Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
17 messages Options
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

Michel DENIS
(cross-posted at a few places)

Hello,

We are setting up a server for enterprises and education, which will contain several models and applications, and will use both meshes and MOAP-based media and web entries.
While advanced users (admin and build) would use powerfull traditional Viewers in their native forms, the choice of default Viewer(s) is not easy for non-technical users/visitors.

These Viewer(s) should be:
- simple and user-friendly, straightforward to understand, configure and use
- modern in their look and manipulations

What would/do you use in such case ?

Thanks in advance for your feedback and advices,
-michel

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

justincc
On 20/03/13 17:41, Michel DENIS wrote:

> (cross-posted at a few places)
>
> Hello,
>
> We are setting up a server for enterprises and education, which will contain several models and applications, and will
> use both meshes and MOAP-based media and web entries.
> While advanced users (admin and build) would use powerfull traditional Viewers in their native forms, the choice of
> default Viewer(s) is not easy for non-technical users/visitors.
>
> These Viewer(s) should be:
> - simple and user-friendly, straightforward to understand, configure and use
> - modern in their look and manipulations
>
> What would/do you use in such case ?

Unfortunately, I think that currently power equates to viewer complexity, though maybe people will disagree with me on that.

The web-based viewer efforts are very interesting but I don't know how long it will be until they're ready for primetime
- could be quite a while.

I'm not sure I could express a preference since all the viewers seem complicated to me :), but one list for assessment
is at [1] if you've not already seen that.

[1] http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Compatible_Viewers

--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
OSVW Consulting
http://justincc.org
http://twitter.com/justincc
_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

Michel DENIS
Hello Justin,

Thank you for your feedback !

In the case these Viewers would still not be enough user-friendly or
non-mature enough, I was thinking "simplifying" one of these viewers, ie
taking code away from their source. Of course that creates a maintenance
issue, but we'd get a Viewer for Dummies or so !?
A couple of people seems having done that already.

What do you think ?

Thanks again,
-michel

Justin Clark-Casey wrote:

> Unfortunately, I think that currently power equates to viewer
> complexity, though maybe people will disagree with me on that.
>
> The web-based viewer efforts are very interesting but I don't know how
> long it will be until they're ready for primetime - could be quite a
> while.
>
> I'm not sure I could express a preference since all the viewers seem
> complicated to me :), but one list for assessment is at [1] if you've
> not already seen that.
>
> [1] http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Compatible_Viewers
>
_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

drwhiet@spacefriends.de
Why not use a modern viewer like Singularity with a old V1 interface .. This is why people still love up2date viewers with a simple GUI ..

Best regards
Worfromthe Wise

On 21.03.2013, at 11:41, Michel DENIS <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hello Justin,
>
> Thank you for your feedback !
>
> In the case these Viewers would still not be enough user-friendly or non-mature enough, I was thinking "simplifying" one of these viewers, ie taking code away from their source. Of course that creates a maintenance issue, but we'd get a Viewer for Dummies or so !?
> A couple of people seems having done that already.
>
> What do you think ?
>
> Thanks again,
> -michel
>
> Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
>> Unfortunately, I think that currently power equates to viewer complexity, though maybe people will disagree with me on that.
>>
>> The web-based viewer efforts are very interesting but I don't know how long it will be until they're ready for primetime - could be quite a while.
>>
>> I'm not sure I could express a preference since all the viewers seem complicated to me :), but one list for assessment is at [1] if you've not already seen that.
>>
>> [1] http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Compatible_Viewers
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

John Sheridan
If I may chime in - ultimate super awesome idealistic (and likely
pipe-dream) view of the future from my end.  Light weight web based
viewers that allow for just the basics such as rendering / movement,
basic inventory (changing of attachments, clothing, organization of
folders), joining / leaving of groups, and chat.  Heck, maybe even the
extras outside of rendering / movement could be left out of the viewer
component and added in as external pieces to the containing web page
which should in theory make a web viewer even more simplistic and light
weight.  For "power" users that need the full on facilities like
building / editing, groups management, land settings, estate settings,
and so on - use a regular installed viewer.

