Parcel Archiver?

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Parcel Archiver?

Robert Klein
We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory but what about a PAR for doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy way to dedicate one subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and out of OpenSims that either use the mega region or just have a single region that is subdivided. Also the beauty of this would be in the future if you have renters or event spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.

Command format could be "save/load par regionname parcelname parfilename.par" to either backup or load. Just a thought. :)

-Robert
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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Michael-9-3
Sounds like a handy feature to me. You might like to submit this as a feature suggestion on the OpenSimulator website at http://opensimulator.org/features/

Apropos of which, if a web admin over at the OpenSimulator.org site could clean out the spam in the feature voting page, that would be terrific. :)

Marcus Llewellyn

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Re: Parcel Archiver?

justincc
In reply to this post by Robert Klein
Robert Klein wrote:
> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory but what about a PAR for
> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy way to dedicate one
> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and out of OpenSims that
> either use the mega region or just have a single region that is subdivided.
> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if you have renters or event
> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.

I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean.  Are you talking about
archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a region?

--
justincc
Justin Clark-Casey
http://justincc.org
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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Robert Klein
Hey Justin,

Yes that is correct, just archive a single parcel on a region. Whatever is in the parcel gets put into the PAR file. Can it be done?

-Robert

justincc wrote
Robert Klein wrote:
> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory but what about a PAR for
> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy way to dedicate one
> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and out of OpenSims that
> either use the mega region or just have a single region that is subdivided.
> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if you have renters or event
> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.

I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean.  Are you talking about
archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a region?

--
justincc
Justin Clark-Casey
http://justincc.org
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Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Robert Klein
Now that I think about it, there would need to be an option for listing the PAR file's size like "load par filename info" and it prints out some basic relative info like "The PAR filename is 128 128 meters." so if you were receiving it from someone else (or you forgot) you would know how big to make the target restore parcel. Not sure how you would deal with the terrain other than ignoring it and just placing only items. I would think keeping the terrain info would be valuable though. Any other thoughts?

-Robert

Robert Klein wrote
Hey Justin,

Yes that is correct, just archive a single parcel on a region. Whatever is in the parcel gets put into the PAR file. Can it be done?

-Robert

justincc wrote
Robert Klein wrote:
> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory but what about a PAR for
> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy way to dedicate one
> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and out of OpenSims that
> either use the mega region or just have a single region that is subdivided.
> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if you have renters or event
> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.

I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean.  Are you talking about
archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a region?

--
justincc
Justin Clark-Casey
http://justincc.org
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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Karen_Palen
In reply to this post by Robert Klein
Just a thought, but with the economics of OpenSim being totally different from Second Life, I wonder if we will end up with hundreds of tiny parcels in each region?

It seems to me that there are several issues here concerning changes in parcel size/location between backup and restore as well as some ownership/covenant/zoning issues.

As I think about the problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can fully articulate even the nature of those issues since they depend heavily on the direction that OpenSim development and implementation takes.

Just the same we do need to consider them as best we can lest we fall into some of the same traps as Second Life (content ownership, banking debacle, and gambling come to mind).

Karen

--- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
>
> Hey Justin,
>
> Yes that is correct, just archive a single parcel on a
> region. Whatever is
> in the parcel gets put into the PAR file. Can it be done?
>
> -Robert
>
>
> justincc wrote:
> >
> > Robert Klein wrote:
> >> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory
> but what about a PAR
> >> for
> >> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy
> way to dedicate one
> >> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and
> out of OpenSims that
> >> either use the mega region or just have a single
> region that is
> >> subdivided.
> >> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if
> you have renters or
> >> event
> >> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.
>
> >
> > I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean. 
> Are you talking about
> > archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a
> region?
> >
> > --
> > justincc
> > Justin Clark-Casey
> > http://justincc.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>


     
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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Len W. Brown
I am tempted to say that individual parcel backups is not a good idea.  If one is building on a parcel, as opposed to a full region, then simply maintaining copies of their items in their inventory should be adequate.

Parcels come in so many sizes and making a backup would require the new parcel for a restore would have to be identical in dimensions.  So this can be very complex if you have a parcel that, for example, lies along a road so the side of your parcel is angular.  Or if you have an odd-shaped parcel or a combination of parcels that are separated by other parcels you do not own.

Backing up a region is simple enough given the standard dimensions, even when dealing with megaregions, which are really just a combination of multiple "regular" regions of standard size.

So I feel that backing up personal parcels should remain the process of maintaining items in your personal inventory and making a backup of THAT rather than the parcel area itself.

- Len W. Brown
     [hidden email]

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Karen Palen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Just a thought, but with the economics of OpenSim being totally different from Second Life, I wonder if we will end up with hundreds of tiny parcels in each region?

It seems to me that there are several issues here concerning changes in parcel size/location between backup and restore as well as some ownership/covenant/zoning issues.

As I think about the problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can fully articulate even the nature of those issues since they depend heavily on the direction that OpenSim development and implementation takes.

Just the same we do need to consider them as best we can lest we fall into some of the same traps as Second Life (content ownership, banking debacle, and gambling come to mind).

Karen

--- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
>
> Hey Justin,
>
> Yes that is correct, just archive a single parcel on a
> region. Whatever is
> in the parcel gets put into the PAR file. Can it be done?
>
> -Robert
>
>
> justincc wrote:
> >
> > Robert Klein wrote:
> >> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory
> but what about a PAR
> >> for
> >> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy
> way to dedicate one
> >> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and
> out of OpenSims that
> >> either use the mega region or just have a single
> region that is
> >> subdivided.
> >> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if
> you have renters or
> >> event
> >> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.
>
> >
> > I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean. 
> Are you talking about
> > archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a
> region?
> >
> > --
> > justincc
> > Justin Clark-Casey
> > http://justincc.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>



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[hidden email]
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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Stefan Andersson-3

One way to go about it could be to make sure the oar is subdivided into parcels when storing it; if so, one would probably backup the whole oar, but be able to restore only parts of the oar.

 

I have only used oars for full backup, so I don’t know if the parcel info is already stored in it?

 

/Stefan

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Len Brown
Sent: den 21 november 2009 09:20
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?

 

I am tempted to say that individual parcel backups is not a good idea.  If one is building on a parcel, as opposed to a full region, then simply maintaining copies of their items in their inventory should be adequate.

Parcels come in so many sizes and making a backup would require the new parcel for a restore would have to be identical in dimensions.  So this can be very complex if you have a parcel that, for example, lies along a road so the side of your parcel is angular.  Or if you have an odd-shaped parcel or a combination of parcels that are separated by other parcels you do not own.

Backing up a region is simple enough given the standard dimensions, even when dealing with megaregions, which are really just a combination of multiple "regular" regions of standard size.

So I feel that backing up personal parcels should remain the process of maintaining items in your personal inventory and making a backup of THAT rather than the parcel area itself.

- Len W. Brown
     [hidden email]

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Karen Palen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Just a thought, but with the economics of OpenSim being totally different from Second Life, I wonder if we will end up with hundreds of tiny parcels in each region?

It seems to me that there are several issues here concerning changes in parcel size/location between backup and restore as well as some ownership/covenant/zoning issues.

As I think about the problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can fully articulate even the nature of those issues since they depend heavily on the direction that OpenSim development and implementation takes.

Just the same we do need to consider them as best we can lest we fall into some of the same traps as Second Life (content ownership, banking debacle, and gambling come to mind).

