Nasty vibration walking on terrain

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Nasty vibration walking on terrain

Ethan Gardener
Hi. When walking on sim terrain in a short avatar, I get really nasty vibrations, making my view shake and everything. It's bad enough that I can hardly walk around. This has been going on for over a year now, but I just found it can be greatly reduced by a config change. I'd appreciate any info on what config option it might be, and why the default is so awful. (Would a change to that option make OpenSim more likely to crash?)

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Re: Nasty vibration walking on terrain

Luisillo Contepomi-2
Hi Ethan,
I detect this problem on avatars size 3'10" / 46 Inch / 118cm. With
Singularity and Firestorm viewers.

What viewer are you using and the OpenSim Version and your avatar size?
(I think the limit for this problem is < 120cm.)

I am using Firestorm (last release) on OpenSim 0.8.0.3 and I have not
this problem. My size is 4'5" / 53 Inch / 135cm. But with Singularity
and other viewers I have this problem.

Best regards,
Luisillo

El 28/02/2015 a las 22:53, Ethan Grammatikidis escribió:
> Hi. When walking on sim terrain in a short avatar, I get really nasty vibrations, making my view shake and everything. It's bad enough that I can hardly walk around. This has been going on for over a year now, but I just found it can be greatly reduced by a config change. I'd appreciate any info on what config option it might be, and why the default is so awful. (Would a change to that option make OpenSim more likely to crash?)
>

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Re: Nasty vibration walking on terrain

Mister Blue
I don't see this in my testing but It can easily happen if the avatar height computation is not exactly synchronized between the simulator and the viewer[1].

If you are running BulletSim, the simulator setting you mention is documented at http://opensimulator.org/wiki/BulletSim#Adjusting_Avatar_Height . You can up the AvatarHeightLowFudge a little and see if that helps.  if you have access to the console, you can test values with "physics set AvatarHeightLowFudge 0.2" after changing to the region being tested.

-- mb

[1] For the technically inclined, the avatar is represented by a rectangular shape. In the simulator, this shape uses physics to rest on the terrain. The height of the avatar is divided by two and added to this bottom location and sent to the viewer. The viewer then divides its belief in the avatars height and subtracts that from the location from the simulator to get the bottom of the avatar. If that bottom is below where the viewer thinks the terrain is, the viewer will move the avatar up a little to correct the overlap. Given differences that can happen between the simulator and viewer, they can start fighting each other with the simulator placing the avatar with where it thinks it is and the viewer making corrections depending on its calculation. This fighting creates the jitter. Many attempts have been made to reduce these height problems for all avatar heights and all versions of the viewers but a perfect solution has not yet been coded. 

On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Luisillo Contepomi <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Ethan,
I detect this problem on avatars size 3'10" / 46 Inch / 118cm. With Singularity and Firestorm viewers.

What viewer are you using and the OpenSim Version and your avatar size?
(I think the limit for this problem is < 120cm.)

I am using Firestorm (last release) on OpenSim 0.8.0.3 and I have not this problem. My size is 4'5" / 53 Inch / 135cm. But with Singularity and other viewers I have this problem.

Best regards,
Luisillo

El 28/02/2015 a las 22:53, Ethan Grammatikidis escribió:
Hi. When walking on sim terrain in a short avatar, I get really nasty vibrations, making my view shake and everything. It's bad enough that I can hardly walk around. This has been going on for over a year now, but I just found it can be greatly reduced by a config change. I'd appreciate any info on what config option it might be, and why the default is so awful. (Would a change to that option make OpenSim more likely to crash?)


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Re: Nasty vibration walking on terrain

Ethan Gardener
In reply to this post by Luisillo Contepomi-2
As I said, this has been going on for over a year. (I first noticed it in November 2013.) That's how many OpenSim versions?

The time period also covers several versions of Firestorm, some significantly different to the latest version. I normally use Firestorm for OpenSim, but sometimes I try other viewers, including Cool and Kokua. The vibration is the same in all of them. (My computer can no longer run Imprudence or any other truly "v1" viewers.)

