MySQL on seperate server?

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MySQL on seperate server?

Ken Grunke
Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid Station post:

Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection to be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and see if it's worth pursuing.

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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

John Mieske
If you want to see how smooth it is for a 4 Region Mega-Region server on one computer and an SQL on another computer just head to my site and you can see for yourself how smooth it is..
If you want me to meet you there I can and turn on build for you and you can see how fast you can build a small house and you will see the big difference yourself on how smooth it is.. 

If your talking about cost, I have one server that is 40 for my main region and one server that cost 6 bucks for my SQL .. BOTH of these are VPS so think about that for a second. Its only costing 46 total and I can then add more regions to it with no problems for an additional 6 bucks of which I can have 4 more regions to run smoothly.. Keep in mind, NO ONE needs to tie their regions to your SQL. They would only talk to your Main region server IP ONLY. Thats only for the USER authentications AND you can have them add more regions without it bogging your SQL or regions down. I am working on the tutorial on all this.

Now some have 128 regions on one server.. but keep in mind, that is DEDICATED if you want smoothness. I am showing you numbers from VPS.. So if you dont have the bandwidth at home, goto a place that hosts a VPS OR Dedicated server and you can go from there. I personally HATE lag, so this is why I went this route.

John

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:16 PM, Ken G. <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid Station post:

Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection to be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and see if it's worth pursuing.

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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by Ken Grunke
Theres things to think about here. If your just running a small amout of regions you prob wount see mutch of a differance. On the other hand having mysql on its own dedicated server allows more ram free to the region servers, far less stress on the processor as thats handled by the other box. U have allways run my servers in that way. The down side is your adding in latency as your having togo accrost lan type connections that can actualy make things slower.  In my case we run many servers and it was the best balance possable given the amount of data ect. Another resion you may way to consider it, is your ini for all your instances will be the same connection string (makes changing things alot easyer). It also tends to add a tad bit more security as your not exposing the Mysql server to the outside world and it dosent exist on the same servers that have tobe exposed.
I found it qute flexable and stable no matter what we throw at it. The other thing is main tasks are also sep. from the server running the regions. It can now have its own set of events that dont bother mutch.
Its not hard to set it up like that but you do have to install mysql to allow remote lan connections.
Other things i found was we needed mysql replication because our data base became so large that it was an all day thing to deal with. Alot of this most wount need for along time. It took well over a year to get to a point where it all mattered.
MySql eats memory and adds to the overhead of the cpu and i/o.
If you have the equipment and plan on expanding over time, its prob a good idea to set it up like that now.
If you never plan on more than a few regions you prob dont need to set it up like that.


Ken Grunke wrote
Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's
workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid
Station post:

Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection to
be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as
Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve
performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and
see if it's worth pursuing.

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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

John Mieske
you get it :)

Also the latency IS an issue..  but keep in mind this is about the internet connection at this time. There is one other point I would like to bring up. The Cache system in the OpenSim servers ALSO accommodate for the latency. So in a sense you shouldn't have to worry about it too much. The Cache setup is where this can "buffer" your interactions with the sim. But yes that is correct that it CAN be a problem with your bandwidth ISP. But you'll always have that risk.

John

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Master_Mirage <[hidden email]> wrote:

Theres things to think about here. If your just running a small amout of
regions you prob wount see mutch of a differance. On the other hand having
mysql on its own dedicated server allows more ram free to the region
servers, far less stress on the processor as thats handled by the other box.
U have allways run my servers in that way. The down side is your adding in
latency as your having togo accrost lan type connections that can actualy
make things slower.  In my case we run many servers and it was the best
balance possable given the amount of data ect. Another resion you may way to
consider it, is your ini for all your instances will be the same connection
string (makes changing things alot easyer). It also tends to add a tad bit
more security as your not exposing the Mysql server to the outside world and
it dosent exist on the same servers that have tobe exposed.
I found it qute flexable and stable no matter what we throw at it. The other
thing is main tasks are also sep. from the server running the regions. It
can now have its own set of events that dont bother mutch.
Its not hard to set it up like that but you do have to install mysql to
allow remote lan connections.
Other things i found was we needed mysql replication because our data base
became so large that it was an all day thing to deal with. Alot of this most
wount need for along time. It took well over a year to get to a point where
it all mattered.
MySql eats memory and adds to the overhead of the cpu and i/o.
If you have the equipment and plan on expanding over time, its prob a good
idea to set it up like that now.
If you never plan on more than a few regions you prob dont need to set it up
like that.

:working:

Ken Grunke wrote:
>
> Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's
> workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid
> Station post:
>
> Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection
> to
> be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as
> Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve
> performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
> I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and
> see if it's worth pursuing.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>

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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

Master_Mirage
Ahhh my bad, i dident see you were talking about going over the internet, i was reffering to local LAN. All our servers are on the same lan not remote. Still evan at wire speeds there is a notable diff. in latency that would tend to be amplifyed over the internet for the same resions.
Opensimulator dosent really care where the mysql server is and its settings are flexable for that reasion.
In that case i would go the extra step and add in a local slave replicator for safety. It will not add the same impact that the master did. It tracks the master dataserver giving you a clone of all of it in small bursts. Should say something happen to the master the slave can now kick in as needed. For us we had other resions for doing that. I might also point out a toy called mysql proxy. It makes Failover quite painless but its also verry alpha too.
I made use of it allready and lets me quickly switch the proxy port to a slave so that downtime of the grid is minor. B4 it we would be offline all day.

John Mieske wrote
you get it :)

Also the latency IS an issue..  but keep in mind this is about the internet
connection at this time. There is one other point I would like to bring up.
The Cache system in the OpenSim servers ALSO accommodate for the latency. So
in a sense you shouldn't have to worry about it too much. The Cache setup is
where this can "buffer" your interactions with the sim. But yes that is
correct that it CAN be a problem with your bandwidth ISP. But you'll always
have that risk.

John

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Master_Mirage <mirage123@verizon.net>wrote:

>
> Theres things to think about here. If your just running a small amout of
> regions you prob wount see mutch of a differance. On the other hand having
> mysql on its own dedicated server allows more ram free to the region
> servers, far less stress on the processor as thats handled by the other
> box.
> U have allways run my servers in that way. The down side is your adding in
> latency as your having togo accrost lan type connections that can actualy
> make things slower.  In my case we run many servers and it was the best
> balance possable given the amount of data ect. Another resion you may way
> to
> consider it, is your ini for all your instances will be the same connection
> string (makes changing things alot easyer). It also tends to add a tad bit
> more security as your not exposing the Mysql server to the outside world
> and
> it dosent exist on the same servers that have tobe exposed.
> I found it qute flexable and stable no matter what we throw at it. The
> other
> thing is main tasks are also sep. from the server running the regions. It
> can now have its own set of events that dont bother mutch.
> Its not hard to set it up like that but you do have to install mysql to
> allow remote lan connections.
> Other things i found was we needed mysql replication because our data base
> became so large that it was an all day thing to deal with. Alot of this
> most
> wount need for along time. It took well over a year to get to a point where
> it all mattered.
> MySql eats memory and adds to the overhead of the cpu and i/o.
> If you have the equipment and plan on expanding over time, its prob a good
> idea to set it up like that now.
> If you never plan on more than a few regions you prob dont need to set it
> up
> like that.
>
> :working:
>
> Ken Grunke wrote:
> >
> > Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on
> it's
> > workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid
> > Station post:
> >
> > Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection
> > to
> > be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as
> > Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve
> > performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
> > I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out
> and
> > see if it's worth pursuing.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/MySQL-on-seperate-server-tp4575740p4575964.html
> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>



--
John Mieske / Winword Exonar
http://johnmieske.org
Space Grid Station

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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

John Mieske
Yea and if you mirror with Raid your Grid is now safe from failures. Its actually pretty slick.. :)

John

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 2:34 PM, Master_Mirage <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ahhh my bad, i dident see you were talking about going over the internet, i
was reffering to local LAN. All our servers are on the same lan not remote.
Still evan at wire speeds there is a notable diff. in latency that would
tend to be amplifyed over the internet for the same resions.
Opensimulator dosent really care where the mysql server is and its settings
are flexable for that reasion.
In that case i would go the extra step and add in a local slave replicator
for safety. It will not add the same impact that the master did. It tracks
the master dataserver giving you a clone of all of it in small bursts.
Should say something happen to the master the slave can now kick in as
needed. For us we had other resions for doing that. I might also point out a
toy called mysql proxy. It makes Failover quite painless but its also verry
alpha too.
I made use of it allready and lets me quickly switch the proxy port to a
slave so that downtime of the grid is minor. B4 it we would be offline all
day.