On 03/21/2013 01:25 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Why not use a modern viewer like Singularity with a old V1 interface .. This is why people still love up2date viewers with a simple GUI ..
>
> Best regards
> Worfromthe Wise
>
> On 21.03.2013, at 11:41, Michel DENIS <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> Hello Justin,
>>
>> Thank you for your feedback !
>>
>> In the case these Viewers would still not be enough user-friendly or non-mature enough, I was thinking "simplifying" one of these viewers, ie taking code away from their source. Of course that creates a maintenance issue, but we'd get a Viewer for Dummies or so !?
>> A couple of people seems having done that already.
>>
>> What do you think ?
>>
>> Thanks again,
>> -michel
>>
>> Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
>>> Unfortunately, I think that currently power equates to viewer complexity, though maybe people will disagree with me on that.
>>>
>>> The web-based viewer efforts are very interesting but I don't know how long it will be until they're ready for primetime - could be quite a while.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I could express a preference since all the viewers seem complicated to me :), but one list for assessment is at [1] if you've not already seen that.
>>>
>>> [1] http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Compatible_Viewers
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

scotto
In reply to this post by Michel DENIS
Are there any mobile viewers in existence for access via smartphones?

Cheers,
scotto...


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Michel DENIS <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Justin,

Thank you for your feedback !

In the case these Viewers would still not be enough user-friendly or non-mature enough, I was thinking "simplifying" one of these viewers, ie taking code away from their source. Of course that creates a maintenance issue, but we'd get a Viewer for Dummies or so !?
A couple of people seems having done that already.

What do you think ?

Thanks again,
-michel

Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
Unfortunately, I think that currently power equates to viewer complexity, though maybe people will disagree with me on that.

The web-based viewer efforts are very interesting but I don't know how long it will be until they're ready for primetime - could be quite a while.

I'm not sure I could express a preference since all the viewers seem complicated to me :), but one list for assessment is at [1] if you've not already seen that.

[1] http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Compatible_Viewers

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

Michael Emory Cerquoni
there is the Lumiya viewer for android, I do not think there is anything on iOS yet.

http://www.lumiyaviewer.com/

On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Scott Overmyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Are there any mobile viewers in existence for access via smartphones?

Cheers,
scotto...


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Michel DENIS <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Justin,

Thank you for your feedback !

In the case these Viewers would still not be enough user-friendly or non-mature enough, I was thinking "simplifying" one of these viewers, ie taking code away from their source. Of course that creates a maintenance issue, but we'd get a Viewer for Dummies or so !?
A couple of people seems having done that already.

What do you think ?

Thanks again,
-michel

Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
Unfortunately, I think that currently power equates to viewer complexity, though maybe people will disagree with me on that.

The web-based viewer efforts are very interesting but I don't know how long it will be until they're ready for primetime - could be quite a while.

I'm not sure I could express a preference since all the viewers seem complicated to me :), but one list for assessment is at [1] if you've not already seen that.

[1] http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Compatible_Viewers

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
Michael Emory Cerquoni
_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

justincc
In reply to this post by John Sheridan
Yeah, I would love to see a useable viewer which just did the basics and was ideally web-based (maybe with modular
options for extra complexity).  Ideally webgl - I know it's nowhere near the performance of a native client atm but like
it or not, the convenience of the web eats many things eventually (including this, imo).

But that could still be some way off.

On 21/03/13 17:58, John Sheridan wrote:

> If I may chime in - ultimate super awesome idealistic (and likely pipe-dream) view of the future from my end.  Light
> weight web based viewers that allow for just the basics such as rendering / movement, basic inventory (changing of
> attachments, clothing, organization of folders), joining / leaving of groups, and chat.  Heck, maybe even the extras
> outside of rendering / movement could be left out of the viewer component and added in as external pieces to the
> containing web page which should in theory make a web viewer even more simplistic and light weight.  For "power" users
> that need the full on facilities like building / editing, groups management, land settings, estate settings, and so on -
> use a regular installed viewer.
>
> On 03/21/2013 01:25 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>> Why not use a modern viewer like Singularity with a old V1 interface .. This is why people still love up2date viewers
>> with a simple GUI ..
>>
>> Best regards
>> Worfromthe Wise
>>
>> On 21.03.2013, at 11:41, Michel DENIS <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Justin,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your feedback !
>>>
>>> In the case these Viewers would still not be enough user-friendly or non-mature enough, I was thinking "simplifying"
>>> one of these viewers, ie taking code away from their source. Of course that creates a maintenance issue, but we'd get
>>> a Viewer for Dummies or so !?
>>> A couple of people seems having done that already.
>>>
>>> What do you think ?
>>>
>>> Thanks again,
>>> -michel
>>>
>>> Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
>>>> Unfortunately, I think that currently power equates to viewer complexity, though maybe people will disagree with me
>>>> on that.
>>>>
>>>> The web-based viewer efforts are very interesting but I don't know how long it will be until they're ready for
>>>> primetime - could be quite a while.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure I could express a preference since all the viewers seem complicated to me :), but one list for
>>>> assessment is at [1] if you've not already seen that.
>>>>
>>>> [1] http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Compatible_Viewers
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>


--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
OSVW Consulting
http://justincc.org
http://twitter.com/justincc
_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

scotto
In reply to this post by Michael Emory Cerquoni
I'm thinking about writing one for Windows Phones and might start with one of the opensource code bases.  Seem reasonable?


On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Nebadon Izumi <[hidden email]> wrote:
there is the Lumiya viewer for android, I do not think there is anything on iOS yet.

http://www.lumiyaviewer.com/

On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Scott Overmyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Are there any mobile viewers in existence for access via smartphones?

Cheers,
scotto...


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Michel DENIS <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Justin,

Thank you for your feedback !

In the case these Viewers would still not be enough user-friendly or non-mature enough, I was thinking "simplifying" one of these viewers, ie taking code away from their source. Of course that creates a maintenance issue, but we'd get a Viewer for Dummies or so !?
A couple of people seems having done that already.

What do you think ?

Thanks again,
-michel

Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
Unfortunately, I think that currently power equates to viewer complexity, though maybe people will disagree with me on that.

The web-based viewer efforts are very interesting but I don't know how long it will be until they're ready for primetime - could be quite a while.

I'm not sure I could express a preference since all the viewers seem complicated to me :), but one list for assessment is at [1] if you've not already seen that.

[1] http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Compatible_Viewers

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
Michael Emory Cerquoni

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

Michael Emory Cerquoni
Scott, you might be able to look at the code for what you need to do, but its highly unlikely any of the actual viewer code would work on Mobile devices, I am not even sure Windows phones can run C++ and OpenGL code, that would surprise me if it can, but i could very well be wrong there, even if they do its still unlikely much of the viewer code would be of any use on a ARM CPU hardware device, the best thing to do would be to talk to viewer devs, I suggest you look at Radegast viewer, that viewer will likely be closer to what would be on a Mobile device than the actual SL viewer would be.

http://radegast.org/wp/

On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Scott Overmyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm thinking about writing one for Windows Phones and might start with one of the opensource code bases.  Seem reasonable?


On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Nebadon Izumi <[hidden email]> wrote:
there is the Lumiya viewer for android, I do not think there is anything on iOS yet.

http://www.lumiyaviewer.com/

On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Scott Overmyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Are there any mobile viewers in existence for access via smartphones?

Cheers,
scotto...


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Michel DENIS <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Justin,

Thank you for your feedback !

In the case these Viewers would still not be enough user-friendly or non-mature enough, I was thinking "simplifying" one of these viewers, ie taking code away from their source. Of course that creates a maintenance issue, but we'd get a Viewer for Dummies or so !?
A couple of people seems having done that already.

What do you think ?

Thanks again,
-michel

Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
Unfortunately, I think that currently power equates to viewer complexity, though maybe people will disagree with me on that.

The web-based viewer efforts are very interesting but I don't know how long it will be until they're ready for primetime - could be quite a while.

I'm not sure I could express a preference since all the viewers seem complicated to me :), but one list for assessment is at [1] if you've not already seen that.

[1] http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Compatible_Viewers

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
Michael Emory Cerquoni

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
Michael Emory Cerquoni
_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

scotto
Thanks very much for the advice.  I'll take a look.  I can only imagine what a session would do to someone's roaming data bill. :-)

Cheers,
scotto...