Luisillo, it sounds like you already have the configuration change, because you say you do not have the problem with a 4'5" avatar. In my OpenSim standalone and all the grids I have been in except one, the vibration is noticeable on a 5'4" avatar. ("Noticeable", not "bad".) My normal avatar is about 4'6", but on this one grid where the problem is reduced my avatar is 5'1" tall. Note this is only grid configuration change, the numbers for my avatar are the same. Perhaps that is a clue.

... Or perhaps not! While typing this email, I took a minute out to chat with the tech chief of the grid where the problem seems better after the config change. He couldn't understand how the change helped, because all he'd changed was database access, to better distribute database load. Now, I immediately thought of a bug InWorldz just uncovered last month: While an avatar is moving there is constant database access. I don't know how OpenSim is threaded, but with the wrong threading or locking arrangements physics calculations could be paused by database access.

I would not be at all surprised if this bug (constant database access while avatar is moving) is true of current OpenSim, especially because up-to-date OpenSim grids display a bug which may be a symptom: when a vehicle crosses between parcels with "restrict sounds to this parcel", the vehicle sounds go quiet for as long as the sound-emitting prim is not in the same parcel as the driver. (This does not happen in Second Life, so we know it's not the viewer being that strict.)


On Sun, Mar 1, 2015, at 12:33 AM, Luisillo Contepomi wrote:

> Hi Ethan,
> I detect this problem on avatars size 3'10" / 46 Inch / 118cm. With
> Singularity and Firestorm viewers.
>
> What viewer are you using and the OpenSim Version and your avatar size?
> (I think the limit for this problem is < 120cm.)
>
> I am using Firestorm (last release) on OpenSim 0.8.0.3 and I have not
> this problem. My size is 4'5" / 53 Inch / 135cm. But with Singularity
> and other viewers I have this problem.
>
> Best regards,
> Luisillo
>
> El 28/02/2015 a las 22:53, Ethan Grammatikidis escribió:
> > Hi. When walking on sim terrain in a short avatar, I get really nasty vibrations, making my view shake and everything. It's bad enough that I can hardly walk around. This has been going on for over a year now, but I just found it can be greatly reduced by a config change. I'd appreciate any info on what config option it might be, and why the default is so awful. (Would a change to that option make OpenSim more likely to crash?)
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: Nasty vibration walking on terrain

Ethan Gardener
In reply to this post by Mister Blue
Thank you Mister Blue, that's just the info I was hoping for. I wish I'd waited a little longer to start writing my previous reply.
 
 
On Sun, Mar 1, 2015, at 01:38 AM, Mister Blue wrote:
I don't see this in my testing but It can easily happen if the avatar height computation is not exactly synchronized between the simulator and the viewer[1].
 
If you are running BulletSim, the simulator setting you mention is documented at http://opensimulator.org/wiki/BulletSim#Adjusting_Avatar_Height . You can up the AvatarHeightLowFudge a little and see if that helps.  if you have access to the console, you can test values with "physics set AvatarHeightLowFudge 0.2" after changing to the region being tested.
 
-- mb
 
[1] For the technically inclined, the avatar is represented by a rectangular shape. In the simulator, this shape uses physics to rest on the terrain. The height of the avatar is divided by two and added to this bottom location and sent to the viewer. The viewer then divides its belief in the avatars height and subtracts that from the location from the simulator to get the bottom of the avatar. If that bottom is below where the viewer thinks the terrain is, the viewer will move the avatar up a little to correct the overlap. Given differences that can happen between the simulator and viewer, they can start fighting each other with the simulator placing the avatar with where it thinks it is and the viewer making corrections depending on its calculation. This fighting creates the jitter. Many attempts have been made to reduce these height problems for all avatar heights and all versions of the viewers but a perfect solution has not yet been coded. 
 