John Mieske wrote:
>
> you get it :)
>
> Also the latency IS an issue..  but keep in mind this is about the
> internet
> connection at this time. There is one other point I would like to bring
> up.
> The Cache system in the OpenSim servers ALSO accommodate for the latency.
> So
> in a sense you shouldn't have to worry about it too much. The Cache setup
> is
> where this can "buffer" your interactions with the sim. But yes that is
> correct that it CAN be a problem with your bandwidth ISP. But you'll
> always
> have that risk.
>
> John
>
> On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:58 PM, Master_Mirage
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>>
>> Theres things to think about here. If your just running a small amout of
>> regions you prob wount see mutch of a differance. On the other hand
>> having
>> mysql on its own dedicated server allows more ram free to the region
>> servers, far less stress on the processor as thats handled by the other
>> box.
>> U have allways run my servers in that way. The down side is your adding
>> in
>> latency as your having togo accrost lan type connections that can actualy
>> make things slower.  In my case we run many servers and it was the best
>> balance possable given the amount of data ect. Another resion you may way
>> to
>> consider it, is your ini for all your instances will be the same
>> connection
>> string (makes changing things alot easyer). It also tends to add a tad
>> bit
>> more security as your not exposing the Mysql server to the outside world
>> and
>> it dosent exist on the same servers that have tobe exposed.
>> I found it qute flexable and stable no matter what we throw at it. The
>> other
>> thing is main tasks are also sep. from the server running the regions. It
>> can now have its own set of events that dont bother mutch.
>> Its not hard to set it up like that but you do have to install mysql to
>> allow remote lan connections.
>> Other things i found was we needed mysql replication because our data
>> base
>> became so large that it was an all day thing to deal with. Alot of this
>> most
>> wount need for along time. It took well over a year to get to a point
>> where
>> it all mattered.
>> MySql eats memory and adds to the overhead of the cpu and i/o.
>> If you have the equipment and plan on expanding over time, its prob a
>> good
>> idea to set it up like that now.
>> If you never plan on more than a few regions you prob dont need to set it
>> up
>> like that.
>>
>> :working:
>>
>> Ken Grunke wrote:
>> >
>> > Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on
>> it's
>> > workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space
>> Grid
>> > Station post:
>> >
>> > Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC
>> connection
>> > to
>> > be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as
>> > Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve
>> > performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
>> > I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out
>> and
>> > see if it's worth pursuing.
>> >
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Opensim-users mailing list
>> > [hidden email]
>> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> View this message in context:
>> http://n2.nabble.com/MySQL-on-seperate-server-tp4575740p4575964.html
>> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>
>
>
>
> --
> John Mieske / Winword Exonar
> http://johnmieske.org
> Space Grid Station
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>

--
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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

Darren Williams-2

Ken G asked:

 

Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid Station post:

Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection to be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and see if it's worth pursuing.

 

Ken,

 

You shouldn’t receive any benefit at all doing the above. In fact it will probably make things worse.

 

If I’m reading this right then the region server which you have running locally would then be pulling/pushing the data from across the net on the mysql server, back to your machine. It would probably run worse.

 

Daz


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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

John Mieske
I have to agree with Darren here. If your doing this at home, you might as well have both on the same computer. Your internet in general will dictate what you can do. So if your running this at home, hang up the idea of two computer region serving because no one will see a difference when they already bogg down from a slow internet connection to your region. I have seen some Regions who run them at home with the best of intentions only shut down days later because they realize their internet only allowed 2 avatars to run smoothly. When they got to 3, their sim started to crash. It is all about your upload speed. However, if you got a FAT PIPE ( not to smoke hahaha ) then yea you definitely might want to try the way I suggested. Again everything in OpenSim is based on HOW you run your Grid / Regions. Nothing is 100% set one way. I only offered a suggestion to those who could use this benefit. And there are already some servers that has been setup this way and they are smooth.

John

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Darren Williams <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ken G asked:

 

Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid Station post:

Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection to be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and see if it's worth pursuing.

 

Ken,

 

You shouldn’t receive any benefit at all doing the above. In fact it will probably make things worse.

 

If I’m reading this right then the region server which you have running locally would then be pulling/pushing the data from across the net on the mysql server, back to your machine. It would probably run worse.

 

Daz


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http://johnmieske.org
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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

Ken Grunke
Alright, thanks Daz for answering my question and thanks to John and Master_Mirage for the input. I am just a hobby user of opensim, connected to OSGrid, hoping that maybe there was a way to improve my mediocre connection :)

Ken aka Key


On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:00 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to agree with Darren here. If your doing this at home, you might as well have both on the same computer. Your internet in general will dictate what you can do. So if your running this at home, hang up the idea of two computer region serving because no one will see a difference when they already bogg down from a slow internet connection to your region. I have seen some Regions who run them at home with the best of intentions only shut down days later because they realize their internet only allowed 2 avatars to run smoothly. When they got to 3, their sim started to crash. It is all about your upload speed. However, if you got a FAT PIPE ( not to smoke hahaha ) then yea you definitely might want to try the way I suggested. Again everything in OpenSim is based on HOW you run your Grid / Regions. Nothing is 100% set one way. I only offered a suggestion to those who could use this benefit. And there are already some servers that has been setup this way and they are smooth.

John

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Darren Williams <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ken G asked:

 

Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid Station post:

Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection to be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and see if it's worth pursuing.

 

Ken,

 

You shouldn’t receive any benefit at all doing the above. In fact it will probably make things worse.

 

If I’m reading this right then the region server which you have running locally would then be pulling/pushing the data from across the net on the mysql server, back to your machine. It would probably run worse.

 

Daz


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Space Grid Station

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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

Steve-28
So out of interest, what are the upload limits per avatar for example. I have just shy of 1 Mb upload speed, and have happily accommodated 8 Avatars (after one in particular who was throwing up masses of errors left). How far could I, in theory, push it?

Steve

On 15/02/2010 11:00 PM, Ken G. wrote:
Alright, thanks Daz for answering my question and thanks to John and Master_Mirage for the input. I am just a hobby user of opensim, connected to OSGrid, hoping that maybe there was a way to improve my mediocre connection :)

Ken aka Key


On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:00 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to agree with Darren here. If your doing this at home, you might as well have both on the same computer. Your internet in general will dictate what you can do. So if your running this at home, hang up the idea of two computer region serving because no one will see a difference when they already bogg down from a slow internet connection to your region. I have seen some Regions who run them at home with the best of intentions only shut down days later because they realize their internet only allowed 2 avatars to run smoothly. When they got to 3, their sim started to crash. It is all about your upload speed. However, if you got a FAT PIPE ( not to smoke hahaha ) then yea you definitely might want to try the way I suggested. Again everything in OpenSim is based on HOW you run your Grid / Regions. Nothing is 100% set one way. I only offered a suggestion to those who could use this benefit. And there are already some servers that has been setup this way and they are smooth.

John

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Darren Williams <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ken G asked:

 

Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid Station post:

Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection to be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and see if it's worth pursuing.

 

Ken,

 

You shouldn’t receive any benefit at all doing the above. In fact it will probably make things worse.

 

If I’m reading this right then the region server which you have running locally would then be pulling/pushing the data from across the net on the mysql server, back to your machine. It would probably run worse.

 

Daz


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http://johnmieske.org
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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

John Mieske
here is an example of what happened to me on a few Grids I have tested. Per AV I am uploading / downloading roughly 40KBytes a second. Not kBits. That is full load with everything going on. So I am giving the most I have seen in this case. That is roughly 320 KBit upload and download just for one avatar. So in theory, you should be able to push less then 40K IF your avatars are not really doing all of what they want them to. Example : Voice.

So with a 1 Meg upload, your looking at around 3 Avatars smoothly. If your going to go with 2 Meg Upload which some of us have, then your could go to about 7 Avatars smoothly. Again, this is all dependant on what your USERS are doing. If all are building and in Voice all at once, then 1 Meg = 3 Avatars smoothly.

Keep in mind, this is a test I did myself on 5 Grids I have tested. Each with different ISPs. So if your going to run a Grid you also have to account that the region that ties into your main region ALSO has to accomodate for the extra communication between each region that is not on the same computer / ISP. AND they are constantly 24 / 7 communicating. So if you have a bandwidth limit, you could be in trouble. At a Previous version of Sim world, we had 500 Megabytes transfer for about a weeks worth of time. And that is with only 8 regions and VERY little activity. The limit ?  1 Terribyte. So in one week, we ate up half our bandwidth limit. ( Thats all the HOST allowed at the time )

Bottom line, you MUST do the math to see if this is even possible to keep running before spending a lot of money.

John

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Steve <[hidden email]> wrote:
So out of interest, what are the upload limits per avatar for example. I have just shy of 1 Mb upload speed, and have happily accommodated 8 Avatars (after one in particular who was throwing up masses of errors left). How far could I, in theory, push it?

Steve


On 15/02/2010 11:00 PM, Ken G. wrote:
Alright, thanks Daz for answering my question and thanks to John and Master_Mirage for the input. I am just a hobby user of opensim, connected to OSGrid, hoping that maybe there was a way to improve my mediocre connection :)

Ken aka Key


On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:00 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to agree with Darren here. If your doing this at home, you might as well have both on the same computer. Your internet in general will dictate what you can do. So if your running this at home, hang up the idea of two computer region serving because no one will see a difference when they already bogg down from a slow internet connection to your region. I have seen some Regions who run them at home with the best of intentions only shut down days later because they realize their internet only allowed 2 avatars to run smoothly. When they got to 3, their sim started to crash. It is all about your upload speed. However, if you got a FAT PIPE ( not to smoke hahaha ) then yea you definitely might want to try the way I suggested. Again everything in OpenSim is based on HOW you run your Grid / Regions. Nothing is 100% set one way. I only offered a suggestion to those who could use this benefit. And there are already some servers that has been setup this way and they are smooth.

John

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Darren Williams <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ken G asked:

 

Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid Station post:

Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection to be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and see if it's worth pursuing.

 

Ken,

 

You shouldn’t receive any benefit at all doing the above. In fact it will probably make things worse.