On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Nebadon Izumi <[hidden email]> wrote:
Scott, you might be able to look at the code for what you need to do, but its highly unlikely any of the actual viewer code would work on Mobile devices, I am not even sure Windows phones can run C++ and OpenGL code, that would surprise me if it can, but i could very well be wrong there, even if they do its still unlikely much of the viewer code would be of any use on a ARM CPU hardware device, the best thing to do would be to talk to viewer devs, I suggest you look at Radegast viewer, that viewer will likely be closer to what would be on a Mobile device than the actual SL viewer would be.

http://radegast.org/wp/


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Scott Overmyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm thinking about writing one for Windows Phones and might start with one of the opensource code bases.  Seem reasonable?


On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 7:31 AM, Nebadon Izumi <[hidden email]> wrote:
there is the Lumiya viewer for android, I do not think there is anything on iOS yet.

http://www.lumiyaviewer.com/

On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Scott Overmyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Are there any mobile viewers in existence for access via smartphones?

Cheers,
scotto...


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Michel DENIS <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Justin,

Thank you for your feedback !

In the case these Viewers would still not be enough user-friendly or non-mature enough, I was thinking "simplifying" one of these viewers, ie taking code away from their source. Of course that creates a maintenance issue, but we'd get a Viewer for Dummies or so !?
A couple of people seems having done that already.

What do you think ?

Thanks again,
-michel

Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
Unfortunately, I think that currently power equates to viewer complexity, though maybe people will disagree with me on that.

The web-based viewer efforts are very interesting but I don't know how long it will be until they're ready for primetime - could be quite a while.

I'm not sure I could express a preference since all the viewers seem complicated to me :), but one list for assessment is at [1] if you've not already seen that.

[1] http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Compatible_Viewers

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
Michael Emory Cerquoni

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
Michael Emory Cerquoni

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

DZ-2
In reply to this post by Michel DENIS
I have tried a number of the "mobile" viewers..  The first workable one was Pocket Metaverse on IOS.   Since I stopped following that app, a "PRO" version has been released.    I have since moved to Android based mobile devices.   Justin correctly identified the android mobile viewer (Lumiya).  I have been using that viewer for a number of months,  The experience is not immersive  and interacting over a wireless connection is sometime frustrating compared to the power of my desktop.  There is a BIG HOWEVER...  Lumiya has worked reliably for me on my phones, on my tablets and with SL and OpenSim.   It doesn't do everything now, but releases are frequent and seem to be focused on adding features instead of fixing bugs..  In the Browser space, I have been seeing a lot of people pointing at PixieViewer.  I have only taken a cursory look at this option, since I am happy with my Android solution.  My impression was that it was a "cool thing"  but not really in the realm of a working tool yet.  I have to agree with Justin (and others) who see the webGL rendering as a possible future direction but not likely to be a "world changer" in the immediate future.  

Personally, I think that there are much more robust web technologies to "show folks" the inside of a virtual world.  It seems to me that the same amount of effort that you direct at getting user inworld on a web viewer  could be put into developing a sequence of video/web based how-to use a "real" viewer.   Think of it this way...  do you want someone to see your sim in a viewer that can render the surrounding 20 meters at a max texture resolution of 256x256,  or would you want to show them a YouTube of your sim rendered at HD resolution?    Even the Lindens ( who have trouble recognizing customer desires ) have learned that asking new users to download a new viewer every time they want a new feature is a non-starter.    If someone had shown me a ruth on an island in a web viewer when I started,, and i couldn't drop and modify a prim,  I wouldn't have spent the last years digging any deeper...  I would have said  OOOO another version of VRML with its disconnected toolsets...    The REAL differnce and advantage OpenSim has over any of your alternatives ( like Unity)  is that you can MODIFY yourself AND what is in the space around you..   I dont see how you will ever accomplish that with a web based UI.

d


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

scotto
My personal objective is not to show my OpenSIM in the best possible light, but rather to allow people to access the world via a mobile phone for conferencing, and other research/experimental activities in real time.

I do very much appreciate the info you posted on your experiences with mobile browsers!