On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Luisillo Contepomi <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi Ethan,
I detect this problem on avatars size 3'10" / 46 Inch / 118cm. With Singularity and Firestorm viewers.
 
What viewer are you using and the OpenSim Version and your avatar size?
(I think the limit for this problem is < 120cm.)
 
I am using Firestorm (last release) on OpenSim 0.8.0.3 and I have not this problem. My size is 4'5" / 53 Inch / 135cm. But with Singularity and other viewers I have this problem.
 
Best regards,
Luisillo
 
El 28/02/2015 a las 22:53, Ethan Grammatikidis escribió:
 
Hi. When walking on sim terrain in a short avatar, I get really nasty vibrations, making my view shake and everything. It's bad enough that I can hardly walk around. This has been going on for over a year now, but I just found it can be greatly reduced by a config change. I'd appreciate any info on what config option it might be, and why the default is so awful. (Would a change to that option make OpenSim more likely to crash?)
 
 
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Re: Nasty vibration walking on terrain

Luisillo Contepomi-2
In reply to this post by Ethan Gardener
My configuration for Bulletsim  in OpenSim.ini from versions 0.7.6 to
today actually 0.8.0.3


[BulletSim]
     ; Avatar physics height adjustments.
     ;   http://opensimulator.org/wiki/BulletSim#Adjusting_Avatar_Height
     AvatarHeightLowFudge = -0.3  ; Adjustment at low end of height range
     ;AvatarHeightMidFudge = 0.0  ; Adjustment at mid point of avatar
height range
     ;AvatarHeightHighFudge = 0.6 ; Adjustment at high end of height range


   ;; Default values are:
   ;;  AvatarStepHeight = 0.5
   ;;  AvatarStepApproachFactor = 0.6
   ;;  AvatarStepUpCorrectionFactor = 1.0
   ;;  AvatarStepForceFactor = 1.0
   ;;  AvatarStepSmoothingSteps = 2


As you can see I change only AvatarHeightLowFudge = -0.3

Please try it and comment the results.

Kindest regards
Luisillo

El 01/03/2015 a las 3:15, Ethan Grammatikidis escribió:

> As I said, this has been going on for over a year. (I first noticed it in November 2013.) That's how many OpenSim versions?
>
> The time period also covers several versions of Firestorm, some significantly different to the latest version. I normally use Firestorm for OpenSim, but sometimes I try other viewers, including Cool and Kokua. The vibration is the same in all of them. (My computer can no longer run Imprudence or any other truly "v1" viewers.)
>
> Luisillo, it sounds like you already have the configuration change, because you say you do not have the problem with a 4'5" avatar. In my OpenSim standalone and all the grids I have been in except one, the vibration is noticeable on a 5'4" avatar. ("Noticeable", not "bad".) My normal avatar is about 4'6", but on this one grid where the problem is reduced my avatar is 5'1" tall. Note this is only grid configuration change, the numbers for my avatar are the same. Perhaps that is a clue.
>
> ... Or perhaps not! While typing this email, I took a minute out to chat with the tech chief of the grid where the problem seems better after the config change. He couldn't understand how the change helped, because all he'd changed was database access, to better distribute database load. Now, I immediately thought of a bug InWorldz just uncovered last month: While an avatar is moving there is constant database access. I don't know how OpenSim is threaded, but with the wrong threading or locking arrangements physics calculations could be paused by database access.
>
> I would not be at all surprised if this bug (constant database access while avatar is moving) is true of current OpenSim, especially because up-to-date OpenSim grids display a bug which may be a symptom: when a vehicle crosses between parcels with "restrict sounds to this parcel", the vehicle sounds go quiet for as long as the sound-emitting prim is not in the same parcel as the driver. (This does not happen in Second Life, so we know it's not the viewer being that strict.)
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015, at 12:33 AM, Luisillo Contepomi wrote:
>> Hi Ethan,
>> I detect this problem on avatars size 3'10" / 46 Inch / 118cm. With
>> Singularity and Firestorm viewers.
>>
>> What viewer are you using and the OpenSim Version and your avatar size?
>> (I think the limit for this problem is < 120cm.)
>>
>> I am using Firestorm (last release) on OpenSim 0.8.0.3 and I have not
>> this problem. My size is 4'5" / 53 Inch / 135cm. But with Singularity
>> and other viewers I have this problem.
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Luisillo
>>
>> El 28/02/2015 a las 22:53, Ethan Grammatikidis escribió:
>>> Hi. When walking on sim terrain in a short avatar, I get really nasty vibrations, making my view shake and everything. It's bad enough that I can hardly walk around. This has been going on for over a year now, but I just found it can be greatly reduced by a config change. I'd appreciate any info on what config option it might be, and why the default is so awful. (Would a change to that option make OpenSim more likely to crash?)
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
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Re: Nasty vibration walking on terrain