 

If I’m reading this right then the region server which you have running locally would then be pulling/pushing the data from across the net on the mysql server, back to your machine. It would probably run worse.

 

Daz


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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

John Mieske
Oh I might add, that is 20 - 40KBytes Upload one way and 20 - 80 KB download one way. I thought I would meantion that.
John

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:14 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
here is an example of what happened to me on a few Grids I have tested. Per AV I am uploading / downloading roughly 40KBytes a second. Not kBits. That is full load with everything going on. So I am giving the most I have seen in this case. That is roughly 320 KBit upload and download just for one avatar. So in theory, you should be able to push less then 40K IF your avatars are not really doing all of what they want them to. Example : Voice.

So with a 1 Meg upload, your looking at around 3 Avatars smoothly. If your going to go with 2 Meg Upload which some of us have, then your could go to about 7 Avatars smoothly. Again, this is all dependant on what your USERS are doing. If all are building and in Voice all at once, then 1 Meg = 3 Avatars smoothly.

Keep in mind, this is a test I did myself on 5 Grids I have tested. Each with different ISPs. So if your going to run a Grid you also have to account that the region that ties into your main region ALSO has to accomodate for the extra communication between each region that is not on the same computer / ISP. AND they are constantly 24 / 7 communicating. So if you have a bandwidth limit, you could be in trouble. At a Previous version of Sim world, we had 500 Megabytes transfer for about a weeks worth of time. And that is with only 8 regions and VERY little activity. The limit ?  1 Terribyte. So in one week, we ate up half our bandwidth limit. ( Thats all the HOST allowed at the time )

Bottom line, you MUST do the math to see if this is even possible to keep running before spending a lot of money.

John


On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Steve <[hidden email]> wrote:
So out of interest, what are the upload limits per avatar for example. I have just shy of 1 Mb upload speed, and have happily accommodated 8 Avatars (after one in particular who was throwing up masses of errors left). How far could I, in theory, push it?

Steve


On 15/02/2010 11:00 PM, Ken G. wrote:
Alright, thanks Daz for answering my question and thanks to John and Master_Mirage for the input. I am just a hobby user of opensim, connected to OSGrid, hoping that maybe there was a way to improve my mediocre connection :)

Ken aka Key


On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:00 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to agree with Darren here. If your doing this at home, you might as well have both on the same computer. Your internet in general will dictate what you can do. So if your running this at home, hang up the idea of two computer region serving because no one will see a difference when they already bogg down from a slow internet connection to your region. I have seen some Regions who run them at home with the best of intentions only shut down days later because they realize their internet only allowed 2 avatars to run smoothly. When they got to 3, their sim started to crash. It is all about your upload speed. However, if you got a FAT PIPE ( not to smoke hahaha ) then yea you definitely might want to try the way I suggested. Again everything in OpenSim is based on HOW you run your Grid / Regions. Nothing is 100% set one way. I only offered a suggestion to those who could use this benefit. And there are already some servers that has been setup this way and they are smooth.

John

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Darren Williams <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ken G asked:

 

Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid Station post:

Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection to be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and see if it's worth pursuing.

 

Ken,

 

You shouldn’t receive any benefit at all doing the above. In fact it will probably make things worse.

 

If I’m reading this right then the region server which you have running locally would then be pulling/pushing the data from across the net on the mysql server, back to your machine. It would probably run worse.

 

Daz


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http://johnmieske.org
Space Grid Station

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http://johnmieske.org
Space Grid Station



--
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http://johnmieske.org
Space Grid Station

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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

Steve-28
Thank you, although this doesn't tie in to my bandwidth usage reports :/

I have 60Gig peak, 240 Gig off peak allowance with my provider download. No limit upload. I have had the sim up and running for a week 24/7 (one region  only - and 24/7 apart from a OpenSimulator version upgrade and the odd restart), using my net connection as normal on my main PC.

My usage for 1 - 15 Feb is 11.78 Gig D/L (which includes 3 Gig HD vid from BBC iPlayer) and 2 Gig upload.

I was interested in the OP question because I have a SQL server sat on my web hosts servers doing nada, but it looks like I will gain neither performance nor speed by trying to use it, nor will I save any bandwidth.

This is a real learning experience.

Steve

On 16/02/2010 8:15 PM, John Mieske wrote:
Oh I might add, that is 20 - 40KBytes Upload one way and 20 - 80 KB download one way. I thought I would meantion that.
John

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:14 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
here is an example of what happened to me on a few Grids I have tested. Per AV I am uploading / downloading roughly 40KBytes a second. Not kBits. That is full load with everything going on. So I am giving the most I have seen in this case. That is roughly 320 KBit upload and download just for one avatar. So in theory, you should be able to push less then 40K IF your avatars are not really doing all of what they want them to. Example : Voice.

So with a 1 Meg upload, your looking at around 3 Avatars smoothly. If your going to go with 2 Meg Upload which some of us have, then your could go to about 7 Avatars smoothly. Again, this is all dependant on what your USERS are doing. If all are building and in Voice all at once, then 1 Meg = 3 Avatars smoothly.

Keep in mind, this is a test I did myself on 5 Grids I have tested. Each with different ISPs. So if your going to run a Grid you also have to account that the region that ties into your main region ALSO has to accomodate for the extra communication between each region that is not on the same computer / ISP. AND they are constantly 24 / 7 communicating. So if you have a bandwidth limit, you could be in trouble. At a Previous version of Sim world, we had 500 Megabytes transfer for about a weeks worth of time. And that is with only 8 regions and VERY little activity. The limit ?  1 Terribyte. So in one week, we ate up half our bandwidth limit. ( Thats all the HOST allowed at the time )

Bottom line, you MUST do the math to see if this is even possible to keep running before spending a lot of money.

John


On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Steve <[hidden email]> wrote:
So out of interest, what are the upload limits per avatar for example. I have just shy of 1 Mb upload speed, and have happily accommodated 8 Avatars (after one in particular who was throwing up masses of errors left). How far could I, in theory, push it?

Steve


On 15/02/2010 11:00 PM, Ken G. wrote:
Alright, thanks Daz for answering my question and thanks to John and Master_Mirage for the input. I am just a hobby user of opensim, connected to OSGrid, hoping that maybe there was a way to improve my mediocre connection :)

Ken aka Key


On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:00 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to agree with Darren here. If your doing this at home, you might as well have both on the same computer. Your internet in general will dictate what you can do. So if your running this at home, hang up the idea of two computer region serving because no one will see a difference when they already bogg down from a slow internet connection to your region. I have seen some Regions who run them at home with the best of intentions only shut down days later because they realize their internet only allowed 2 avatars to run smoothly. When they got to 3, their sim started to crash. It is all about your upload speed. However, if you got a FAT PIPE ( not to smoke hahaha ) then yea you definitely might want to try the way I suggested. Again everything in OpenSim is based on HOW you run your Grid / Regions. Nothing is 100% set one way. I only offered a suggestion to those who could use this benefit. And there are already some servers that has been setup this way and they are smooth.

John

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Darren Williams <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ken G asked:

 

Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid Station post:

Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection to be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and see if it's worth pursuing.

 

Ken,

 

You shouldn’t receive any benefit at all doing the above. In fact it will probably make things worse.

 

If I’m reading this right then the region server which you have running locally would then be pulling/pushing the data from across the net on the mysql server, back to your machine. It would probably run worse.

 

Daz


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http://johnmieske.org
Space Grid Station

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http://johnmieske.org
Space Grid Station



--
John Mieske / Winword Exonar
http://johnmieske.org
Space Grid Station
_______________________________________________ Opensim-users mailing list [hidden email] https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

Impalah Shenzhou
I arrive late, as usual :-)

When a region has around 12000 primitives, with a db server on the same machine you will have hell on earth or something like that.

Boot up time is around 10 minutes and is impossible to do anything but using zoom. Impossible to move.

I have tested this with 3 machines (4Gb ram, 500Gb hd RAID, Intel Core Duo 1,73, Intel Core duo 2,3 and amd64) running windows XP, Vista and Windows 7-64 bits.

I was using grid mode (grid server on separate computer... no ROBUST or UGAIM, it uses a PHP ugaim system).

Separating Mysql to another machine on the same local network (100 Mbps nc) I could move, build, and even another avatar could enter.

Exporting db and running it on separate server with Linux (ubuntu server 9.04) I could fill the region with 5000 more prims and 2 avatars could work smooth.

Running opensim on Linux (amd64, 4gb ram, ubuntu server 9.04 64 bits) and db on separate linux server 2 avatars could work smoothly and filling the region with 25000 prims (no simple prims, but different sizes, texturized and scripted).

Anyway, that were my "home" experiences... My conclusion: separate db, don't use windows.

Greetings



2010/2/16 Steve <[hidden email]>
Thank you, although this doesn't tie in to my bandwidth usage reports :/

I have 60Gig peak, 240 Gig off peak allowance with my provider download. No limit upload. I have had the sim up and running for a week 24/7 (one region  only - and 24/7 apart from a OpenSimulator version upgrade and the odd restart), using my net connection as normal on my main PC.

My usage for 1 - 15 Feb is 11.78 Gig D/L (which includes 3 Gig HD vid from BBC iPlayer) and 2 Gig upload.

I was interested in the OP question because I have a SQL server sat on my web hosts servers doing nada, but it looks like I will gain neither performance nor speed by trying to use it, nor will I save any bandwidth.

This is a real learning experience.