Karen

--- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
>
> Hey Justin,
>
> Yes that is correct, just archive a single parcel on a
> region. Whatever is
> in the parcel gets put into the PAR file. Can it be done?
>
> -Robert

>
>
> justincc wrote:
> >
> > Robert Klein wrote:
> >> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory
> but what about a PAR
> >> for
> >> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy
> way to dedicate one
> >> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and
> out of OpenSims that
> >> either use the mega region or just have a single
> region that is
> >> subdivided.
> >> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if
> you have renters or
> >> event
> >> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.
>
> >
> > I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean. 
> Are you talking about
> > archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a
> region?
> >
> > --
> > justincc
> > Justin Clark-Casey
> > http://justincc.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> >
>

> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.

> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>



_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

 


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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Robert Klein
I see your points and was only suggesting we have some refined way of backing up regions instead of either all or nothing. Even a basic program for backing up data on a computer allows you to backup either the whole disk, individual directories, and individual files (tar vs dd for example). We have methods for backing up the whole drive and individual files but not directories. It just seems unbalanced.

I have seen some pretty intense builds in SL and OS on relatively small parcels that would be a huge issue to recreate. The IAR files are great but are not a reasonable method for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128 parcel with several buildings full of content including a museum and stage/events area or a nightclub. Experience tells me we are going to need this if we continue to support the concept of having parcels.

-Robert

Stefan Andersson-3 wrote
One way to go about it could be to make sure the oar is subdivided into
parcels when storing it; if so, one would probably backup the whole oar, but
be able to restore only parts of the oar.

 

I have only used oars for full backup, so I don't know if the parcel info is
already stored in it?

 

/Stefan

 

From: opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de
[mailto:opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Len Brown
Sent: den 21 november 2009 09:20
To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?

 

I am tempted to say that individual parcel backups is not a good idea.  If
one is building on a parcel, as opposed to a full region, then simply
maintaining copies of their items in their inventory should be adequate.

Parcels come in so many sizes and making a backup would require the new
parcel for a restore would have to be identical in dimensions.  So this can
be very complex if you have a parcel that, for example, lies along a road so
the side of your parcel is angular.  Or if you have an odd-shaped parcel or
a combination of parcels that are separated by other parcels you do not own.

Backing up a region is simple enough given the standard dimensions, even
when dealing with megaregions, which are really just a combination of
multiple "regular" regions of standard size.

So I feel that backing up personal parcels should remain the process of
maintaining items in your personal inventory and making a backup of THAT
rather than the parcel area itself.

- Len W. Brown
     lenwbrown@gmail.com

On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Karen Palen <karen_palen@yahoo.com> wrote:

Just a thought, but with the economics of OpenSim being totally different
from Second Life, I wonder if we will end up with hundreds of tiny parcels
in each region?

It seems to me that there are several issues here concerning changes in
parcel size/location between backup and restore as well as some
ownership/covenant/zoning issues.

As I think about the problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can fully
articulate even the nature of those issues since they depend heavily on the
direction that OpenSim development and implementation takes.

Just the same we do need to consider them as best we can lest we fall into
some of the same traps as Second Life (content ownership, banking debacle,
and gambling come to mind).

Karen

--- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Klein <rtkwebman@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Robert Klein <rtkwebman@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
>
> Hey Justin,
>
> Yes that is correct, just archive a single parcel on a
> region. Whatever is
> in the parcel gets put into the PAR file. Can it be done?
>
> -Robert

>
>
> justincc wrote:
> >
> > Robert Klein wrote:
> >> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory
> but what about a PAR
> >> for
> >> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy
> way to dedicate one
> >> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and
> out of OpenSims that
> >> either use the mega region or just have a single
> region that is
> >> subdivided.
> >> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if
> you have renters or
> >> event
> >> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.
>
> >
> > I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean.
> Are you talking about
> > archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a
> region?
> >
> > --
> > justincc
> > Justin Clark-Casey
> > http://justincc.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> >
>

> --
> View this message in context:
http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.

> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>



_______________________________________________
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https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

 


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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Stefan Andersson-3
There is of course always the option to implement a region module that can
implement some fairly more detailed use case, maybe connecting to stuff like
scheduled jobs et c.

/Stefan

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [hidden email] [mailto:opensim-users-
> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert Klein
> Sent: den 21 november 2009 15:24
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>
>
> I see your points and was only suggesting we have some refined way of
> backing
> up regions instead of either all or nothing. Even a basic program for
> backing up data on a computer allows you to backup either the whole
> disk,
> individual directories, and individual files (tar vs dd for example).
> We
> have methods for backing up the whole drive and individual files but
> not
> directories. It just seems unbalanced.
>
> I have seen some pretty intense builds in SL and OS on relatively small
> parcels that would be a huge issue to recreate. The IAR files are great
> but
> are not a reasonable method for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128
> parcel
> with several buildings full of content including a museum and
> stage/events
> area or a nightclub. Experience tells me we are going to need this if
> we
> continue to support the concept of having parcels.
>
> -Robert
>
>
> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote:
> >
> > One way to go about it could be to make sure the oar is subdivided
> into
> > parcels when storing it; if so, one would probably backup the whole
> oar,
> > but
> > be able to restore only parts of the oar.
> >
> >
> >
> > I have only used oars for full backup, so I don't know if the parcel
> info
> > is
> > already stored in it?
> >
> >
> >
> > /Stefan
> >
> >
> >
> > From: [hidden email]
> > [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Len
> Brown
> > Sent: den 21 november 2009 09:20
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >
> >
> >
> > I am tempted to say that individual parcel backups is not a good
> idea.  If
> > one is building on a parcel, as opposed to a full region, then simply
> > maintaining copies of their items in their inventory should be
> adequate.
> >
> > Parcels come in so many sizes and making a backup would require the
> new
> > parcel for a restore would have to be identical in dimensions.  So
> this
> > can
> > be very complex if you have a parcel that, for example, lies along a
> road
> > so
> > the side of your parcel is angular.  Or if you have an odd-shaped
> parcel
> > or
> > a combination of parcels that are separated by other parcels you do
> not
> > own.
> >
> > Backing up a region is simple enough given the standard dimensions,
> even
> > when dealing with megaregions, which are really just a combination of
> > multiple "regular" regions of standard size.
> >
> > So I feel that backing up personal parcels should remain the process
> of
> > maintaining items in your personal inventory and making a backup of
> THAT
> > rather than the parcel area itself.
> >
> > - Len W. Brown
> >      [hidden email]
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Just a thought, but with the economics of OpenSim being totally
> different
> > from Second Life, I wonder if we will end up with hundreds of tiny
> parcels
> > in each region?
> >
> > It seems to me that there are several issues here concerning changes
> in
> > parcel size/location between backup and restore as well as some
> > ownership/covenant/zoning issues.
> >
> > As I think about the problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can
> fully
> > articulate even the nature of those issues since they depend heavily
> on
> > the
> > direction that OpenSim development and implementation takes.
> >
> > Just the same we do need to consider them as best we can lest we fall
> into
> > some of the same traps as Second Life (content ownership, banking
> debacle,
> > and gambling come to mind).
> >
> > Karen
> >
> > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
> >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
> >>
> >> Hey Justin,
> >>
> >> Yes that is correct, just archive a single parcel on a
> >> region. Whatever is
> >> in the parcel gets put into the PAR file. Can it be done?
> >>
> >> -Robert
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> justincc wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Robert Klein wrote:
> >> >> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory
> >> but what about a PAR
> >> >> for
> >> >> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy
> >> way to dedicate one
> >> >> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and
> >> out of OpenSims that
> >> >> either use the mega region or just have a single
> >> region that is
> >> >> subdivided.
> >> >> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if
> >> you have renters or
> >> >> event
> >> >> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.
> >>
> >> >
> >> > I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean.
> >> Are you talking about
> >> > archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a
> >> region?
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > justincc
> >> > Justin Clark-Casey
> >> > http://justincc.org
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Opensim-users mailing list
> >> > [hidden email]
> >> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >> --
> >> View this message in context:
> > http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
> >> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at
> >> Nabble.com.
> >
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Opensim-users mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-
> tp4008165p4042739.html
> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Diva Canto
There are several kinds of filters one could add to the general
archiving facility. Parcels... why not. Another one -- more important to
me -- is owner id.