Luisillo Contepomi-2
In reply to this post by Ethan Gardener
In my case the vibration is evident only when avatar stop. Others
avatars with higth < 120cm. have the vibration all time.

Luisillo



El 01/03/2015 a las 3:16, Ethan Grammatikidis escribió:

>
> Thank you Mister Blue, that's just the info I was hoping for. I wish I'd
> waited a little longer to start writing my previous reply.
>
>
> On Sun, Mar 1, 2015, at 01:38 AM, Mister Blue wrote:
>> I don't see this in my testing but It can easily happen if the avatar
>> height computation is not exactly synchronized between the simulator
>> and the viewer[1].
>>
>> If you are running BulletSim, the simulator setting you mention is
>> documented at
>> http://opensimulator.org/wiki/BulletSim#Adjusting_Avatar_Height . You
>> can up the AvatarHeightLowFudge a little and see if that helps. if you
>> have access to the console, you can test values with "physics set
>> AvatarHeightLowFudge 0.2" after changing to the region being tested.
>>
>> -- mb
>>
>> [1] For the technically inclined, the avatar is represented by a
>>      rectangular shape. In the simulator, this shape uses physics to
>>      rest on the terrain. The height of the avatar is divided by two
>>      and added to this bottom location and sent to the viewer. The
>>      viewer then divides its belief in the avatars height and subtracts
>>      that from the location from the simulator to get the bottom of the
>>      avatar. If that bottom is below where the viewer thinks the
>>      terrain is, the viewer will move the avatar up a little to correct
>>      the overlap. Given differences that can happen between the
>>      simulator and viewer, they can start fighting each other with the
>>      simulator placing the avatar with where it thinks it is and the
>>      viewer making corrections depending on its calculation. This
>>      fighting creates the jitter. Many attempts have been made to
>>      reduce these height problems for all avatar heights and all
>>      versions of the viewers but a perfect solution has not yet been
>>      coded.
>>
>> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Luisillo Contepomi
>> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> Hi Ethan,
>>>
> I detect this problem on avatars size 3'10" / 46 Inch / 118cm. With
> Singularity and Firestorm viewers.
>>>
>>>
> What viewer are you using and the OpenSim Version and your avatar size?
>>>
> (I think the limit for this problem is < 120cm.)
>>>
>>>
> I am using Firestorm (last release) on OpenSim 0.8.0.3 and I have not
> this problem. My size is 4'5" / 53 Inch / 135cm. But with Singularity
> and other viewers I have this problem.
>>>
>>>
> Best regards,
>>>
> Luisillo
>>>
>>>
> El 28/02/2015 a las 22:53, Ethan Grammatikidis escribió:
>>>
>>>>
> Hi. When walking on sim terrain in a short avatar, I get really nasty
> vibrations, making my view shake and everything. It's bad enough that I
> can hardly walk around. This has been going on for over a year now, but
> I just found it can be greatly reduced by a config change. I'd
> appreciate any info on what config option it might be, and why the
> default is so awful. (Would a change to that option make OpenSim more
> likely to crash?)
>>>
>>>
>>> _________________________________________________
>>>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>>> Opensim-users@opensimulator.__org
>>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-__bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-__users
>>
>> _________________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list [hidden email]
>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
> --
> Wir mussen wissen, wir werden wissen.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
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Re: Nasty vibration walking on terrain

Ethan Gardener
It's most noticeable when walking alongside a building. The corner where the building meets the terrain shows the vibration of the view. When the side of the building has a brick texture, this is the worst for causing motion sickness. A thin prim path is also bad because the contrast between the path and the ground makes the vibration more visible. Still, the vibration is always most noticeable when you stop.