Steve


On 16/02/2010 8:15 PM, John Mieske wrote:
Oh I might add, that is 20 - 40KBytes Upload one way and 20 - 80 KB download one way. I thought I would meantion that.
John

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:14 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
here is an example of what happened to me on a few Grids I have tested. Per AV I am uploading / downloading roughly 40KBytes a second. Not kBits. That is full load with everything going on. So I am giving the most I have seen in this case. That is roughly 320 KBit upload and download just for one avatar. So in theory, you should be able to push less then 40K IF your avatars are not really doing all of what they want them to. Example : Voice.

So with a 1 Meg upload, your looking at around 3 Avatars smoothly. If your going to go with 2 Meg Upload which some of us have, then your could go to about 7 Avatars smoothly. Again, this is all dependant on what your USERS are doing. If all are building and in Voice all at once, then 1 Meg = 3 Avatars smoothly.

Keep in mind, this is a test I did myself on 5 Grids I have tested. Each with different ISPs. So if your going to run a Grid you also have to account that the region that ties into your main region ALSO has to accomodate for the extra communication between each region that is not on the same computer / ISP. AND they are constantly 24 / 7 communicating. So if you have a bandwidth limit, you could be in trouble. At a Previous version of Sim world, we had 500 Megabytes transfer for about a weeks worth of time. And that is with only 8 regions and VERY little activity. The limit ?  1 Terribyte. So in one week, we ate up half our bandwidth limit. ( Thats all the HOST allowed at the time )

Bottom line, you MUST do the math to see if this is even possible to keep running before spending a lot of money.

John


On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Steve <[hidden email]> wrote:
So out of interest, what are the upload limits per avatar for example. I have just shy of 1 Mb upload speed, and have happily accommodated 8 Avatars (after one in particular who was throwing up masses of errors left). How far could I, in theory, push it?

Steve


On 15/02/2010 11:00 PM, Ken G. wrote:
Alright, thanks Daz for answering my question and thanks to John and Master_Mirage for the input. I am just a hobby user of opensim, connected to OSGrid, hoping that maybe there was a way to improve my mediocre connection :)

Ken aka Key


On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:00 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to agree with Darren here. If your doing this at home, you might as well have both on the same computer. Your internet in general will dictate what you can do. So if your running this at home, hang up the idea of two computer region serving because no one will see a difference when they already bogg down from a slow internet connection to your region. I have seen some Regions who run them at home with the best of intentions only shut down days later because they realize their internet only allowed 2 avatars to run smoothly. When they got to 3, their sim started to crash. It is all about your upload speed. However, if you got a FAT PIPE ( not to smoke hahaha ) then yea you definitely might want to try the way I suggested. Again everything in OpenSim is based on HOW you run your Grid / Regions. Nothing is 100% set one way. I only offered a suggestion to those who could use this benefit. And there are already some servers that has been setup this way and they are smooth.

John

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Darren Williams <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ken G asked:

 

Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid Station post:

Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection to be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and see if it's worth pursuing.

 

Ken,

 

You shouldn’t receive any benefit at all doing the above. In fact it will probably make things worse.

 

If I’m reading this right then the region server which you have running locally would then be pulling/pushing the data from across the net on the mysql server, back to your machine. It would probably run worse.

 

Daz


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http://johnmieske.org
Space Grid Station

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http://johnmieske.org
Space Grid Station



--
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http://johnmieske.org
Space Grid Station
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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

Zonja Capalini
I'm using a Quad Core Q6600 @ 2.40 GHz with 3 GB of RAM and two 372 GB HDs
for Condensation Land. Condensation runs two Opensim instances (8 and 3 sims respectively)
in a serverless grid configuration AND the MySQL database. I have the OS in one HD and MySQL
and Opensim in the other HD, and my startup times are < 2 mins even if I have
sims with > 10000 prims. When I log in with 512 m draw distance, I experience some lag
for 15 seconds or so (on a 10 Mb ADSL line) while everything is downloaded,
then no lag. Tried it with four avatars, no lag.

Defragmenting the HDs every so often does *a lot* to improve performance.

ymmv

  /Zonja

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Impalah Shenzhou <[hidden email]> wrote:
I arrive late, as usual :-)

When a region has around 12000 primitives, with a db server on the same machine you will have hell on earth or something like that.

Boot up time is around 10 minutes and is impossible to do anything but using zoom. Impossible to move.

I have tested this with 3 machines (4Gb ram, 500Gb hd RAID, Intel Core Duo 1,73, Intel Core duo 2,3 and amd64) running windows XP, Vista and Windows 7-64 bits.

I was using grid mode (grid server on separate computer... no ROBUST or UGAIM, it uses a PHP ugaim system).

Separating Mysql to another machine on the same local network (100 Mbps nc) I could move, build, and even another avatar could enter.

Exporting db and running it on separate server with Linux (ubuntu server 9.04) I could fill the region with 5000 more prims and 2 avatars could work smooth.

Running opensim on Linux (amd64, 4gb ram, ubuntu server 9.04 64 bits) and db on separate linux server 2 avatars could work smoothly and filling the region with 25000 prims (no simple prims, but different sizes, texturized and scripted).

Anyway, that were my "home" experiences... My conclusion: separate db, don't use windows.

Greetings



2010/2/16 Steve <[hidden email]>

Thank you, although this doesn't tie in to my bandwidth usage reports :/

I have 60Gig peak, 240 Gig off peak allowance with my provider download. No limit upload. I have had the sim up and running for a week 24/7 (one region  only - and 24/7 apart from a OpenSimulator version upgrade and the odd restart), using my net connection as normal on my main PC.

My usage for 1 - 15 Feb is 11.78 Gig D/L (which includes 3 Gig HD vid from BBC iPlayer) and 2 Gig upload.

I was interested in the OP question because I have a SQL server sat on my web hosts servers doing nada, but it looks like I will gain neither performance nor speed by trying to use it, nor will I save any bandwidth.

This is a real learning experience.

Steve


On 16/02/2010 8:15 PM, John Mieske wrote:
Oh I might add, that is 20 - 40KBytes Upload one way and 20 - 80 KB download one way. I thought I would meantion that.
John

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:14 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
here is an example of what happened to me on a few Grids I have tested. Per AV I am uploading / downloading roughly 40KBytes a second. Not kBits. That is full load with everything going on. So I am giving the most I have seen in this case. That is roughly 320 KBit upload and download just for one avatar. So in theory, you should be able to push less then 40K IF your avatars are not really doing all of what they want them to. Example : Voice.

So with a 1 Meg upload, your looking at around 3 Avatars smoothly. If your going to go with 2 Meg Upload which some of us have, then your could go to about 7 Avatars smoothly. Again, this is all dependant on what your USERS are doing. If all are building and in Voice all at once, then 1 Meg = 3 Avatars smoothly.

Keep in mind, this is a test I did myself on 5 Grids I have tested. Each with different ISPs. So if your going to run a Grid you also have to account that the region that ties into your main region ALSO has to accomodate for the extra communication between each region that is not on the same computer / ISP. AND they are constantly 24 / 7 communicating. So if you have a bandwidth limit, you could be in trouble. At a Previous version of Sim world, we had 500 Megabytes transfer for about a weeks worth of time. And that is with only 8 regions and VERY little activity. The limit ?  1 Terribyte. So in one week, we ate up half our bandwidth limit. ( Thats all the HOST allowed at the time )

Bottom line, you MUST do the math to see if this is even possible to keep running before spending a lot of money.

John


On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Steve <[hidden email]> wrote:
So out of interest, what are the upload limits per avatar for example. I have just shy of 1 Mb upload speed, and have happily accommodated 8 Avatars (after one in particular who was throwing up masses of errors left). How far could I, in theory, push it?

Steve


On 15/02/2010 11:00 PM, Ken G. wrote:
Alright, thanks Daz for answering my question and thanks to John and Master_Mirage for the input. I am just a hobby user of opensim, connected to OSGrid, hoping that maybe there was a way to improve my mediocre connection :)

Ken aka Key


On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:00 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to agree with Darren here. If your doing this at home, you might as well have both on the same computer. Your internet in general will dictate what you can do. So if your running this at home, hang up the idea of two computer region serving because no one will see a difference when they already bogg down from a slow internet connection to your region. I have seen some Regions who run them at home with the best of intentions only shut down days later because they realize their internet only allowed 2 avatars to run smoothly. When they got to 3, their sim started to crash. It is all about your upload speed. However, if you got a FAT PIPE ( not to smoke hahaha ) then yea you definitely might want to try the way I suggested. Again everything in OpenSim is based on HOW you run your Grid / Regions. Nothing is 100% set one way. I only offered a suggestion to those who could use this benefit. And there are already some servers that has been setup this way and they are smooth.

John

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Darren Williams <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ken G asked:

 

Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid Station post:

Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection to be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and see if it's worth pursuing.

 

Ken,

 

You shouldn’t receive any benefit at all doing the above. In fact it will probably make things worse.

 

If I’m reading this right then the region server which you have running locally would then be pulling/pushing the data from across the net on the mysql server, back to your machine. It would probably run worse.

 

Daz


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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

Impalah Shenzhou
Then the problem are in my computers :-P or in the tests we both did.

I got better performance separating db from opensim servers, but I don't know if prim size/modifications/colors/texturing/scripting have some influence in the results we both got.

Any standard test for performance?