Stefan Andersson wrote:

> There is of course always the option to implement a region module that can
> implement some fairly more detailed use case, maybe connecting to stuff like
> scheduled jobs et c.
>
> /Stefan
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [hidden email] [mailto:opensim-users-
>> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert Klein
>> Sent: den 21 november 2009 15:24
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>>
>>
>> I see your points and was only suggesting we have some refined way of
>> backing
>> up regions instead of either all or nothing. Even a basic program for
>> backing up data on a computer allows you to backup either the whole
>> disk,
>> individual directories, and individual files (tar vs dd for example).
>> We
>> have methods for backing up the whole drive and individual files but
>> not
>> directories. It just seems unbalanced.
>>
>> I have seen some pretty intense builds in SL and OS on relatively small
>> parcels that would be a huge issue to recreate. The IAR files are great
>> but
>> are not a reasonable method for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128
>> parcel
>> with several buildings full of content including a museum and
>> stage/events
>> area or a nightclub. Experience tells me we are going to need this if
>> we
>> continue to support the concept of having parcels.
>>
>> -Robert
>>
>>
>> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote:
>>> One way to go about it could be to make sure the oar is subdivided
>> into
>>> parcels when storing it; if so, one would probably backup the whole
>> oar,
>>> but
>>> be able to restore only parts of the oar.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have only used oars for full backup, so I don't know if the parcel
>> info
>>> is
>>> already stored in it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> /Stefan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: [hidden email]
>>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Len
>> Brown
>>> Sent: den 21 november 2009 09:20
>>> To: [hidden email]
>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am tempted to say that individual parcel backups is not a good
>> idea.  If
>>> one is building on a parcel, as opposed to a full region, then simply
>>> maintaining copies of their items in their inventory should be
>> adequate.
>>> Parcels come in so many sizes and making a backup would require the
>> new
>>> parcel for a restore would have to be identical in dimensions.  So
>> this
>>> can
>>> be very complex if you have a parcel that, for example, lies along a
>> road
>>> so
>>> the side of your parcel is angular.  Or if you have an odd-shaped
>> parcel
>>> or
>>> a combination of parcels that are separated by other parcels you do
>> not
>>> own.
>>>
>>> Backing up a region is simple enough given the standard dimensions,
>> even
>>> when dealing with megaregions, which are really just a combination of
>>> multiple "regular" regions of standard size.
>>>
>>> So I feel that backing up personal parcels should remain the process
>> of
>>> maintaining items in your personal inventory and making a backup of
>> THAT
>>> rather than the parcel area itself.
>>>
>>> - Len W. Brown
>>>      [hidden email]
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just a thought, but with the economics of OpenSim being totally
>> different
>>> from Second Life, I wonder if we will end up with hundreds of tiny
>> parcels
>>> in each region?
>>>
>>> It seems to me that there are several issues here concerning changes
>> in
>>> parcel size/location between backup and restore as well as some
>>> ownership/covenant/zoning issues.
>>>
>>> As I think about the problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can
>> fully
>>> articulate even the nature of those issues since they depend heavily
>> on
>>> the
>>> direction that OpenSim development and implementation takes.
>>>
>>> Just the same we do need to consider them as best we can lest we fall
>> into
>>> some of the same traps as Second Life (content ownership, banking
>> debacle,
>>> and gambling come to mind).
>>>
>>> Karen
>>>
>>> --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
>>>>
>>>> Hey Justin,
>>>>
>>>> Yes that is correct, just archive a single parcel on a
>>>> region. Whatever is
>>>> in the parcel gets put into the PAR file. Can it be done?
>>>>
>>>> -Robert
>>>>
>>>> justincc wrote:
>>>>> Robert Klein wrote:
>>>>>> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory
>>>> but what about a PAR
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy
>>>> way to dedicate one
>>>>>> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and
>>>> out of OpenSims that
>>>>>> either use the mega region or just have a single
>>>> region that is
>>>>>> subdivided.
>>>>>> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if
>>>> you have renters or
>>>>>> event
>>>>>> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.
>>>>> I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean.
>>>> Are you talking about
>>>>> archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a
>>>> region?
>>>>> --
>>>>> justincc
>>>>> Justin Clark-Casey
>>>>> http://justincc.org
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>>>> [hidden email]
>>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
>>>> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at
>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>>> [hidden email]
>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-
>> tp4008165p4042739.html
>> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Robert Klein
Hmm, that is an interesting point Diva, adding options to the current "save oar" is an excellent idea. It would be pretty cool to add an additional tab to the Hippo Viewer About Land that gives an owner or estate manager the ability to "dump an oar" or "load an oar" for the selected parcel.

-Robert

Diva Canto wrote
There are several kinds of filters one could add to the general
archiving facility. Parcels... why not. Another one -- more important to
me -- is owner id.

Stefan Andersson wrote:
> There is of course always the option to implement a region module that can
> implement some fairly more detailed use case, maybe connecting to stuff like
> scheduled jobs et c.
>
> /Stefan
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-users-
>> bounces@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Robert Klein
>> Sent: den 21 november 2009 15:24
>> To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>>
>>
>> I see your points and was only suggesting we have some refined way of
>> backing
>> up regions instead of either all or nothing. Even a basic program for
>> backing up data on a computer allows you to backup either the whole
>> disk,
>> individual directories, and individual files (tar vs dd for example).
>> We
>> have methods for backing up the whole drive and individual files but
>> not
>> directories. It just seems unbalanced.
>>
>> I have seen some pretty intense builds in SL and OS on relatively small
>> parcels that would be a huge issue to recreate. The IAR files are great
>> but
>> are not a reasonable method for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128
>> parcel
>> with several buildings full of content including a museum and
>> stage/events
>> area or a nightclub. Experience tells me we are going to need this if
>> we
>> continue to support the concept of having parcels.
>>
>> -Robert
>>
>>
>> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote:
>>> One way to go about it could be to make sure the oar is subdivided
>> into
>>> parcels when storing it; if so, one would probably backup the whole
>> oar,
>>> but
>>> be able to restore only parts of the oar.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have only used oars for full backup, so I don't know if the parcel
>> info
>>> is
>>> already stored in it?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> /Stefan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de
>>> [mailto:opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Len
>> Brown
>>> Sent: den 21 november 2009 09:20
>>> To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am tempted to say that individual parcel backups is not a good
>> idea.  If
>>> one is building on a parcel, as opposed to a full region, then simply
>>> maintaining copies of their items in their inventory should be
>> adequate.
>>> Parcels come in so many sizes and making a backup would require the
>> new
>>> parcel for a restore would have to be identical in dimensions.  So
>> this
>>> can
>>> be very complex if you have a parcel that, for example, lies along a
>> road
>>> so
>>> the side of your parcel is angular.  Or if you have an odd-shaped
>> parcel
>>> or
>>> a combination of parcels that are separated by other parcels you do
>> not
>>> own.
>>>
>>> Backing up a region is simple enough given the standard dimensions,
>> even
>>> when dealing with megaregions, which are really just a combination of
>>> multiple "regular" regions of standard size.
>>>
>>> So I feel that backing up personal parcels should remain the process
>> of
>>> maintaining items in your personal inventory and making a backup of
>> THAT
>>> rather than the parcel area itself.
>>>
>>> - Len W. Brown
>>>      lenwbrown@gmail.com
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Karen Palen <karen_palen@yahoo.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Just a thought, but with the economics of OpenSim being totally
>> different
>>> from Second Life, I wonder if we will end up with hundreds of tiny
>> parcels
>>> in each region?
>>>
>>> It seems to me that there are several issues here concerning changes
>> in
>>> parcel size/location between backup and restore as well as some
>>> ownership/covenant/zoning issues.
>>>
>>> As I think about the problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can
>> fully
>>> articulate even the nature of those issues since they depend heavily
>> on
>>> the
>>> direction that OpenSim development and implementation takes.
>>>
>>> Just the same we do need to consider them as best we can lest we fall
>> into
>>> some of the same traps as Second Life (content ownership, banking
>> debacle,
>>> and gambling come to mind).
>>>
>>> Karen
>>>
>>> --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Klein <rtkwebman@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> From: Robert Klein <rtkwebman@gmail.com>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>>>> To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>>>> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
>>>>
>>>> Hey Justin,
>>>>
>>>> Yes that is correct, just archive a single parcel on a
>>>> region. Whatever is
>>>> in the parcel gets put into the PAR file. Can it be done?
>>>>
>>>> -Robert
>>>>
>>>> justincc wrote:
>>>>> Robert Klein wrote:
>>>>>> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory
>>>> but what about a PAR
>>>>>> for
>>>>>> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy
>>>> way to dedicate one
>>>>>> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and
>>>> out of OpenSims that
>>>>>> either use the mega region or just have a single
>>>> region that is
>>>>>> subdivided.
>>>>>> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if
>>>> you have renters or
>>>>>> event
>>>>>> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.
>>>>> I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean.
>>>> Are you talking about
>>>>> archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a
>>>> region?
>>>>> --
>>>>> justincc
>>>>> Justin Clark-Casey
>>>>> http://justincc.org
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>>>> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> View this message in context:
>>> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
>>>> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at
>>>> Nabble.com.
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>>> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>
>>>
>> --
>> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-
>> tp4008165p4042739.html
>> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Karen_Palen
In reply to this post by Diva Canto
I agree that the filtering approach seems to be a good one.

