OpenSim and Virtual Machines

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OpenSim and Virtual Machines

dogwomble
Hi all

I wad wondering if anyone had much experience with running OpenSim under a
virtual machine? I'm interested in finding out what sort of performance
can be expected from running in that sort of environment and how far it
can be pushed without too many issues.

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Re: OpenSim and Virtual Machines

justincc
I've seen OpenSimulator run under different virtual machines (Xen and EC2).  Back a few years ago, there was a very odd
issue when using EC2 where the simulator process wouldn't certain start context switching millions of times and freeze
out all other processes, though that may have been a mono issue rather than EC2.

Other than that, it appears to work just fine as long as you give it sufficient CPU resources, as is the case when
running on bare metal.

On 20/02/14 21:19, [hidden email] wrote:

> Hi all
>
> I wad wondering if anyone had much experience with running OpenSim under a
> virtual machine? I'm interested in finding out what sort of performance
> can be expected from running in that sort of environment and how far it
> can be pushed without too many issues.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>


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Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
OSVW Consulting
http://justincc.org
http://twitter.com/justincc
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Re: OpenSim and Virtual Machines

Dahlia Trimble
I've used OpenSimulator in a variety of virtual machines, from KVM to OpenVZ to VirtualBox to EC2. In general performance is less than when running in bare hardware but everything usually works. I've seen some issues with timer accuracy in some virtual machines in the past and had to compile a custom linux kernel to get around it, but I think recent virtualization technology has probably fixed this. Some technologies like OpenVZ I found very difficult to work with in general and I prefer to stick with the KVM style approach where the host OS kernel is set up to allow a "closer to the metal" virtualization.

I think virtual machines are good for lower performance installations where fewer avatars and scripts are expected. and bare metal should be used where higher performance is needed.

Often hosting companies will oversell and you may get a lot less performance than you would expect from their advertised specifications. If performance is poor with one company, try others. The cheapest deal is usually far from the best.


On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Justin Clark-Casey <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've seen OpenSimulator run under different virtual machines (Xen and EC2).  Back a few years ago, there was a very odd issue when using EC2 where the simulator process wouldn't certain start context switching millions of times and freeze out all other processes, though that may have been a mono issue rather than EC2.

Other than that, it appears to work just fine as long as you give it sufficient CPU resources, as is the case when running on bare metal.


On 20/02/14 21:19, [hidden email] wrote:
Hi all

I wad wondering if anyone had much experience with running OpenSim under a
virtual machine? I'm interested in finding out what sort of performance
can be expected from running in that sort of environment and how far it
can be pushed without too many issues.

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
OSVW Consulting
http://justincc.org
http://twitter.com/justincc

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Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: OpenSim and Virtual Machines

John Sheridan
If you're looking to run your own hypervisor I'd suggest something called Proxmox.  Its open source / linux based and allows you to create both openvz and kvm containers via a nifty web interface.  Their website is https://pve.proxmox.com


On 02/21/2014 12:24 AM, Dahlia Trimble wrote:
I've used OpenSimulator in a variety of virtual machines, from KVM to OpenVZ to VirtualBox to EC2. In general performance is less than when running in bare hardware but everything usually works. I've seen some issues with timer accuracy in some virtual machines in the past and had to compile a custom linux kernel to get around it, but I think recent virtualization technology has probably fixed this. Some technologies like OpenVZ I found very difficult to work with in general and I prefer to stick with the KVM style approach where the host OS kernel is set up to allow a "closer to the metal" virtualization.

I think virtual machines are good for lower performance installations where fewer avatars and scripts are expected. and bare metal should be used where higher performance is needed.

Often hosting companies will oversell and you may get a lot less performance than you would expect from their advertised specifications. If performance is poor with one company, try others. The cheapest deal is usually far from the best.


On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Justin Clark-Casey <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've seen OpenSimulator run under different virtual machines (Xen and EC2).  Back a few years ago, there was a very odd issue when using EC2 where the simulator process wouldn't certain start context switching millions of times and freeze out all other processes, though that may have been a mono issue rather than EC2.

Other than that, it appears to work just fine as long as you give it sufficient CPU resources, as is the case when running on bare metal.


On 20/02/14 21:19, [hidden email] wrote:
Hi all

I wad wondering if anyone had much experience with running OpenSim under a
virtual machine? I'm interested in finding out what sort of performance
can be expected from running in that sort of environment and how far it
can be pushed without too many issues.

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
OSVW Consulting
http://justincc.org
http://twitter.com/justincc

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: OpenSim and Virtual Machines

R.Gunther
Only tried opensim in virtualbox (on windows :O ) with opensuse as guest.
But the biggest problem i see is the hdd speed. maby not enough cpu resources. assigned 2-3 cores.
But it where a bit more laggy. but linux is not the best choice for opensim anyway, so it maby could be mono to.

