (current
>>Firestorm is 4.4.0 OS)
>>
>>http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-3459
>
>
> Thanks.
>
> It is proposed to be registered "for windows and mac webbrowsers"
> (protocol helpers are not registered in the web browser but OS-wide
> so that a URI clicked in *any* application is forwarded to the helper
> app).
>
> The example given:
>
> hop://login.mygrid.org:8002/my%region/12/34/56
>
> has a slash between host and region. This is the regular syntax for
> an URI, as in
>
> http://www.giss.tv:8000/auth.xsl
>
> Unfortunately, this is incompatible with Imprudence and older viewers:
>
> secondlife://hg.osgrid.org:80:Samsara/  -> works
> secondlife://hg.osgrid.org:80/Samsara/  -> don't (region name is
> ignored and you fall back to Welcome Station)
>
> Other example?
>
> secondlife://hypergrid.org:8002:Freebies/ -> ok
> secondlife://hypergrid.org:8002/Freebies/ -> falls back to default region
>
>
> So, even supposing I replace manually 'secondlife' with 'hop' in the
> protocol helpers, that will not work with old browsers.
>
>
>
> -- Jeff
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
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