The "owner id" would need to be fairly complex though - owner of the objects, owner or the parcel, creator rights etc.

Karen

--- On Sat, 11/21/09, [hidden email] <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: [hidden email] <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 8:51 AM
> There are several kinds of filters
> one could add to the general
> archiving facility. Parcels... why not. Another one -- more
> important to
> me -- is owner id.
>
> Stefan Andersson wrote:
> > There is of course always the option to implement a
> region module that can
> > implement some fairly more detailed use case, maybe
> connecting to stuff like
> > scheduled jobs et c.
> >
> > /Stefan
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:opensim-users-
> >> [hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Robert Klein
> >> Sent: den 21 november 2009 15:24
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >>
> >>
> >> I see your points and was only suggesting we have
> some refined way of
> >> backing
> >> up regions instead of either all or nothing. Even
> a basic program for
> >> backing up data on a computer allows you to backup
> either the whole
> >> disk,
> >> individual directories, and individual files (tar
> vs dd for example).
> >> We
> >> have methods for backing up the whole drive and
> individual files but
> >> not
> >> directories. It just seems unbalanced.
> >>
> >> I have seen some pretty intense builds in SL and
> OS on relatively small
> >> parcels that would be a huge issue to recreate.
> The IAR files are great
> >> but
> >> are not a reasonable method for backing up and
> restoring a 64 x 128
> >> parcel
> >> with several buildings full of content including a
> museum and
> >> stage/events
> >> area or a nightclub. Experience tells me we are
> going to need this if
> >> we
> >> continue to support the concept of having
> parcels.
> >>
> >> -Robert
> >>
> >>
> >> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote:
> >>> One way to go about it could be to make sure
> the oar is subdivided
> >> into
> >>> parcels when storing it; if so, one would
> probably backup the whole
> >> oar,
> >>> but
> >>> be able to restore only parts of the oar.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I have only used oars for full backup, so I
> don't know if the parcel
> >> info
> >>> is
> >>> already stored in it?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> /Stefan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: [hidden email]
> >>> [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Len
> >> Brown
> >>> Sent: den 21 november 2009 09:20
> >>> To: [hidden email]
> >>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I am tempted to say that individual parcel
> backups is not a good
> >> idea.  If
> >>> one is building on a parcel, as opposed to a
> full region, then simply
> >>> maintaining copies of their items in their
> inventory should be
> >> adequate.
> >>> Parcels come in so many sizes and making a
> backup would require the
> >> new
> >>> parcel for a restore would have to be
> identical in dimensions.  So
> >> this
> >>> can
> >>> be very complex if you have a parcel that, for
> example, lies along a
> >> road
> >>> so
> >>> the side of your parcel is angular.  Or
> if you have an odd-shaped
> >> parcel
> >>> or
> >>> a combination of parcels that are separated by
> other parcels you do
> >> not
> >>> own.
> >>>
> >>> Backing up a region is simple enough given the
> standard dimensions,
> >> even
> >>> when dealing with megaregions, which are
> really just a combination of
> >>> multiple "regular" regions of standard size.
> >>>
> >>> So I feel that backing up personal parcels
> should remain the process
> >> of
> >>> maintaining items in your personal inventory
> and making a backup of
> >> THAT
> >>> rather than the parcel area itself.
> >>>
> >>> - Len W. Brown
> >>>      [hidden email]
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Karen Palen
> <[hidden email]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Just a thought, but with the economics of
> OpenSim being totally
> >> different
> >>> from Second Life, I wonder if we will end up
> with hundreds of tiny
> >> parcels
> >>> in each region?
> >>>
> >>> It seems to me that there are several issues
> here concerning changes
> >> in
> >>> parcel size/location between backup and
> restore as well as some
> >>> ownership/covenant/zoning issues.
> >>>
> >>> As I think about the problem I am not sure I
> (or anyone else) can
> >> fully
> >>> articulate even the nature of those issues
> since they depend heavily
> >> on
> >>> the
> >>> direction that OpenSim development and
> implementation takes.
> >>>
> >>> Just the same we do need to consider them as
> best we can lest we fall
> >> into
> >>> some of the same traps as Second Life (content
> ownership, banking
> >> debacle,
> >>> and gambling come to mind).
> >>>
> >>> Karen
> >>>
> >>> --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel
> Archiver?
> >>>> To: [hidden email]
> >>>> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
> >>>>
> >>>> Hey Justin,
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes that is correct, just archive a single
> parcel on a
> >>>> region. Whatever is
> >>>> in the parcel gets put into the PAR file.
> Can it be done?
> >>>>
> >>>> -Robert
> >>>>
> >>>> justincc wrote:
> >>>>> Robert Klein wrote:
> >>>>>> We have a OAR for regions and a
> IAR for inventory
> >>>> but what about a PAR
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> doing parcel area archiving? It
> would be an easy
> >>>> way to dedicate one
> >>>>>> subdivided parcel area for
> bringing things in and
> >>>> out of OpenSims that
> >>>>>> either use the mega region or just
> have a single
> >>>> region that is
> >>>>>> subdivided.
> >>>>>> Also the beauty of this would be
> in the future if
> >>>> you have renters or
> >>>>>> event
> >>>>>> spaces you can keep backups of
> just those spaces.
> >>>>> I'm not too sure if I get exactly what
> you mean.
> >>>> Are you talking about
> >>>>> archiving just the contents of a
> single parcel on a
> >>>> region?
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> justincc
> >>>>> Justin Clark-Casey
> >>>>> http://justincc.org
> >>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> View this message in context:
> >>> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
> >>>> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list
> archive at
> >>>> Nabble.com.
> >>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Opensim-users mailing list
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> Opensim-users mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>> Opensim-users mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-
> >> tp4008165p4042739.html
> >> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive
> at Nabble.com.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Opensim-users mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>


     
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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Bob Wellman
In reply to this post by Diva Canto
I agree with Diva it would be good if on Save_oar we could specify owner-id and then the saved file would only contain prims owned by that user. However it needs to be part of a bigger change I think in trems of loading oar being less all or nothing too.
 