Cheers,
scotto...


On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 9:15 AM, dz <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have tried a number of the "mobile" viewers..  The first workable one was Pocket Metaverse on IOS.   Since I stopped following that app, a "PRO" version has been released.    I have since moved to Android based mobile devices.   Justin correctly identified the android mobile viewer (Lumiya).  I have been using that viewer for a number of months,  The experience is not immersive  and interacting over a wireless connection is sometime frustrating compared to the power of my desktop.  There is a BIG HOWEVER...  Lumiya has worked reliably for me on my phones, on my tablets and with SL and OpenSim.   It doesn't do everything now, but releases are frequent and seem to be focused on adding features instead of fixing bugs..  In the Browser space, I have been seeing a lot of people pointing at PixieViewer.  I have only taken a cursory look at this option, since I am happy with my Android solution.  My impression was that it was a "cool thing"  but not really in the realm of a working tool yet.  I have to agree with Justin (and others) who see the webGL rendering as a possible future direction but not likely to be a "world changer" in the immediate future.  

Personally, I think that there are much more robust web technologies to "show folks" the inside of a virtual world.  It seems to me that the same amount of effort that you direct at getting user inworld on a web viewer  could be put into developing a sequence of video/web based how-to use a "real" viewer.   Think of it this way...  do you want someone to see your sim in a viewer that can render the surrounding 20 meters at a max texture resolution of 256x256,  or would you want to show them a YouTube of your sim rendered at HD resolution?    Even the Lindens ( who have trouble recognizing customer desires ) have learned that asking new users to download a new viewer every time they want a new feature is a non-starter.    If someone had shown me a ruth on an island in a web viewer when I started,, and i couldn't drop and modify a prim,  I wouldn't have spent the last years digging any deeper...  I would have said  OOOO another version of VRML with its disconnected toolsets...    The REAL differnce and advantage OpenSim has over any of your alternatives ( like Unity)  is that you can MODIFY yourself AND what is in the space around you..   I dont see how you will ever accomplish that with a web based UI.

d


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

Ovi Chris Rouly
In reply to this post by justincc
Justin,

I've tried to get support for this for (at least 3) years now ...  I even
offered to pay a bounty to get one written.  I contacted people on 3
continents.  And, I've given up hope.

Good luck mon ami!

<smile>

Chris
GMU
----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Clark-Casey" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:54 PM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end
users


> Yeah, I would love to see a useable viewer which just did the basics and
was ideally web-based (maybe with modular
> options for extra complexity).  Ideally webgl - I know it's nowhere near
the performance of a native client atm but like
> it or not, the convenience of the web eats many things eventually
(including this, imo).
>
> But that could still be some way off.
>
> On 21/03/13 17:58, John Sheridan wrote:
> > If I may chime in - ultimate super awesome idealistic (and likely
pipe-dream) view of the future from my end.  Light
> > weight web based viewers that allow for just the basics such as
rendering / movement, basic inventory (changing of
> > attachments, clothing, organization of folders), joining / leaving of
groups, and chat.  Heck, maybe even the extras
> > outside of rendering / movement could be left out of the viewer
component and added in as external pieces to the
> > containing web page which should in theory make a web viewer even more
simplistic and light weight.  For "power" users
> > that need the full on facilities like building / editing, groups
management, land settings, estate settings, and so on -
> > use a regular installed viewer.
> >
> > On 03/21/2013 01:25 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> >> Why not use a modern viewer like Singularity with a old V1 interface ..
This is why people still love up2date viewers

> >> with a simple GUI ..
> >>
> >> Best regards
> >> Worfromthe Wise
> >>
> >> On 21.03.2013, at 11:41, Michel DENIS <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hello Justin,
> >>>
> >>> Thank you for your feedback !
> >>>
> >>> In the case these Viewers would still not be enough user-friendly or
non-mature enough, I was thinking "simplifying"
> >>> one of these viewers, ie taking code away from their source. Of course
that creates a maintenance issue, but we'd get