Ok.. results from testing:

[BulletSim]
    AvatarHeightLowFudge = 0.8
    AvatarHeightMidFudge = 0.4
    AvatarHeightHighFudge = 0

That's high, lol, but it works. Looking extremely closely with a brick wall beside and a (phantom) brick path below the avatar, these settings gave the following results:

135cm (4'5") avatar: No vibration. This is the shortest shape I can make.

163cm (5'4") avatar: Very very slight vibration visible when I look extremely closely. In normal use I'm sure it would not be seen at all.

200cm (6'7") avatar: No vibration. This is the midpoint of the height range.

264cm (8'8") avatar: No vibration. This is the tallest shape+shoes I can make; tested just in case.

Sizes are as given by the avatar appearance panel.

Unfortunately, with those settings the avatar is way off the ground. I measured 30cm from terrain to sole of the shortest shape. Still, as they prevent vibration, I'll be recommending them to grid owners. I might even go back to terrain on my standalone, but half the builds will need mesh terrain anyway, so there's not much point.


On Sun, Mar 1, 2015, at 09:40 AM, Luisillo Contepomi wrote:

> In my case the vibration is evident only when avatar stop. Others
> avatars with higth < 120cm. have the vibration all time.
>
> Luisillo
>
>
>
> El 01/03/2015 a las 3:16, Ethan Grammatikidis escribió:
> >
> > Thank you Mister Blue, that's just the info I was hoping for. I wish I'd
> > waited a little longer to start writing my previous reply.
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Mar 1, 2015, at 01:38 AM, Mister Blue wrote:
> >> I don't see this in my testing but It can easily happen if the avatar
> >> height computation is not exactly synchronized between the simulator
> >> and the viewer[1].
> >>
> >> If you are running BulletSim, the simulator setting you mention is
> >> documented at
> >> http://opensimulator.org/wiki/BulletSim#Adjusting_Avatar_Height . You
> >> can up the AvatarHeightLowFudge a little and see if that helps. if you
> >> have access to the console, you can test values with "physics set
> >> AvatarHeightLowFudge 0.2" after changing to the region being tested.
> >>
> >> -- mb
> >>
> >> [1] For the technically inclined, the avatar is represented by a
> >>      rectangular shape. In the simulator, this shape uses physics to
> >>      rest on the terrain. The height of the avatar is divided by two
> >>      and added to this bottom location and sent to the viewer. The
> >>      viewer then divides its belief in the avatars height and subtracts
> >>      that from the location from the simulator to get the bottom of the
> >>      avatar. If that bottom is below where the viewer thinks the
> >>      terrain is, the viewer will move the avatar up a little to correct
> >>      the overlap. Given differences that can happen between the
> >>      simulator and viewer, they can start fighting each other with the
> >>      simulator placing the avatar with where it thinks it is and the
> >>      viewer making corrections depending on its calculation. This
> >>      fighting creates the jitter. Many attempts have been made to
> >>      reduce these height problems for all avatar heights and all
> >>      versions of the viewers but a perfect solution has not yet been
> >>      coded.
> >>
> >> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 4:33 PM, Luisillo Contepomi
> >> <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>> Hi Ethan,
> >>>
> > I detect this problem on avatars size 3'10" / 46 Inch / 118cm. With
> > Singularity and Firestorm viewers.
> >>>
> >>>
> > What viewer are you using and the OpenSim Version and your avatar size?
> >>>
> > (I think the limit for this problem is < 120cm.)
> >>>
> >>>
> > I am using Firestorm (last release) on OpenSim 0.8.0.3 and I have not
> > this problem. My size is 4'5" / 53 Inch / 135cm. But with Singularity
> > and other viewers I have this problem.
> >>>
> >>>
> > Best regards,
> >>>
> > Luisillo
> >>>
> >>>
> > El 28/02/2015 a las 22:53, Ethan Grammatikidis escribió:
> >>>
> >>>>
> > Hi. When walking on sim terrain in a short avatar, I get really nasty
> > vibrations, making my view shake and everything. It's bad enough that I
> > can hardly walk around. This has been going on for over a year now, but
> > I just found it can be greatly reduced by a config change. I'd
> > appreciate any info on what config option it might be, and why the
> > default is so awful. (Would a change to that option make OpenSim more
> > likely to crash?)
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _________________________________________________
> >>>
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> >>> Opensim-users@opensimulator.__org
> >>> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-__bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-__users
> >>
> >> _________________________________________________
> >> Opensim-users mailing list [hidden email]
> >> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> >
> > --
> > Wir mussen wissen, wir werden wissen.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: Nasty vibration walking on terrain