On 2014-02-21 07:37, John Sheridan wrote:
If you're looking to run your own hypervisor I'd suggest something called Proxmox.  Its open source / linux based and allows you to create both openvz and kvm containers via a nifty web interface.  Their website is https://pve.proxmox.com


On 02/21/2014 12:24 AM, Dahlia Trimble wrote:
I've used OpenSimulator in a variety of virtual machines, from KVM to OpenVZ to VirtualBox to EC2. In general performance is less than when running in bare hardware but everything usually works. I've seen some issues with timer accuracy in some virtual machines in the past and had to compile a custom linux kernel to get around it, but I think recent virtualization technology has probably fixed this. Some technologies like OpenVZ I found very difficult to work with in general and I prefer to stick with the KVM style approach where the host OS kernel is set up to allow a "closer to the metal" virtualization.

I think virtual machines are good for lower performance installations where fewer avatars and scripts are expected. and bare metal should be used where higher performance is needed.

Often hosting companies will oversell and you may get a lot less performance than you would expect from their advertised specifications. If performance is poor with one company, try others. The cheapest deal is usually far from the best.


On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Justin Clark-Casey <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've seen OpenSimulator run under different virtual machines (Xen and EC2).  Back a few years ago, there was a very odd issue when using EC2 where the simulator process wouldn't certain start context switching millions of times and freeze out all other processes, though that may have been a mono issue rather than EC2.

Other than that, it appears to work just fine as long as you give it sufficient CPU resources, as is the case when running on bare metal.


On 20/02/14 21:19, [hidden email] wrote:
Hi all

I wad wondering if anyone had much experience with running OpenSim under a
virtual machine? I'm interested in finding out what sort of performance
can be expected from running in that sort of environment and how far it
can be pushed without too many issues.

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
OSVW Consulting
http://justincc.org
http://twitter.com/justincc

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: OpenSim and Virtual Machines

Fleep Tuque
I don't have nearly as much experience or expertise with optimizing OpenSim as some of the folks who have already posted, but we did a fair bit of performance testing at UC trying to decide which approach was better, and in my experience the virtual machine route just didn't perform as well as running on physical hardware.

For something like a personal sandbox, or a small community grid where you don't expect much concurrency, it probably would work just fine.  For a full on grid hosting many projects or people, I personally wouldn't go with a vm route.

- Chris


Chris M. Collins (Avatar: Fleep Tuque)
Center for Simulations & Virtual Environments Research (UCSIM)
UCIT Research & Development, Innovation & Partnerships
UC Office of Information Technologies 
University of Cincinnati
400 University Hall
PO Box 210658
Cincinnati, OH 45221-0658
(513) 556-3018



On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 6:56 AM, R.Gunther <[hidden email]> wrote:
Only tried opensim in virtualbox (on windows :O ) with opensuse as guest.
But the biggest problem i see is the hdd speed. maby not enough cpu resources. assigned 2-3 cores.
But it where a bit more laggy. but linux is not the best choice for opensim anyway, so it maby could be mono to.


On 2014-02-21 07:37, John Sheridan wrote:
If you're looking to run your own hypervisor I'd suggest something called Proxmox.  Its open source / linux based and allows you to create both openvz and kvm containers via a nifty web interface.  Their website is https://pve.proxmox.com


On 02/21/2014 12:24 AM, Dahlia Trimble wrote:
I've used OpenSimulator in a variety of virtual machines, from KVM to OpenVZ to VirtualBox to EC2. In general performance is less than when running in bare hardware but everything usually works. I've seen some issues with timer accuracy in some virtual machines in the past and had to compile a custom linux kernel to get around it, but I think recent virtualization technology has probably fixed this. Some technologies like OpenVZ I found very difficult to work with in general and I prefer to stick with the KVM style approach where the host OS kernel is set up to allow a "closer to the metal" virtualization.

I think virtual machines are good for lower performance installations where fewer avatars and scripts are expected. and bare metal should be used where higher performance is needed.

Often hosting companies will oversell and you may get a lot less performance than you would expect from their advertised specifications. If performance is poor with one company, try others. The cheapest deal is usually far from the best.


On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Justin Clark-Casey <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've seen OpenSimulator run under different virtual machines (Xen and EC2).  Back a few years ago, there was a very odd issue when using EC2 where the simulator process wouldn't certain start context switching millions of times and freeze out all other processes, though that may have been a mono issue rather than EC2.

Other than that, it appears to work just fine as long as you give it sufficient CPU resources, as is the case when running on bare metal.


On 20/02/14 21:19, [hidden email] wrote:
Hi all

I wad wondering if anyone had much experience with running OpenSim under a
virtual machine? I'm interested in finding out what sort of performance
can be expected from running in that sort of environment and how far it
can be pushed without too many issues.

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
OSVW Consulting
http://justincc.org
http://twitter.com/justincc

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: OpenSim and Virtual Machines

Jeff Kelley
In reply to this post by R.Gunther
At 12:56 PM +0100 21/2/14, R.Gunther wrote:

>  linux is not the best choice for opensim anyway

Have we some performance figures of .NET versus MONO on a same hardware?