> >>> a Viewer for Dummies or so !?
> >>> A couple of people seems having done that already.
> >>>
> >>> What do you think ?
> >>>
> >>> Thanks again,
> >>> -michel
> >>>
> >>> Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
> >>>> Unfortunately, I think that currently power equates to viewer
complexity, though maybe people will disagree with me
> >>>> on that.
> >>>>
> >>>> The web-based viewer efforts are very interesting but I don't know
how long it will be until they're ready for
> >>>> primetime - could be quite a while.
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm not sure I could express a preference since all the viewers seem
complicated to me :), but one list for

> >>>> assessment is at [1] if you've not already seen that.
> >>>>
> >>>> [1] http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Compatible_Viewers
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Opensim-users mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Opensim-users mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
>
>
> --
> Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
> OSVW Consulting
> http://justincc.org
> http://twitter.com/justincc
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

Robert L martin
In reply to this post by scotto
just sticking my paw in on this i would just about KILL for a viewer that

1 didn't try to load the entire region of stuff before being able to move around (a 50 meter sphere would be fine)

2 had a screen that was useable for small devices (my netbook has a 1024*600 screen)

3 was semi current with the LL codebase

4 while im dreaming here hows about a portable install?? (saves all of its data files in an internal folder)

Any takers?? heck having Gimp/Blender/Sim on a stick/Bad Wolf Viewer as a single download would be KILLER


On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 2:36 AM, Scott Overmyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
My personal objective is not to show my OpenSIM in the best possible light, but rather to allow people to access the world via a mobile phone for conferencing, and other research/experimental activities in real time.

I do very much appreciate the info you posted on your experiences with mobile browsers!

Cheers,
scotto...


On Fri, Mar 22, 2013 at 9:15 AM, dz <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have tried a number of the "mobile" viewers..  The first workable one was Pocket Metaverse on IOS.   Since I stopped following that app, a "PRO" version has been released.    I have since moved to Android based mobile devices.   Justin correctly identified the android mobile viewer (Lumiya).  I have been using that viewer for a number of months,  The experience is not immersive  and interacting over a wireless connection is sometime frustrating compared to the power of my desktop.  There is a BIG HOWEVER...  Lumiya has worked reliably for me on my phones, on my tablets and with SL and OpenSim.   It doesn't do everything now, but releases are frequent and seem to be focused on adding features instead of fixing bugs..  In the Browser space, I have been seeing a lot of people pointing at PixieViewer.  I have only taken a cursory look at this option, since I am happy with my Android solution.  My impression was that it was a "cool thing"  but not really in the realm of a working tool yet.  I have to agree with Justin (and others) who see the webGL rendering as a possible future direction but not likely to be a "world changer" in the immediate future.  

Personally, I think that there are much more robust web technologies to "show folks" the inside of a virtual world.  It seems to me that the same amount of effort that you direct at getting user inworld on a web viewer  could be put into developing a sequence of video/web based how-to use a "real" viewer.   Think of it this way...  do you want someone to see your sim in a viewer that can render the surrounding 20 meters at a max texture resolution of 256x256,  or would you want to show them a YouTube of your sim rendered at HD resolution?    Even the Lindens ( who have trouble recognizing customer desires ) have learned that asking new users to download a new viewer every time they want a new feature is a non-starter.    If someone had shown me a ruth on an island in a web viewer when I started,, and i couldn't drop and modify a prim,  I wouldn't have spent the last years digging any deeper...  I would have said  OOOO another version of VRML with its disconnected toolsets...    The REAL differnce and advantage OpenSim has over any of your alternatives ( like Unity)  is that you can MODIFY yourself AND what is in the space around you..   I dont see how you will ever accomplish that with a web based UI.

d


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
Robert L Martin

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

bertrand lebert
In reply to this post by Ovi Chris Rouly
Hello
We have the project in few weeks to work on it. So I see we have the same problem for meeting everyone.  Salutation Bertrand
Le 22 mars 2013 à 12:33, "Ovi Chris Rouly" <[hidden email]> a écrit :