Luisillo Contepomi-2
Avatar is walking "flying" at 30 cm over land.
Is not a solution.


El 01/03/2015 a las 22:16, Ethan Grammatikidis escribió:
> Ok.. results from testing:
>
> [BulletSim]
>      AvatarHeightLowFudge = 0.8
>      AvatarHeightMidFudge = 0.4
>      AvatarHeightHighFudge = 0
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Re: Nasty vibration walking on terrain

Luisillo Contepomi-2

Please look your "hitbox" when you are walking.

Develop Menu, Render metadata ...avatar hitboxes.

The cabin is "in" sand when you are stoped.
When you are walking the cabin is going up and down with the steps.
This is the vibration.
The questions for me now is:
Can we positioning the avatar down of his capsule?.  As is in big avatars.

With AvatarHeightLowFudge < -0.3  big avatars feets are "in" land
positive values do the little avatars are on air over land.

Kindest regards,
Luisillo


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Re: Nasty vibration walking on terrain

Ethan Gardener
In reply to this post by Luisillo Contepomi-2
Indeed it is not, and I found another problem with my settings: it's impossible for the avatar to get up small steps (0.25m or less) without jumping. How this fails only by increasing the avatar height, I don't know.

I'll try looking at the hitbox another day.

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015, at 05:01 PM, Luisillo Contepomi wrote:

> Avatar is walking "flying" at 30 cm over land.
> Is not a solution.
>
>
> El 01/03/2015 a las 22:16, Ethan Grammatikidis escribió:
> > Ok.. results from testing:
> >
> > [BulletSim]
> >      AvatarHeightLowFudge = 0.8
> >      AvatarHeightMidFudge = 0.4
> >      AvatarHeightHighFudge = 0
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> http://opensimulator.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: Nasty vibration walking on terrain

R.Gunther
Did you do the small step test with the latest opensim release ? Because
things seems improved in the 0.8.1 versions.

On 2015-03-02 23:36, Ethan Grammatikidis wrote:

> Indeed it is not, and I found another problem with my settings: it's impossible for the avatar to get up small steps (0.25m or less) without jumping. How this fails only by increasing the avatar height, I don't know.
>
> I'll try looking at the hitbox another day.
>
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015, at 05:01 PM, Luisillo Contepomi wrote:
>> Avatar is walking "flying" at 30 cm over land.
>> Is not a solution.
>>
>>
>> El 01/03/2015 a las 22:16, Ethan Grammatikidis escribió:
>>> Ok.. results from testing:
>>>
>>> [BulletSim]
>>>       AvatarHeightLowFudge = 0.8
>>>       AvatarHeightMidFudge = 0.4
>>>       AvatarHeightHighFudge = 0
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