One of the problems with LOAD_OAR at present is the way it replaces everything in a sim. It would be good if there were an option to replace or add to whats in a sim already with whats on the file being loaded. Maybe the replace/add options could be filtered to replace only parts of the build (eg. replace Nicks prims with the new oar of Nicks prims leaving Toms prims where they are).
 
The use case I am thinking of is where a sim (a city) is built by the sim owner (Nick) in a standalone grid and loaded via OAR files to a public grid. Then in that public grid other people (Tom) adds furnishings to the sim in the public grid. In the meantime the sim owner (Tom) makes a mark 2 version of the sim in his standalone which he wants to use to upgrade the one in the public grid. If he does load-oar he loses all the work done by others (Tom) in the public grid version. What he wants to do is merge his work with others. So we need someway to save each contribution and merge them.
 
I leave it to others wiser than me to devise a syntax for this.
 
 

> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:51:55 -0800
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>
> There are several kinds of filters one could add to the general
> archiving facility. Parcels... why not. Another one -- more important to
> me -- is owner id.
>
> Stefan Andersson wrote:
> > There is of course always the option to implement a region module that can
> > implement some fairly more detailed use case, maybe connecting to stuff like
> > scheduled jobs et c.
> >
> > /Stefan
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [hidden email] [mailto:opensim-users-
> >> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert Klein
> >> Sent: den 21 november 2009 15:24
> >> To: [hidden email]
> >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >>
> >>
> >> I see your points and was only suggesting we have some refined way of
> >> backing
> >> up regions instead of either all or nothing. Even a basic program for
> >> backing up data on a computer allows you to backup either the whole
> >> disk,
> >> individual directories, and individual files (tar vs dd for example).
> >> We
> >> have methods for backing up the whole drive and individual files but
> >> not
> >> directories. It just seems unbalanced.
> >>
> >> I have seen some pretty intense builds in SL and OS on relatively small
> >> parcels that would be a huge issue to recreate. The IAR files are great
> >> but
> >> are not a reasonable method for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128
> >> parcel
> >> with several buildings full of content including a museum and
> >> stage/events
> >> area or a nightclub. Experience tells me we are going to need this if
> >> we
> >> continue to support the concept of having parcels.
> >>
> >> -Robert
> >>
> >>
> >> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote:
> >>> One way to go about it could be to make sure the oar is subdivided
> >> into
> >>> parcels when storing it; if so, one would probably backup the whole
> >> oar,
> >>> but
> >>> be able to restore only parts of the oar.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I have only used oars for full backup, so I don't know if the parcel
> >> info
> >>> is
> >>> already stored in it?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> /Stefan
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> From: [hidden email]
> >>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Len
> >> Brown
> >>> Sent: den 21 november 2009 09:20
> >>> To: [hidden email]
> >>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I am tempted to say that individual parcel backups is not a good
> >> idea. If
> >>> one is building on a parcel, as opposed to a full region, then simply
> >>> maintaining copies of their items in their inventory should be
> >> adequate.
> >>> Parcels come in so many sizes and making a backup would require the
> >> new
> >>> parcel for a restore would have to be identical in dimensions. So
> >> this
> >>> can
> >>> be very complex if you have a parcel that, for example, lies along a
> >> road
> >>> so
> >>> the side of your parcel is angular. Or if you have an odd-shaped
> >> parcel
> >>> or
> >>> a combination of parcels that are separated by other parcels you do
> >> not
> >>> own.
> >>>
> >>> Backing up a region is simple enough given the standard dimensions,
> >> even
> >>> when dealing with megaregions, which are really just a combination of
> >>> multiple "regular" regions of standard size.
> >>>
> >>> So I feel that backing up personal parcels should remain the process
> >> of
> >>> maintaining items in your personal inventory and making a backup of
> >> THAT
> >>> rather than the parcel area itself.
> >>>
> >>> - Len W. Brown
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>>
> >>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Just a thought, but with the economics of OpenSim being totally
> >> different
> >>> from Second Life, I wonder if we will end up with hundreds of tiny
> >> parcels
> >>> in each region?
> >>>
> >>> It seems to me that there are several issues here concerning changes
> >> in
> >>> parcel size/location between backup and restore as well as some
> >>> ownership/covenant/zoning issues.
> >>>
> >>> As I think about the problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can
> >> fully
> >>> articulate even the nature of those issues since they depend heavily
> >> on
> >>> the
> >>> direction that OpenSim development and implementation takes.
> >>>
> >>> Just the same we do need to consider them as best we can lest we fall
> >> into
> >>> some of the same traps as Second Life (content ownership, banking
> >> debacle,
> >>> and gambling come to mind).
> >>>
> >>> Karen
> >>>
> >>> --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >>>> To: [hidden email]
> >>>> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
> >>>>
> >>>> Hey Justin,
> >>>>
> >>>> Yes that is correct, just archive a single parcel on a
> >>>> region. Whatever is
> >>>> in the parcel gets put into the PAR file. Can it be done?
> >>>>
> >>>> -Robert
> >>>>
> >>>> justincc wrote:
> >>>>> Robert Klein wrote:
> >>>>>> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory
> >>>> but what about a PAR
> >>>>>> for
> >>>>>> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy
> >>>> way to dedicate one
> >>>>>> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and
> >>>> out of OpenSims that
> >>>>>> either use the mega region or just have a single
> >>>> region that is
> >>>>>> subdivided.
> >>>>>> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if
> >>>> you have renters or
> >>>>>> event
> >>>>>> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.
> >>>>> I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean.
> >>>> Are you talking about
> >>>>> archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a
> >>>> region?
> >>>>> --
> >>>>> justincc
> >>>>> Justin Clark-Casey
> >>>>> http://justincc.org
> >>>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
> >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>> --
> >>>> View this message in context:
> >>> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
> >>>> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at
> >>>> Nabble.com.
> >>>> _______________________________________________
> >>>> Opensim-users mailing list
> >>>> [hidden email]
> >>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Opensim-users mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Opensim-users mailing list
> >>> [hidden email]
> >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-
> >> tp4008165p4042739.html
> >> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Opensim-users mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Diva Canto
Yep, that's my use case too. More and more, the apps I'm involved with
include people building things in separate development sims, possibly
over copies of a base model, and then having a deployment sim where
things are merged periodically.