> Justin,
>
> I've tried to get support for this for (at least 3) years now ...  I even
> offered to pay a bounty to get one written.  I contacted people on 3
> continents.  And, I've given up hope.
>
> Good luck mon ami!
>
> <smile>
>
> Chris
> GMU
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Justin Clark-Casey" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2013 8:54 PM
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end
> users
>
>
>> Yeah, I would love to see a useable viewer which just did the basics and
> was ideally web-based (maybe with modular
>> options for extra complexity).  Ideally webgl - I know it's nowhere near
> the performance of a native client atm but like
>> it or not, the convenience of the web eats many things eventually
> (including this, imo).
>>
>> But that could still be some way off.
>>
>> On 21/03/13 17:58, John Sheridan wrote:
>>> If I may chime in - ultimate super awesome idealistic (and likely
> pipe-dream) view of the future from my end.  Light
>>> weight web based viewers that allow for just the basics such as
> rendering / movement, basic inventory (changing of
>>> attachments, clothing, organization of folders), joining / leaving of
> groups, and chat.  Heck, maybe even the extras
>>> outside of rendering / movement could be left out of the viewer
> component and added in as external pieces to the
>>> containing web page which should in theory make a web viewer even more
> simplistic and light weight.  For "power" users
>>> that need the full on facilities like building / editing, groups
> management, land settings, estate settings, and so on -
>>> use a regular installed viewer.
>>>
>>> On 03/21/2013 01:25 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
>>>> Why not use a modern viewer like Singularity with a old V1 interface ..
> This is why people still love up2date viewers
>>>> with a simple GUI ..
>>>>
>>>> Best regards
>>>> Worfromthe Wise
>>>>
>>>> On 21.03.2013, at 11:41, Michel DENIS <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hello Justin,
>>>>>
>>>>> Thank you for your feedback !
>>>>>
>>>>> In the case these Viewers would still not be enough user-friendly or
> non-mature enough, I was thinking "simplifying"
>>>>> one of these viewers, ie taking code away from their source. Of course
> that creates a maintenance issue, but we'd get
>>>>> a Viewer for Dummies or so !?
>>>>> A couple of people seems having done that already.
>>>>>
>>>>> What do you think ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks again,
>>>>> -michel
>>>>>
>>>>> Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
>>>>>> Unfortunately, I think that currently power equates to viewer
> complexity, though maybe people will disagree with me
>>>>>> on that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The web-based viewer efforts are very interesting but I don't know
> how long it will be until they're ready for
>>>>>> primetime - could be quite a while.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm not sure I could express a preference since all the viewers seem
> complicated to me :), but one list for
>>>>>> assessment is at [1] if you've not already seen that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Compatible_Viewers
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
>> OSVW Consulting
>> http://justincc.org
>> http://twitter.com/justincc
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

Miller, Peter
In reply to this post by Michael Emory Cerquoni

FYI Alina Lyvette has done some groundwork on an iOS version of Lumiya.

 

Someone mentioned that building inworld might not be feasible for a web viewer. In fact, Pixieviewer already provides basic facilities for prim manipulation and texturing.

 

Best wishes

 

Peter

 


From: [hidden email] [[hidden email]] on behalf of Nebadon Izumi [[hidden email]]
Sent: 22 March 2013 01:31
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Opensim and accessibility by non-technical end users

there is the Lumiya viewer for android, I do not think there is anything on iOS yet.

http://www.lumiyaviewer.com/

On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 9:18 PM, Scott Overmyer <[hidden email]> wrote:
Are there any mobile viewers in existence for access via smartphones?

Cheers,
scotto...


On Thu, Mar 21, 2013 at 4:41 PM, Michel DENIS <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello Justin,

Thank you for your feedback !

In the case these Viewers would still not be enough user-friendly or non-mature enough, I was thinking "simplifying" one of these viewers, ie taking code away from their source. Of course that creates a maintenance issue, but we'd get a Viewer for Dummies or so !?
A couple of people seems having done that already.

What do you think ?

Thanks again,
-michel

Justin Clark-Casey wrote:
Unfortunately, I think that currently power equates to viewer complexity, though maybe people will disagree with me on that.

The web-based viewer efforts are very interesting but I don't know how long it will be until they're ready for primetime - could be quite a while.

I'm not sure I could express a preference since all the viewers seem complicated to me :), but one list for assessment is at [1] if you've not already seen that.

[1] http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Compatible_Viewers

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
Michael Emory Cerquoni

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users