-- Jeff
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Re: OpenSim and Virtual Machines

Mike Chase
In reply to this post by Fleep Tuque
On 02/21/2014 07:04 AM, Fleep Tuque wrote:
I don't have nearly as much experience or expertise with optimizing OpenSim as some of the folks who have already posted, but we did a fair bit of performance testing at UC trying to decide which approach was better, and in my experience the virtual machine route just didn't perform as well as running on physical hardware.

For something like a personal sandbox, or a small community grid where you don't expect much concurrency, it probably would work just fine.  For a full on grid hosting many projects or people, I personally wouldn't go with a vm route.

- Chris

There is no reason why OpenSim on a correctly configured VM given enough resources shouldn;t perform as well as a physical machine.  Dahlia mentioned timer accuracy and that could be an issue but even then on any recent hardware the differences should be minimal.

If you are trying to use Linux I'd recommend the Mono 3.x codebase.  I'm finding its performance is significantly better.  That probably requires building by yourself although there is a ppa available for Ubuntu.

Mike



Chris M. Collins (Avatar: Fleep Tuque)
Center for Simulations & Virtual Environments Research (UCSIM)
UCIT Research & Development, Innovation & Partnerships
UC Office of Information Technologies 
University of Cincinnati
400 University Hall
PO Box 210658
Cincinnati, OH 45221-0658
(513) 556-3018



On Fri, Feb 21, 2014 at 6:56 AM, R.Gunther <[hidden email]> wrote:
Only tried opensim in virtualbox (on windows :O ) with opensuse as guest.
But the biggest problem i see is the hdd speed. maby not enough cpu resources. assigned 2-3 cores.
But it where a bit more laggy. but linux is not the best choice for opensim anyway, so it maby could be mono to.


On 2014-02-21 07:37, John Sheridan wrote:
If you're looking to run your own hypervisor I'd suggest something called Proxmox.  Its open source / linux based and allows you to create both openvz and kvm containers via a nifty web interface.  Their website is https://pve.proxmox.com


On 02/21/2014 12:24 AM, Dahlia Trimble wrote:
I've used OpenSimulator in a variety of virtual machines, from KVM to OpenVZ to VirtualBox to EC2. In general performance is less than when running in bare hardware but everything usually works. I've seen some issues with timer accuracy in some virtual machines in the past and had to compile a custom linux kernel to get around it, but I think recent virtualization technology has probably fixed this. Some technologies like OpenVZ I found very difficult to work with in general and I prefer to stick with the KVM style approach where the host OS kernel is set up to allow a "closer to the metal" virtualization.

I think virtual machines are good for lower performance installations where fewer avatars and scripts are expected. and bare metal should be used where higher performance is needed.

Often hosting companies will oversell and you may get a lot less performance than you would expect from their advertised specifications. If performance is poor with one company, try others. The cheapest deal is usually far from the best.


On Thu, Feb 20, 2014 at 2:48 PM, Justin Clark-Casey <[hidden email]> wrote:
I've seen OpenSimulator run under different virtual machines (Xen and EC2).  Back a few years ago, there was a very odd issue when using EC2 where the simulator process wouldn't certain start context switching millions of times and freeze out all other processes, though that may have been a mono issue rather than EC2.

Other than that, it appears to work just fine as long as you give it sufficient CPU resources, as is the case when running on bare metal.


On 20/02/14 21:19, [hidden email] wrote:
Hi all

I wad wondering if anyone had much experience with running OpenSim under a
virtual machine? I'm interested in finding out what sort of performance
can be expected from running in that sort of environment and how far it
can be pushed without too many issues.

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
OSVW Consulting
http://justincc.org
http://twitter.com/justincc

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: OpenSim and Virtual Machines

justincc
In reply to this post by Jeff Kelley
On 21/02/14 14:26, Jeff Kelley wrote:
> At 12:56 PM +0100 21/2/14, R.Gunther wrote:
>
>>  linux is not the best choice for opensim anyway
>
> Have we some performance figures of .NET versus MONO on a same hardware?

I don't think so - I'd be very interested in seeing some.

It certainly used to be the case that Mono performed significantly worse than .NET - perhaps not surprising since Mono
was a very young project when OpenSimulator started.  But I don't know how true that is nowadays, especially with Mono 3
which seems to be working well with OpenSimulator (though afaik, no major Linux distro has yet moved off 2.10).


--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
OSVW Consulting
http://justincc.org
http://twitter.com/justincc
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Re: OpenSim and Virtual Machines

M.E. Verhagen
There do not really seem to be benchmarks of performance graphs of mono versus .net.

It is true that both are way better optimized than years ago, so I would think both should get similar results with the same hardware and os.

VM performance can be heavly impacted by other software running on the same machine.

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