2010/2/18 Zonja Capalini <[hidden email]>
I'm using a Quad Core Q6600 @ 2.40 GHz with 3 GB of RAM and two 372 GB HDs
for Condensation Land. Condensation runs two Opensim instances (8 and 3 sims respectively)
in a serverless grid configuration AND the MySQL database. I have the OS in one HD and MySQL
and Opensim in the other HD, and my startup times are < 2 mins even if I have
sims with > 10000 prims. When I log in with 512 m draw distance, I experience some lag
for 15 seconds or so (on a 10 Mb ADSL line) while everything is downloaded,
then no lag. Tried it with four avatars, no lag.

Defragmenting the HDs every so often does *a lot* to improve performance.

ymmv

  /Zonja

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:26 AM, Impalah Shenzhou <[hidden email]> wrote:
I arrive late, as usual :-)

When a region has around 12000 primitives, with a db server on the same machine you will have hell on earth or something like that.

Boot up time is around 10 minutes and is impossible to do anything but using zoom. Impossible to move.

I have tested this with 3 machines (4Gb ram, 500Gb hd RAID, Intel Core Duo 1,73, Intel Core duo 2,3 and amd64) running windows XP, Vista and Windows 7-64 bits.

I was using grid mode (grid server on separate computer... no ROBUST or UGAIM, it uses a PHP ugaim system).

Separating Mysql to another machine on the same local network (100 Mbps nc) I could move, build, and even another avatar could enter.

Exporting db and running it on separate server with Linux (ubuntu server 9.04) I could fill the region with 5000 more prims and 2 avatars could work smooth.

Running opensim on Linux (amd64, 4gb ram, ubuntu server 9.04 64 bits) and db on separate linux server 2 avatars could work smoothly and filling the region with 25000 prims (no simple prims, but different sizes, texturized and scripted).

Anyway, that were my "home" experiences... My conclusion: separate db, don't use windows.

Greetings



2010/2/16 Steve <[hidden email]>

Thank you, although this doesn't tie in to my bandwidth usage reports :/

I have 60Gig peak, 240 Gig off peak allowance with my provider download. No limit upload. I have had the sim up and running for a week 24/7 (one region  only - and 24/7 apart from a OpenSimulator version upgrade and the odd restart), using my net connection as normal on my main PC.

My usage for 1 - 15 Feb is 11.78 Gig D/L (which includes 3 Gig HD vid from BBC iPlayer) and 2 Gig upload.

I was interested in the OP question because I have a SQL server sat on my web hosts servers doing nada, but it looks like I will gain neither performance nor speed by trying to use it, nor will I save any bandwidth.

This is a real learning experience.

Steve


On 16/02/2010 8:15 PM, John Mieske wrote:
Oh I might add, that is 20 - 40KBytes Upload one way and 20 - 80 KB download one way. I thought I would meantion that.
John

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:14 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
here is an example of what happened to me on a few Grids I have tested. Per AV I am uploading / downloading roughly 40KBytes a second. Not kBits. That is full load with everything going on. So I am giving the most I have seen in this case. That is roughly 320 KBit upload and download just for one avatar. So in theory, you should be able to push less then 40K IF your avatars are not really doing all of what they want them to. Example : Voice.

So with a 1 Meg upload, your looking at around 3 Avatars smoothly. If your going to go with 2 Meg Upload which some of us have, then your could go to about 7 Avatars smoothly. Again, this is all dependant on what your USERS are doing. If all are building and in Voice all at once, then 1 Meg = 3 Avatars smoothly.

Keep in mind, this is a test I did myself on 5 Grids I have tested. Each with different ISPs. So if your going to run a Grid you also have to account that the region that ties into your main region ALSO has to accomodate for the extra communication between each region that is not on the same computer / ISP. AND they are constantly 24 / 7 communicating. So if you have a bandwidth limit, you could be in trouble. At a Previous version of Sim world, we had 500 Megabytes transfer for about a weeks worth of time. And that is with only 8 regions and VERY little activity. The limit ?  1 Terribyte. So in one week, we ate up half our bandwidth limit. ( Thats all the HOST allowed at the time )

Bottom line, you MUST do the math to see if this is even possible to keep running before spending a lot of money.

John


On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Steve <[hidden email]> wrote:
So out of interest, what are the upload limits per avatar for example. I have just shy of 1 Mb upload speed, and have happily accommodated 8 Avatars (after one in particular who was throwing up masses of errors left). How far could I, in theory, push it?

Steve


On 15/02/2010 11:00 PM, Ken G. wrote:
Alright, thanks Daz for answering my question and thanks to John and Master_Mirage for the input. I am just a hobby user of opensim, connected to OSGrid, hoping that maybe there was a way to improve my mediocre connection :)

Ken aka Key


On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:00 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to agree with Darren here. If your doing this at home, you might as well have both on the same computer. Your internet in general will dictate what you can do. So if your running this at home, hang up the idea of two computer region serving because no one will see a difference when they already bogg down from a slow internet connection to your region. I have seen some Regions who run them at home with the best of intentions only shut down days later because they realize their internet only allowed 2 avatars to run smoothly. When they got to 3, their sim started to crash. It is all about your upload speed. However, if you got a FAT PIPE ( not to smoke hahaha ) then yea you definitely might want to try the way I suggested. Again everything in OpenSim is based on HOW you run your Grid / Regions. Nothing is 100% set one way. I only offered a suggestion to those who could use this benefit. And there are already some servers that has been setup this way and they are smooth.

John

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Darren Williams <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ken G asked:

 

Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid Station post:

Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection to be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and see if it's worth pursuing.

 

Ken,

 

You shouldn’t receive any benefit at all doing the above. In fact it will probably make things worse.

 

If I’m reading this right then the region server which you have running locally would then be pulling/pushing the data from across the net on the mysql server, back to your machine. It would probably run worse.

 

Daz


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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

Karen_Palen
Zonja did not specify, but I am guessing that he is using Windows since he needed to de-fragment his HD. The Linux ext3/4 file system takes care of that automatically in the journalling.

Inevitably there will be many differences between a Windows based system and a Linux based one, if only because the two OSes are so different in their kernals.

If you haven't already tried it, you should ge the best efficiency with one of the Linux server distros.

I have played with Ubuntu server and it is much "leaner" than the desktop version. The Kernel is optimised for database type applications rather than giving a responsive GUI.

I would assume that the other Linux server versions are similar, but I really don't know enough about them to compare. Any of them should come with all of the basic tools (LAMP, MySQL support etc) so it should boil down to which one fits your needs the best.

There are hundreds of "standard" tests for performance, but as far as I know there is nothing yet that is oriented to OpenSim. One of the MySQL benchmarks should give you some good insight though.