Bob Wellman wrote:

> I agree with Diva it would be good if on Save_oar we could specify
> owner-id and then the saved file would only contain prims owned by that
> user. However it needs to be part of a bigger change I think in trems of
> loading oar being less all or nothing too.
>  
> One of the problems with LOAD_OAR at present is the way it replaces
> everything in a sim. It would be good if there were an option to replace
> or add to whats in a sim already with whats on the file being loaded.
> Maybe the replace/add options could be filtered to replace only parts of
> the build (eg. replace Nicks prims with the new oar of Nicks prims
> leaving Toms prims where they are).
>  
> The use case I am thinking of is where a sim (a city) is built by the
> sim owner (Nick) in a standalone grid and loaded via OAR files to a
> public grid. Then in that public grid other people (Tom) adds
> furnishings to the sim in the public grid. In the meantime the sim owner
> (Tom) makes a mark 2 version of the sim in his standalone which he wants
> to use to upgrade the one in the public grid. If he does load-oar he
> loses all the work done by others (Tom) in the public grid version. What
> he wants to do is merge his work with others. So we need someway to save
> each contribution and merge them.
>  
> I leave it to others wiser than me to devise a syntax for this.
>  
>  
>  > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:51:55 -0800
>  > From: [hidden email]
>  > To: [hidden email]
>  > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>  >
>  > There are several kinds of filters one could add to the general
>  > archiving facility. Parcels... why not. Another one -- more important to
>  > me -- is owner id.
>  >
>  > Stefan Andersson wrote:
>  > > There is of course always the option to implement a region module
> that can
>  > > implement some fairly more detailed use case, maybe connecting to
> stuff like
>  > > scheduled jobs et c.
>  > >
>  > > /Stefan
>  > >
>  > >> -----Original Message-----
>  > >> From: [hidden email] [mailto:opensim-users-
>  > >> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert Klein
>  > >> Sent: den 21 november 2009 15:24
>  > >> To: [hidden email]
>  > >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>  > >>
>  > >>
>  > >> I see your points and was only suggesting we have some refined way of
>  > >> backing
>  > >> up regions instead of either all or nothing. Even a basic program for
>  > >> backing up data on a computer allows you to backup either the whole
>  > >> disk,
>  > >> individual directories, and individual files (tar vs dd for example).
>  > >> We
>  > >> have methods for backing up the whole drive and individual files but
>  > >> not
>  > >> directories. It just seems unbalanced.
>  > >>
>  > >> I have seen some pretty intense builds in SL and OS on relatively
> small
>  > >> parcels that would be a huge issue to recreate. The IAR files are
> great
>  > >> but
>  > >> are not a reasonable method for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128
>  > >> parcel
>  > >> with several buildings full of content including a museum and
>  > >> stage/events
>  > >> area or a nightclub. Experience tells me we are going to need this if
>  > >> we
>  > >> continue to support the concept of having parcels.
>  > >>
>  > >> -Robert
>  > >>
>  > >>
>  > >> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote:
>  > >>> One way to go about it could be to make sure the oar is subdivided
>  > >> into
>  > >>> parcels when storing it; if so, one would probably backup the whole
>  > >> oar,
>  > >>> but
>  > >>> be able to restore only parts of the oar.
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> I have only used oars for full backup, so I don't know if the parcel
>  > >> info
>  > >>> is
>  > >>> already stored in it?
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> /Stefan
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> From: [hidden email]
>  > >>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Len
>  > >> Brown
>  > >>> Sent: den 21 november 2009 09:20
>  > >>> To: [hidden email]
>  > >>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> I am tempted to say that individual parcel backups is not a good
>  > >> idea. If
>  > >>> one is building on a parcel, as opposed to a full region, then simply
>  > >>> maintaining copies of their items in their inventory should be
>  > >> adequate.
>  > >>> Parcels come in so many sizes and making a backup would require the
>  > >> new
>  > >>> parcel for a restore would have to be identical in dimensions. So
>  > >> this
>  > >>> can
>  > >>> be very complex if you have a parcel that, for example, lies along a
>  > >> road
>  > >>> so
>  > >>> the side of your parcel is angular. Or if you have an odd-shaped
>  > >> parcel
>  > >>> or
>  > >>> a combination of parcels that are separated by other parcels you do
>  > >> not
>  > >>> own.
>  > >>>
>  > >>> Backing up a region is simple enough given the standard dimensions,
>  > >> even
>  > >>> when dealing with megaregions, which are really just a combination of
>  > >>> multiple "regular" regions of standard size.
>  > >>>
>  > >>> So I feel that backing up personal parcels should remain the process
>  > >> of
>  > >>> maintaining items in your personal inventory and making a backup of
>  > >> THAT
>  > >>> rather than the parcel area itself.
>  > >>>
>  > >>> - Len W. Brown
>  > >>> [hidden email]
>  > >>>
>  > >>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
>  > >>> wrote:
>  > >>>
>  > >>> Just a thought, but with the economics of OpenSim being totally
>  > >> different
>  > >>> from Second Life, I wonder if we will end up with hundreds of tiny
>  > >> parcels
>  > >>> in each region?
>  > >>>
>  > >>> It seems to me that there are several issues here concerning changes
>  > >> in
>  > >>> parcel size/location between backup and restore as well as some
>  > >>> ownership/covenant/zoning issues.
>  > >>>
>  > >>> As I think about the problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can
>  > >> fully
>  > >>> articulate even the nature of those issues since they depend heavily
>  > >> on
>  > >>> the
>  > >>> direction that OpenSim development and implementation takes.
>  > >>>
>  > >>> Just the same we do need to consider them as best we can lest we fall
>  > >> into
>  > >>> some of the same traps as Second Life (content ownership, banking
>  > >> debacle,
>  > >>> and gambling come to mind).
>  > >>>
>  > >>> Karen
>  > >>>
>  > >>> --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>  > >>>
>  > >>>> From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
>  > >>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>  > >>>> To: [hidden email]
>  > >>>> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
>  > >>>>
>  > >>>> Hey Justin,
>  > >>>>
>  > >>>> Yes that is correct, just archive a single parcel on a
>  > >>>> region. Whatever is
>  > >>>> in the parcel gets put into the PAR file. Can it be done?
>  > >>>>
>  > >>>> -Robert
>  > >>>>
>  > >>>> justincc wrote:
>  > >>>>> Robert Klein wrote:
>  > >>>>>> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory
>  > >>>> but what about a PAR
>  > >>>>>> for
>  > >>>>>> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy
>  > >>>> way to dedicate one
>  > >>>>>> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and
>  > >>>> out of OpenSims that
>  > >>>>>> either use the mega region or just have a single
>  > >>>> region that is
>  > >>>>>> subdivided.
>  > >>>>>> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if
>  > >>>> you have renters or
>  > >>>>>> event
>  > >>>>>> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.
>  > >>>>> I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean.
>  > >>>> Are you talking about
>  > >>>>> archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a
>  > >>>> region?
>  > >>>>> --
>  > >>>>> justincc
>  > >>>>> Justin Clark-Casey
>  > >>>>> http://justincc.org
>  > >>>>> _______________________________________________
>  > >>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>  > >>>>> [hidden email]
>  > >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  > >>>>>
>  > >>>>>
>  > >>>> --
>  > >>>> View this message in context:
>  > >>> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
>  > >>>> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at
>  > >>>> Nabble.com.
>  > >>>> _______________________________________________
>  > >>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>  > >>>> [hidden email]
>  > >>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  > >>>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> _______________________________________________
>  > >>> Opensim-users mailing list
>  > >>> [hidden email]
>  > >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> _______________________________________________
>  > >>> Opensim-users mailing list
>  > >>> [hidden email]
>  > >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >> --
>  > >> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-
>  > >> tp4008165p4042739.html
>  > >> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>  > >> _______________________________________________
>  > >> Opensim-users mailing list
>  > >> [hidden email]
>  > >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  > >
>  > > _______________________________________________
>  > > Opensim-users mailing list
>  > > [hidden email]
>  > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  > >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > Opensim-users mailing list
>  > [hidden email]
>  > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Robert Klein
Wow, it is really starting to sound like we need a more robust tool for backing up, restoring, merging, and upgrading regions and parcels. The use case I have is my standalone has a region that has been subdivided into 32 parcels. Each parcel is an office space where the user can personalize their own space. As people roll on and off projects I need to be able to backup a parcel and replace it with a blank one for the next user. If the original user comes back for another project I need to restore their office space to either the same spot or another spot that is available. I seriously do not want to backup and restore entire regions for each change of a tiny parcel. Also if you rent out an event space think of how easy it would be to just bring events up and down based on each time slot. This would give OpenSim a really cool and useful advantage.