Karen

--- On Thu, 2/18/10, Impalah Shenzhou <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Impalah Shenzhou <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] MySQL on seperate server?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 5:02 AM
> Then the problem are in my computers
> :-P or in the tests we both did.
>
> I got better performance separating db from
> opensim servers, but I don't know if prim
> size/modifications/colors/texturing/scripting have some
> influence in the results we both got.
>
> Any standard test for performance?
> 2010/2/18 Zonja Capalini
> <[hidden email]>
>
> I'm
> using a Quad Core Q6600 @ 2.40 GHz with 3 GB of RAM and two
> 372 GB HDsfor Condensation Land. Condensation runs two
> Opensim instances (8 and 3 sims respectively)
> in a serverless grid configuration AND the MySQL
> database. I have the OS in one HD and MySQL
> and Opensim in the other HD, and my startup times are
> < 2 mins even if I havesims with > 10000
> prims. When I log in with 512 m draw distance, I experience
> some lagfor 15 seconds or so (on a 10 Mb ADSL
> line) while everything is downloaded,
>
> then no lag. Tried it with four avatars, no
> lag.
> Defragmenting the HDs every so often does *a
> lot* to improve performance.
> ymmv
>
>   /Zonja
>
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:26 AM,
> Impalah Shenzhou <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>
> I arrive late, as usual :-)
>
> When a region has around 12000 primitives, with
> a db server on the same machine you will have hell on earth
> or something like that.
> Boot up time is around 10 minutes and is
> impossible to do anything but using zoom. Impossible to
> move.
>
>
>
> I have tested this with 3 machines (4Gb ram,
> 500Gb hd RAID, Intel Core Duo 1,73, Intel Core duo 2,3 and
> amd64) running windows XP, Vista and Windows 7-64
> bits.
> I was using grid mode (grid server on separate
> computer... no ROBUST or UGAIM, it uses a PHP ugaim
> system).
>
>
>
> Separating Mysql to another machine on the same
> local network (100 Mbps nc) I could move, build, and even
> another avatar could enter.
> Exporting db and running it on separate server
> with Linux (ubuntu server 9.04) I could fill the region with
> 5000 more prims and 2 avatars could work smooth.
>
>
>
> Running opensim on Linux (amd64, 4gb ram, ubuntu
> server 9.04 64 bits) and db on separate linux server 2
> avatars could work smoothly and filling the region with
> 25000 prims (no simple prims, but different sizes,
> texturized and scripted).
>
>
>
> Anyway, that were my "home"
> experiences... My conclusion: separate db, don't use
> windows.
> Greetings
>
>
>
>
>
> 2010/2/16 Steve <[hidden email]>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
> Thank you, although this doesn't tie in to my bandwidth
> usage reports :/
>
>
>
> I have 60Gig peak, 240 Gig off peak allowance with my
> provider
> download. No limit upload. I have had the sim up and
> running for a week
> 24/7 (one region  only - and 24/7 apart from a
> OpenSimulator version
> upgrade and the odd restart), using my net connection as
> normal on my
> main PC.
>
>
>
> My usage for 1 - 15 Feb is 11.78 Gig D/L (which includes 3
> Gig HD vid
> from BBC iPlayer) and 2 Gig upload.
>
>
>
> I was interested in the OP question because I have a SQL
> server sat on
> my web hosts servers doing nada, but it looks like I will
> gain neither
> performance nor speed by trying to use it, nor will I save
> any
> bandwidth.
>
>
>
> This is a real learning experience.
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> On 16/02/2010 8:15 PM, John Mieske wrote:
> Oh I might add, that is 20 -
> 40KBytes Upload one way and
> 20 - 80 KB download one way. I thought I would meantion
> that.
>   John
>
>  
>
>   On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:14 PM,
> John Mieske
>   <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>   here
> is an example of what happened to me on a few Grids I have
> tested. Per
> AV I am uploading / downloading roughly 40KBytes a second.
> Not kBits.
> That is full load with everything going on. So I am giving
> the most I
> have seen in this case. That is roughly 320 KBit upload and
> download
> just for one avatar. So in theory, you should be able to
> push less then
> 40K IF your avatars are not really doing all of what they
> want them to.
> Example : Voice.
>    
>
>    
>     So with a 1 Meg upload, your looking at around 3
> Avatars
> smoothly. If your going to go with 2 Meg Upload which some
> of us have,
> then your could go to about 7 Avatars smoothly. Again, this
> is all
> dependant on what your USERS are doing. If all are building
> and in
> Voice all at once, then 1 Meg = 3 Avatars smoothly.
>    
>
>    
>     Keep in mind, this is a test I did myself on 5
> Grids I have
> tested. Each with different ISPs. So if your going to run a
> Grid you
> also have to account that the region that ties into your
> main region
> ALSO has to accomodate for the extra communication between
> each region
> that is not on the same computer / ISP. AND they are
> constantly 24 / 7
> communicating. So if you have a bandwidth limit, you could
> be in
> trouble. At a Previous version of Sim world, we had 500
> Megabytes
> transfer for about a weeks worth of time. And that is with
> only 8
> regions and VERY little activity. The limit ?  1
> Terribyte. So in one
> week, we ate up half our bandwidth limit. ( Thats all the
> HOST allowed
> at the time )
>    
>
>    
>     Bottom line, you MUST do the math to see if this
> is even
> possible to keep running before spending a lot of
> money.
>    
>
>    
>     John
>    
>    
>
>    
>
>     On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:41
> PM, Steve <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>    
>      
> So out of interest, what are the upload limits per avatar
> for example.
> I have just shy of 1 Mb upload speed, and have happily
> accommodated 8
> Avatars (after one in particular who was throwing up masses
> of errors
> left). How far could I, in theory, push it?
>
>      
>
> Steve
>      
>      
>
>      
>
> On 15/02/2010 11:00 PM, Ken G. wrote:
>       Alright, thanks Daz for
> answering my
> question and thanks
> to John and Master_Mirage for the input. I am just a hobby
> user of
> opensim, connected to OSGrid, hoping that maybe there was a
> way to
> improve my mediocre connection :)
>
>        
>
> Ken aka Key
>
>        
>
>        
>
>         On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at
> 3:00 PM, John
> Mieske <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>         I
> have
> to agree with Darren here. If your doing this at home, you
> might
> as well have both on the same computer. Your internet in
> general will
> dictate what you can do. So if your running this at home,
> hang up the
> idea of two computer region serving because no one will see
> a
> difference when they already bogg down from a slow internet
> connection
> to your region. I have seen some Regions who run them at
> home with the
> best of intentions only shut down days later because they
> realize their
> internet only allowed 2 avatars to run smoothly. When they
> got to 3,
> their sim started to crash. It is all about your upload
> speed. However,
> if you got a FAT PIPE ( not to smoke hahaha ) then yea you
> definitely
> might want to try the way I suggested. Again everything in
> OpenSim is
> based on HOW you run your Grid / Regions. Nothing is 100%
> set one way.
> I only offered a suggestion to those who could use this
> benefit. And
> there are already some servers that has been setup this way
> and they
> are smooth.
>          
>
>          
>           John
>
>          
>
>          
>          
>          
>           On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Darren
> Williams <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>          
>          
>          
>            
>            
>            
>            
>             Ken G asked:
>            
>              
>             Dumb question from a
> casual opensim
> user who
> is not fully
> clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head
> after reading John
> Mieske's
> Space Grid Station post:
>
>            
>
> Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home
> PC
> connection to be
> able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting
> server, such as
> Hostgator
> for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve
> performance
> of a
> lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
>
> I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted
> to blurt it out
> and see
> if it's worth pursuing.
>              
>            
>             Ken,
>              
>             You
> shouldn’t
> receive any benefit at all doing the above.
> In fact it will probably make things worse.
>              
>             If I’m
> reading this
> right then the region server which you
> have running locally would then be pulling/pushing the data
> from across
> the net
> on the mysql server, back to your machine. It would
> probably run worse.
>              
>             Daz
>            
>            
>            
>
>            
>            
>            
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
>             [hidden email]
>
>             https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>            
>
>            
>          
>          
>          
>
>          
>
>          
>
> --
>
> John Mieske / Winword Exonar
>
>           http://johnmieske.org
>
> Space Grid Station
>
>          
>          
>          
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
>           [hidden email]
>
>           https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>          
>
>        
>        
>        
>
>        
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>        
>      
>
>      
>      
>      
>      
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
>       [hidden email]
>
>       https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>      
>
>    
>    
>    
>
>    
>
>    
>
> --
>
> John Mieske / Winword Exonar
>
>     http://johnmieske.org
>
> Space Grid Station
>
>    
>    
>    
>  
>  
>  
>
>  
>
>  
>
> --
>
> John Mieske / Winword Exonar
>
>   http://johnmieske.org
>
> Space Grid Station
>
>  
>   _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
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>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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>
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>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

John Mieske
In reply to this post by Impalah Shenzhou
Ahh  you understand my past experiences.. hahaha

Good show man...

And I will repeat your last words.. unless your just practicing, don't use windows. Its too over bloated and too many processes are needed to run it. Those extra processes are needed to keep OpenSim running smoothly.

And for those who are new, do not underestimate those TWO cache files that come with OpenSim. Study those. They are your friends. :-)
John

On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 5:26 AM, Impalah Shenzhou <[hidden email]> wrote:
I arrive late, as usual :-)

When a region has around 12000 primitives, with a db server on the same machine you will have hell on earth or something like that.

Boot up time is around 10 minutes and is impossible to do anything but using zoom. Impossible to move.

I have tested this with 3 machines (4Gb ram, 500Gb hd RAID, Intel Core Duo 1,73, Intel Core duo 2,3 and amd64) running windows XP, Vista and Windows 7-64 bits.

I was using grid mode (grid server on separate computer... no ROBUST or UGAIM, it uses a PHP ugaim system).

Separating Mysql to another machine on the same local network (100 Mbps nc) I could move, build, and even another avatar could enter.

Exporting db and running it on separate server with Linux (ubuntu server 9.04) I could fill the region with 5000 more prims and 2 avatars could work smooth.

Running opensim on Linux (amd64, 4gb ram, ubuntu server 9.04 64 bits) and db on separate linux server 2 avatars could work smoothly and filling the region with 25000 prims (no simple prims, but different sizes, texturized and scripted).

Anyway, that were my "home" experiences... My conclusion: separate db, don't use windows.

Greetings



2010/2/16 Steve <[hidden email]>

Thank you, although this doesn't tie in to my bandwidth usage reports :/

I have 60Gig peak, 240 Gig off peak allowance with my provider download. No limit upload. I have had the sim up and running for a week 24/7 (one region  only - and 24/7 apart from a OpenSimulator version upgrade and the odd restart), using my net connection as normal on my main PC.

My usage for 1 - 15 Feb is 11.78 Gig D/L (which includes 3 Gig HD vid from BBC iPlayer) and 2 Gig upload.

I was interested in the OP question because I have a SQL server sat on my web hosts servers doing nada, but it looks like I will gain neither performance nor speed by trying to use it, nor will I save any bandwidth.

This is a real learning experience.

Steve


On 16/02/2010 8:15 PM, John Mieske wrote:
Oh I might add, that is 20 - 40KBytes Upload one way and 20 - 80 KB download one way. I thought I would meantion that.
John

On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:14 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
here is an example of what happened to me on a few Grids I have tested. Per AV I am uploading / downloading roughly 40KBytes a second. Not kBits. That is full load with everything going on. So I am giving the most I have seen in this case. That is roughly 320 KBit upload and download just for one avatar. So in theory, you should be able to push less then 40K IF your avatars are not really doing all of what they want them to. Example : Voice.

So with a 1 Meg upload, your looking at around 3 Avatars smoothly. If your going to go with 2 Meg Upload which some of us have, then your could go to about 7 Avatars smoothly. Again, this is all dependant on what your USERS are doing. If all are building and in Voice all at once, then 1 Meg = 3 Avatars smoothly.