-Robert

Diva Canto wrote
Yep, that's my use case too. More and more, the apps I'm involved with
include people building things in separate development sims, possibly
over copies of a base model, and then having a deployment sim where
things are merged periodically.

Bob Wellman wrote:
> I agree with Diva it would be good if on Save_oar we could specify
> owner-id and then the saved file would only contain prims owned by that
> user. However it needs to be part of a bigger change I think in trems of
> loading oar being less all or nothing too.
>  
> One of the problems with LOAD_OAR at present is the way it replaces
> everything in a sim. It would be good if there were an option to replace
> or add to whats in a sim already with whats on the file being loaded.
> Maybe the replace/add options could be filtered to replace only parts of
> the build (eg. replace Nicks prims with the new oar of Nicks prims
> leaving Toms prims where they are).
>  
> The use case I am thinking of is where a sim (a city) is built by the
> sim owner (Nick) in a standalone grid and loaded via OAR files to a
> public grid. Then in that public grid other people (Tom) adds
> furnishings to the sim in the public grid. In the meantime the sim owner
> (Tom) makes a mark 2 version of the sim in his standalone which he wants
> to use to upgrade the one in the public grid. If he does load-oar he
> loses all the work done by others (Tom) in the public grid version. What
> he wants to do is merge his work with others. So we need someway to save
> each contribution and merge them.
>  
> I leave it to others wiser than me to devise a syntax for this.
>  
>  
>  > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:51:55 -0800
>  > From: diva@metaverseink.com
>  > To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>  > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>  >
>  > There are several kinds of filters one could add to the general
>  > archiving facility. Parcels... why not. Another one -- more important to
>  > me -- is owner id.
>  >
>  > Stefan Andersson wrote:
>  > > There is of course always the option to implement a region module
> that can
>  > > implement some fairly more detailed use case, maybe connecting to
> stuff like
>  > > scheduled jobs et c.
>  > >
>  > > /Stefan
>  > >
>  > >> -----Original Message-----
>  > >> From: opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-users-
>  > >> bounces@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Robert Klein
>  > >> Sent: den 21 november 2009 15:24
>  > >> To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>  > >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>  > >>
>  > >>
>  > >> I see your points and was only suggesting we have some refined way of
>  > >> backing
>  > >> up regions instead of either all or nothing. Even a basic program for
>  > >> backing up data on a computer allows you to backup either the whole
>  > >> disk,
>  > >> individual directories, and individual files (tar vs dd for example).
>  > >> We
>  > >> have methods for backing up the whole drive and individual files but
>  > >> not
>  > >> directories. It just seems unbalanced.
>  > >>
>  > >> I have seen some pretty intense builds in SL and OS on relatively
> small
>  > >> parcels that would be a huge issue to recreate. The IAR files are
> great
>  > >> but
>  > >> are not a reasonable method for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128
>  > >> parcel
>  > >> with several buildings full of content including a museum and
>  > >> stage/events
>  > >> area or a nightclub. Experience tells me we are going to need this if
>  > >> we
>  > >> continue to support the concept of having parcels.
>  > >>
>  > >> -Robert
>  > >>
>  > >>
>  > >> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote:
>  > >>> One way to go about it could be to make sure the oar is subdivided
>  > >> into
>  > >>> parcels when storing it; if so, one would probably backup the whole
>  > >> oar,
>  > >>> but
>  > >>> be able to restore only parts of the oar.
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> I have only used oars for full backup, so I don't know if the parcel
>  > >> info
>  > >>> is
>  > >>> already stored in it?
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> /Stefan
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> From: opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de
>  > >>> [mailto:opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Len
>  > >> Brown
>  > >>> Sent: den 21 november 2009 09:20
>  > >>> To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>  > >>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> I am tempted to say that individual parcel backups is not a good
>  > >> idea. If
>  > >>> one is building on a parcel, as opposed to a full region, then simply
>  > >>> maintaining copies of their items in their inventory should be
>  > >> adequate.
>  > >>> Parcels come in so many sizes and making a backup would require the
>  > >> new
>  > >>> parcel for a restore would have to be identical in dimensions. So
>  > >> this
>  > >>> can
>  > >>> be very complex if you have a parcel that, for example, lies along a
>  > >> road
>  > >>> so
>  > >>> the side of your parcel is angular. Or if you have an odd-shaped
>  > >> parcel
>  > >>> or
>  > >>> a combination of parcels that are separated by other parcels you do
>  > >> not
>  > >>> own.
>  > >>>
>  > >>> Backing up a region is simple enough given the standard dimensions,
>  > >> even
>  > >>> when dealing with megaregions, which are really just a combination of
>  > >>> multiple "regular" regions of standard size.
>  > >>>
>  > >>> So I feel that backing up personal parcels should remain the process
>  > >> of
>  > >>> maintaining items in your personal inventory and making a backup of
>  > >> THAT
>  > >>> rather than the parcel area itself.
>  > >>>
>  > >>> - Len W. Brown
>  > >>> lenwbrown@gmail.com
>  > >>>
>  > >>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Karen Palen <karen_palen@yahoo.com>
>  > >>> wrote:
>  > >>>
>  > >>> Just a thought, but with the economics of OpenSim being totally
>  > >> different
>  > >>> from Second Life, I wonder if we will end up with hundreds of tiny
>  > >> parcels
>  > >>> in each region?
>  > >>>
>  > >>> It seems to me that there are several issues here concerning changes
>  > >> in
>  > >>> parcel size/location between backup and restore as well as some
>  > >>> ownership/covenant/zoning issues.
>  > >>>
>  > >>> As I think about the problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can
>  > >> fully
>  > >>> articulate even the nature of those issues since they depend heavily
>  > >> on
>  > >>> the
>  > >>> direction that OpenSim development and implementation takes.
>  > >>>
>  > >>> Just the same we do need to consider them as best we can lest we fall
>  > >> into
>  > >>> some of the same traps as Second Life (content ownership, banking
>  > >> debacle,
>  > >>> and gambling come to mind).
>  > >>>
>  > >>> Karen
>  > >>>
>  > >>> --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Klein <rtkwebman@gmail.com> wrote:
>  > >>>
>  > >>>> From: Robert Klein <rtkwebman@gmail.com>
>  > >>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>  > >>>> To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>  > >>>> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
>  > >>>>
>  > >>>> Hey Justin,
>  > >>>>
>  > >>>> Yes that is correct, just archive a single parcel on a
>  > >>>> region. Whatever is
>  > >>>> in the parcel gets put into the PAR file. Can it be done?
>  > >>>>
>  > >>>> -Robert
>  > >>>>
>  > >>>> justincc wrote:
>  > >>>>> Robert Klein wrote:
>  > >>>>>> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory
>  > >>>> but what about a PAR
>  > >>>>>> for
>  > >>>>>> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy
>  > >>>> way to dedicate one
>  > >>>>>> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and
>  > >>>> out of OpenSims that
>  > >>>>>> either use the mega region or just have a single
>  > >>>> region that is
>  > >>>>>> subdivided.
>  > >>>>>> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if
>  > >>>> you have renters or
>  > >>>>>> event
>  > >>>>>> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.
>  > >>>>> I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean.
>  > >>>> Are you talking about
>  > >>>>> archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a
>  > >>>> region?
>  > >>>>> --
>  > >>>>> justincc
>  > >>>>> Justin Clark-Casey
>  > >>>>> http://justincc.org
>  > >>>>> _______________________________________________
>  > >>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>  > >>>>> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>  > >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  > >>>>>
>  > >>>>>
>  > >>>> --
>  > >>>> View this message in context:
>  > >>> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
>  > >>>> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at
>  > >>>> Nabble.com.
>  > >>>> _______________________________________________
>  > >>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>  > >>>> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>  > >>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  > >>>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> _______________________________________________
>  > >>> Opensim-users mailing list
>  > >>> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>  > >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> _______________________________________________
>  > >>> Opensim-users mailing list
>  > >>> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>  > >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >> --
>  > >> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-
>  > >> tp4008165p4042739.html
>  > >> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>  > >> _______________________________________________
>  > >> Opensim-users mailing list
>  > >> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>  > >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  > >
>  > > _______________________________________________
>  > > Opensim-users mailing list
>  > > Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>  > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  > >
>  > _______________________________________________
>  > Opensim-users mailing list
>  > Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
>  > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Karen_Palen
I have to wonder if that isn't being too "SecondLife centric"!