Keep in mind, this is a test I did myself on 5 Grids I have tested. Each with different ISPs. So if your going to run a Grid you also have to account that the region that ties into your main region ALSO has to accomodate for the extra communication between each region that is not on the same computer / ISP. AND they are constantly 24 / 7 communicating. So if you have a bandwidth limit, you could be in trouble. At a Previous version of Sim world, we had 500 Megabytes transfer for about a weeks worth of time. And that is with only 8 regions and VERY little activity. The limit ?  1 Terribyte. So in one week, we ate up half our bandwidth limit. ( Thats all the HOST allowed at the time )

Bottom line, you MUST do the math to see if this is even possible to keep running before spending a lot of money.

John


On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Steve <[hidden email]> wrote:
So out of interest, what are the upload limits per avatar for example. I have just shy of 1 Mb upload speed, and have happily accommodated 8 Avatars (after one in particular who was throwing up masses of errors left). How far could I, in theory, push it?

Steve


On 15/02/2010 11:00 PM, Ken G. wrote:
Alright, thanks Daz for answering my question and thanks to John and Master_Mirage for the input. I am just a hobby user of opensim, connected to OSGrid, hoping that maybe there was a way to improve my mediocre connection :)

Ken aka Key


On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:00 PM, John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have to agree with Darren here. If your doing this at home, you might as well have both on the same computer. Your internet in general will dictate what you can do. So if your running this at home, hang up the idea of two computer region serving because no one will see a difference when they already bogg down from a slow internet connection to your region. I have seen some Regions who run them at home with the best of intentions only shut down days later because they realize their internet only allowed 2 avatars to run smoothly. When they got to 3, their sim started to crash. It is all about your upload speed. However, if you got a FAT PIPE ( not to smoke hahaha ) then yea you definitely might want to try the way I suggested. Again everything in OpenSim is based on HOW you run your Grid / Regions. Nothing is 100% set one way. I only offered a suggestion to those who could use this benefit. And there are already some servers that has been setup this way and they are smooth.

John

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Darren Williams <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ken G asked:

 

Dumb question from a casual opensim user who is not fully clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head after reading John Mieske's Space Grid Station post:

Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home PC connection to be able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting server, such as Hostgator for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve performance of a lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted to blurt it out and see if it's worth pursuing.

 

Ken,

 

You shouldn’t receive any benefit at all doing the above. In fact it will probably make things worse.

 

If I’m reading this right then the region server which you have running locally would then be pulling/pushing the data from across the net on the mysql server, back to your machine. It would probably run worse.

 

Daz


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http://johnmieske.org
Space Grid Station

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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

Tedd Hansen-2
In reply to this post by Karen_Palen
Hi

NTFS filesystem does have all the features of ext3/ext4 + much more (except maybe live resize of fs), and have had it for at least 10 years. NTFS has been way ahead of its time for well over a decade. The journal is the part that keeps your data safe (introduced in ext3) in event of a crash. BOTH filesystems have pre-allocation of space when you open a file for write, which combats fragmentation as long as you have a fair amount of free space on your disk. But Windows 2008 also has prioritized IO and background defragmenting which allows it to organize things in the background without affecting the services you are running. Anyway you should have enough memory to not care too much about fragmentation, it doesn't cost much and gives a good boost.

When that is said, the kernel does not matter that much anymore. That is a 90's discussion. Threading, memory handling, disk IO, all are competitive on all platforms today. Some advances are made now and then, but all the others are quick to follow.

I highly recommend the book "Modern Operating Systems" for anyone who wants to dig in deep in OS' in general.

Considerations to be made (from the top of my head):
1) Of course; how much memory, memory speed/bandwidth(bridge) and how many MHz's do you pack...
2) How much L2-cache do you have (quite important)?
3) How many physical CPU's do you have (cores share L2 cache)?
4) How many memory channels do you have (simultaneous memory access)?
5) How are these channels mapped to the CPU's?
6) Do the software you run know how to utilize the CPU2PhysicalMem(data) mapping correctly (MS-SQL does, MySQL does not afaik)?
7) Are you forcing many CPU-intensive components to share memory bandwith (regions, several db components, etc)? Remember that CPU-intensive tasks usually involve modifying some amount of memory.
8) What other tasks are you doing on this computer which affects #7.

Because of the fact that OpenSim is a CPU intensive package which uses a lot of code and memory you can run out of L2-cache on larger setups, hence you get a trashing behavior on treads.
So splitting OpenSim over multiple machines (regions, databases, etc) will yield better performance. Putting too much on the same machine will after a certain point cause an exponential decrease in speed (trashing behavior).

The exact point at where your installation will start trashing is highly dependent on hardware and number of objects ... but some general experience in this area would be very interesting.
OpenSim/3D worlds are hw-intensive applications, and squeezing the most out of them will be an issue for anyone who plan to have more than a handful of users. (What is the TCO of 1k visitors, 10k, 100k, etc.)

For kernel hackers...
If you have a dedicated OpenSim-server you could try to change the default Hz of the kernel. Currently it's at 250, optimized for multimedia such as video display.
Linus in e-mail explained it as "1kHz is also good in that it makes it easy to convert both to USER_HZ and to ms/ns. But maybe something like 250Hz would be better - still high enough that things like multimedia (which really wants higher frequencies in order to be able to sleep for fractional video-frames) should be happy, low enough that we use less CPU."
You can set this to 100 to avoid an additional 150 task switches and MMU-reprograms per second. This would allow each thread to work longer on the data it has retrieved from memory before a switch occurs.
This can be done for Windows as well with a simple registry change and reboot.
Linux: http://kerneltrap.org/node/5411
Windows: http://doc.sch130.nsc.ru/www.sysinternals.com/ntw2k/freeware/frob.shtml

Definition of trashing = http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrash_(computer_science)

BR,
 Tedd

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Karen Palen
Sent: 18. februar 2010 15:21
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] MySQL on seperate server?

Zonja did not specify, but I am guessing that he is using Windows since he needed to de-fragment his HD. The Linux ext3/4 file system takes care of that automatically in the journalling.

Inevitably there will be many differences between a Windows based system and a Linux based one, if only because the two OSes are so different in their kernals.

If you haven't already tried it, you should ge the best efficiency with one of the Linux server distros.

I have played with Ubuntu server and it is much "leaner" than the desktop version. The Kernel is optimised for database type applications rather than giving a responsive GUI.

I would assume that the other Linux server versions are similar, but I really don't know enough about them to compare. Any of them should come with all of the basic tools (LAMP, MySQL support etc) so it should boil down to which one fits your needs the best.

There are hundreds of "standard" tests for performance, but as far as I know there is nothing yet that is oriented to OpenSim. One of the MySQL benchmarks should give you some good insight though.

Karen

--- On Thu, 2/18/10, Impalah Shenzhou <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Impalah Shenzhou <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] MySQL on seperate server?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Thursday, February 18, 2010, 5:02 AM
> Then the problem are in my computers
> :-P or in the tests we both did.
>
> I got better performance separating db from
> opensim servers, but I don't know if prim
> size/modifications/colors/texturing/scripting have some
> influence in the results we both got.
>
> Any standard test for performance?
> 2010/2/18 Zonja Capalini
> <[hidden email]>
>
> I'm
> using a Quad Core Q6600 @ 2.40 GHz with 3 GB of RAM and two
> 372 GB HDsfor Condensation Land. Condensation runs two
> Opensim instances (8 and 3 sims respectively)
> in a serverless grid configuration AND the MySQL
> database. I have the OS in one HD and MySQL
> and Opensim in the other HD, and my startup times are
> < 2 mins even if I havesims with > 10000
> prims. When I log in with 512 m draw distance, I experience
> some lagfor 15 seconds or so (on a 10 Mb ADSL
> line) while everything is downloaded,
>
> then no lag. Tried it with four avatars, no
> lag.
> Defragmenting the HDs every so often does *a
> lot* to improve performance.
> ymmv
>
>   /Zonja
>
> On Thu, Feb 18, 2010 at 11:26 AM,
> Impalah Shenzhou <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>
> I arrive late, as usual :-)
>
> When a region has around 12000 primitives, with
> a db server on the same machine you will have hell on earth
> or something like that.
> Boot up time is around 10 minutes and is
> impossible to do anything but using zoom. Impossible to
> move.
>
>
>
> I have tested this with 3 machines (4Gb ram,
> 500Gb hd RAID, Intel Core Duo 1,73, Intel Core duo 2,3 and
> amd64) running windows XP, Vista and Windows 7-64
> bits.
> I was using grid mode (grid server on separate
> computer... no ROBUST or UGAIM, it uses a PHP ugaim
> system).
>
>
>
> Separating Mysql to another machine on the same
> local network (100 Mbps nc) I could move, build, and even
> another avatar could enter.
> Exporting db and running it on separate server
> with Linux (ubuntu server 9.04) I could fill the region with
> 5000 more prims and 2 avatars could work smooth.
>
>
>
> Running opensim on Linux (amd64, 4gb ram, ubuntu
> server 9.04 64 bits) and db on separate linux server 2
> avatars could work smoothly and filling the region with
> 25000 prims (no simple prims, but different sizes,
> texturized and scripted).
>
>
>
> Anyway, that were my "home"
> experiences... My conclusion: separate db, don't use
> windows.
> Greetings
>
>
>
>
>
> 2010/2/16 Steve <[hidden email]>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Thank you, although this doesn't tie in to my bandwidth
> usage reports :/
>
>
>
> I have 60Gig peak, 240 Gig off peak allowance with my
> provider
> download. No limit upload. I have had the sim up and
> running for a week
> 24/7 (one region  only - and 24/7 apart from a
> OpenSimulator version
> upgrade and the odd restart), using my net connection as
> normal on my
> main PC.
>
>
>
> My usage for 1 - 15 Feb is 11.78 Gig D/L (which includes 3
> Gig HD vid
> from BBC iPlayer) and 2 Gig upload.
>
>
>
> I was interested in the OP question because I have a SQL
> server sat on
> my web hosts servers doing nada, but it looks like I will
> gain neither
> performance nor speed by trying to use it, nor will I save
> any
> bandwidth.
>
>
>
> This is a real learning experience.
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> On 16/02/2010 8:15 PM, John Mieske wrote:
> Oh I might add, that is 20 -
> 40KBytes Upload one way and
> 20 - 80 KB download one way. I thought I would meantion
> that.
>   John
>
>
>
>   On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 3:14 PM,
> John Mieske
>   <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>   here
> is an example of what happened to me on a few Grids I have
> tested. Per
> AV I am uploading / downloading roughly 40KBytes a second.
> Not kBits.
> That is full load with everything going on. So I am giving
> the most I
> have seen in this case. That is roughly 320 KBit upload and
> download
> just for one avatar. So in theory, you should be able to
> push less then
> 40K IF your avatars are not really doing all of what they
> want them to.
> Example : Voice.
>
>
>
>     So with a 1 Meg upload, your looking at around 3
> Avatars
> smoothly. If your going to go with 2 Meg Upload which some
> of us have,
> then your could go to about 7 Avatars smoothly. Again, this
> is all
> dependant on what your USERS are doing. If all are building
> and in
> Voice all at once, then 1 Meg = 3 Avatars smoothly.
>
>
>
>     Keep in mind, this is a test I did myself on 5
> Grids I have
> tested. Each with different ISPs. So if your going to run a
> Grid you
> also have to account that the region that ties into your
> main region
> ALSO has to accomodate for the extra communication between
> each region
> that is not on the same computer / ISP. AND they are
> constantly 24 / 7
> communicating. So if you have a bandwidth limit, you could
> be in
> trouble. At a Previous version of Sim world, we had 500
> Megabytes
> transfer for about a weeks worth of time. And that is with
> only 8
> regions and VERY little activity. The limit ?  1
> Terribyte. So in one
> week, we ate up half our bandwidth limit. ( Thats all the
> HOST allowed
> at the time )
>
>
>
>     Bottom line, you MUST do the math to see if this
> is even
> possible to keep running before spending a lot of
> money.
>
>
>
>     John
>
>
>
>
>
>     On Tue, Feb 16, 2010 at 2:41
> PM, Steve <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> So out of interest, what are the upload limits per avatar
> for example.
> I have just shy of 1 Mb upload speed, and have happily
> accommodated 8
> Avatars (after one in particular who was throwing up masses
> of errors
> left). How far could I, in theory, push it?
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>
> On 15/02/2010 11:00 PM, Ken G. wrote:
>       Alright, thanks Daz for
> answering my
> question and thanks
> to John and Master_Mirage for the input. I am just a hobby
> user of
> opensim, connected to OSGrid, hoping that maybe there was a
> way to
> improve my mediocre connection :)
>
>
>
> Ken aka Key
>
>
>
>
>
>         On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at
> 3:00 PM, John
> Mieske <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>         I
> have
> to agree with Darren here. If your doing this at home, you
> might
> as well have both on the same computer. Your internet in
> general will
> dictate what you can do. So if your running this at home,
> hang up the
> idea of two computer region serving because no one will see
> a
> difference when they already bogg down from a slow internet
> connection
> to your region. I have seen some Regions who run them at
> home with the
> best of intentions only shut down days later because they
> realize their
> internet only allowed 2 avatars to run smoothly. When they
> got to 3,
> their sim started to crash. It is all about your upload
> speed. However,
> if you got a FAT PIPE ( not to smoke hahaha ) then yea you
> definitely
> might want to try the way I suggested. Again everything in
> OpenSim is
> based on HOW you run your Grid / Regions. Nothing is 100%
> set one way.
> I only offered a suggestion to those who could use this
> benefit. And
> there are already some servers that has been setup this way
> and they
> are smooth.
>
>
>
>           John
>
>
>
>
>
>
>           On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:39 PM, Darren
> Williams <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>             Ken G asked:
>
>
>             Dumb question from a
> casual opensim
> user who
> is not fully
> clued in on it's workings, that popped into my head
> after reading John
> Mieske's
> Space Grid Station post:
>
>
>
> Is it feasible and sensible while running opensim on a home
> PC
> connection to be
> able to use a MySQL database on a shared web hosting
> server, such as
> Hostgator
> for example? If possible, would this type of setup improve
> performance
> of a
> lightly used standalone or grid-connected sim?
>
> I haven't put much thought into this idea, just wanted
> to blurt it out
> and see
> if it's worth pursuing.
>
>
>             Ken,
>
>             You
> shouldn’t
> receive any benefit at all doing the above.
> In fact it will probably make things worse.
>
>             If I’m
> reading this
> right then the region server which you
> have running locally would then be pulling/pushing the data
> from across
> the net
> on the mysql server, back to your machine. It would
> probably run worse.
>
>             Daz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
>             [hidden email]
>
>             https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> John Mieske / Winword Exonar
>
>           http://johnmieske.org
>
> Space Grid Station
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
>           [hidden email]
>
>           https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
>       [hidden email]
>
>       https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> John Mieske / Winword Exonar
>
>     http://johnmieske.org
>
> Space Grid Station
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> John Mieske / Winword Exonar
>
>   http://johnmieske.org
>
> Space Grid Station
>
>
>   _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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Re: MySQL on seperate server?

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by Impalah Shenzhou
<quote author="Impalah Shenzhou">
I arrive late, as usual :-)

When a region has around 12000 primitives, with a db server on the same
machine you will have hell on earth or something like that.

Boot up time is around 10 minutes and is impossible to do anything but using
zoom. Impossible to move.

I have tested this with 3 machines (4Gb ram, 500Gb hd RAID, Intel Core Duo
1,73, Intel Core duo 2,3 and amd64) running windows XP, Vista and Windows
7-64 bits.

I was using grid mode (grid server on separate computer... no ROBUST or
UGAIM, it uses a PHP ugaim system).

Separating Mysql to another machine on the same local network (100 Mbps nc)
I could move, build, and even another avatar could enter.

Exporting db and running it on separate server with Linux (ubuntu server
9.04) I could fill the region with 5000 more prims and 2 avatars could work
smooth.

Running opensim on Linux (amd64, 4gb ram, ubuntu server 9.04 64 bits) and db
on separate linux server 2 avatars could work smoothly and filling the
region with 25000 prims (no simple prims, but different sizes, texturized
and scripted).

Anyway, that were my "home" experiences... My conclusion: separate db, don't
use windows.

Greetings


Well 1st a bit on that. going back in time 1.5 years now running opensimulator, At 1st it dident really matter as there wasent enough of a DB to become a problem with YET. I had to take in account baised on (no was really shure about anything) what it was i wanted someday. I knew that both linux and win were used but seemed a hot argument and still no one really had an answer for whats best for running a grid on. I Decided  that the only true way to know is run both and see.
So i purchaced 5 quad core servers all the same equip. ram ect. To me this would be enough putter power to find out with. Remeber that opensimulator is still alpha and was more so then.
I begain testing the MANY ways a grid can be formed and the equip. made it a bit easyer to see it Side By Side in real time.
It dident take long to see that mysql would grow in perpotion to the db size as to its own demands.
At 1st it was faster to have mysql local to the services and was for sometime. Later it started to glom onto the same resources the instances needed and begain to get verry slow. At that point assets were around 3-4 gigs. Seeing the problem i knew i had to do something as the longer i waited the worse it would get.
Moved Mysql to another box knowing latency would be there.
That indeed delt with the 'tipping point' it reached. It wasent hard to see for my selph what happend.
That worked well for sometime but it begain to develop its own problems due to the unknowen) as to its settings. Had to readj the MySql settings 4 times and 2 total rebuilds due to the never ending growth of assest data. When it hit around 10-11gigs assests a whole new set of problems showed up. The big one is all that data has to be maintained and backed up. This took most of a day of downtime as why its doing all that its locking the tables and Opensimulator freeks. Thats not good and not only is the grid offline but the amout of time by me to work on it became excessive. As orginaly i had bee wise and bought enough computers i spent a good while learing about Mysql replication. This does solve some of the problems as it lets me switch the services to use the other Mysql and allows maint to happen with little effort.
Only the one maint is beeing done on has tables locked not both.
Moveing to current time. 23+gigs assests and at my goal of 100 regions (un-told amout of prims and scripts whatever) it was a verry good plan.
Is it as fast as it could be? Nope! The problem will allways be there. Is it scaleable? You betcha!.
I guess my point is Depends on what you expect your grid tobe and planning assuming worse case as best as you can.
Opensimulator is made to be as felxable as it needs tobe and what oper. system i find is a push. Both do an excellent job and Both can and do show the same performance when set up properly.
For me the differances realy boiled down to what was more comfortable for me to maintain. In my case im dealing with many servers acting as one. If you ask me whats better ill say none.
My best suggestion for ppl starting out is expect nothing and be really happy when it all works better than you though

There will allways be argument and theroy and thats a good thing but there is no better judge than you and what you can see in realtime.

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