There really seems to be no reason why you can't give each user an entire region with OpenSim.

The restrictions and expense of a region really boil down to SecondLife's business model in which they charge for virtual land by the square meter. This is not due to any fundamental cost increment - the real cost variables are things like the number of prims and avatars on the land, not its "virtual area".

This still does not address any ownership issues which really are a different dimension of the problem. I suspect that this is bound up in the ownership issues you see in Hypergrids.

I don't have a good solution to these issues, apart from being prepared to donate much of my own past 3d work.

Karen

--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Robert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 7:04 PM
>
> Wow, it is really starting to sound like we need a more
> robust tool for
> backing up, restoring, merging, and upgrading regions and
> parcels. The use
> case I have is my standalone has a region that has been
> subdivided into 32
> parcels. Each parcel is an office space where the user can
> personalize their
> own space. As people roll on and off projects I need to be
> able to backup a
> parcel and replace it with a blank one for the next user.
> If the original
> user comes back for another project I need to restore their
> office space to
> either the same spot or another spot that is available. I
> seriously do not
> want to backup and restore entire regions for each change
> of a tiny parcel.
> Also if you rent out an event space think of how easy it
> would be to just
> bring events up and down based on each time slot. This
> would give OpenSim a
> really cool and useful advantage.
>
> -Robert
>
>
> Diva Canto wrote:
> >
> > Yep, that's my use case too. More and more, the apps
> I'm involved with
> > include people building things in separate development
> sims, possibly
> > over copies of a base model, and then having a
> deployment sim where
> > things are merged periodically.
> >
> > Bob Wellman wrote:
> >> I agree with Diva it would be good if on Save_oar
> we could specify
> >> owner-id and then the saved file would only
> contain prims owned by that
> >> user. However it needs to be part of a bigger
> change I think in trems of
> >> loading oar being less all or nothing too.
> >> 
> >> One of the problems with LOAD_OAR at present is
> the way it replaces
> >> everything in a sim. It would be good if there
> were an option to replace
> >> or add to whats in a sim already with whats on the
> file being loaded.
> >> Maybe the replace/add options could be filtered to
> replace only parts of
> >> the build (eg. replace Nicks prims with the new
> oar of Nicks prims
> >> leaving Toms prims where they are).
> >> 
> >> The use case I am thinking of is where a sim (a
> city) is built by the
> >> sim owner (Nick) in a standalone grid and loaded
> via OAR files to a
> >> public grid. Then in that public grid other people
> (Tom) adds
> >> furnishings to the sim in the public grid. In the
> meantime the sim owner
> >> (Tom) makes a mark 2 version of the sim in his
> standalone which he wants
> >> to use to upgrade the one in the public grid. If
> he does load-oar he
> >> loses all the work done by others (Tom) in the
> public grid version. What
> >> he wants to do is merge his work with others. So
> we need someway to save
> >> each contribution and merge them.
> >> 
> >> I leave it to others wiser than me to devise a
> syntax for this.
> >> 
> >> 
> >>  > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:51:55 -0800
> >>  > From: [hidden email]
> >>  > To: [hidden email]
> >>  > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel
> Archiver?
> >>  >
> >>  > There are several kinds of filters one
> could add to the general
> >>  > archiving facility. Parcels... why not.
> Another one -- more important
> >> to
> >>  > me -- is owner id.
> >>  >
> >>  > Stefan Andersson wrote:
> >>  > > There is of course always the
> option to implement a region module
> >> that can
> >>  > > implement some fairly more
> detailed use case, maybe connecting to
> >> stuff like
> >>  > > scheduled jobs et c.
> >>  > >
> >>  > > /Stefan
> >>  > >
> >>  > >> -----Original Message-----
> >>  > >> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:opensim-users-
> >>  > >> [hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Robert Klein
> >>  > >> Sent: den 21 november 2009
> 15:24
> >>  > >> To: [hidden email]
> >>  > >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users]
> Parcel Archiver?
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> I see your points and was only
> suggesting we have some refined way
> >> of
> >>  > >> backing
> >>  > >> up regions instead of either
> all or nothing. Even a basic program
> >> for
> >>  > >> backing up data on a computer
> allows you to backup either the whole
> >>  > >> disk,
> >>  > >> individual directories, and
> individual files (tar vs dd for
> >> example).
> >>  > >> We
> >>  > >> have methods for backing up
> the whole drive and individual files
> >> but
> >>  > >> not
> >>  > >> directories. It just seems
> unbalanced.
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> I have seen some pretty
> intense builds in SL and OS on relatively
> >> small
> >>  > >> parcels that would be a huge
> issue to recreate. The IAR files are
> >> great
> >>  > >> but
> >>  > >> are not a reasonable method
> for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128
> >>  > >> parcel
> >>  > >> with several buildings full of
> content including a museum and
> >>  > >> stage/events
> >>  > >> area or a nightclub.
> Experience tells me we are going to need this
> >> if
> >>  > >> we
> >>  > >> continue to support the
> concept of having parcels.
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> -Robert
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote:
> >>  > >>> One way to go about it
> could be to make sure the oar is subdivided
> >>  > >> into
> >>  > >>> parcels when storing it;
> if so, one would probably backup the
> >> whole
> >>  > >> oar,
> >>  > >>> but
> >>  > >>> be able to restore only
> parts of the oar.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> I have only used oars for
> full backup, so I don't know if the
> >> parcel
> >>  > >> info
> >>  > >>> is
> >>  > >>> already stored in it?
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> /Stefan
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> From: [hidden email]
> >>  > >>> [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Len
> >>  > >> Brown
> >>  > >>> Sent: den 21 november 2009
> 09:20
> >>  > >>> To: [hidden email]
> >>  > >>> Subject: Re:
> [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> I am tempted to say that
> individual parcel backups is not a good
> >>  > >> idea. If
> >>  > >>> one is building on a
> parcel, as opposed to a full region, then
> >> simply
> >>  > >>> maintaining copies of
> their items in their inventory should be
> >>  > >> adequate.
> >>  > >>> Parcels come in so many
> sizes and making a backup would require
> >> the
> >>  > >> new
> >>  > >>> parcel for a restore would
> have to be identical in dimensions. So
> >>  > >> this
> >>  > >>> can
> >>  > >>> be very complex if you
> have a parcel that, for example, lies along
> >> a
> >>  > >> road
> >>  > >>> so
> >>  > >>> the side of your parcel is
> angular. Or if you have an odd-shaped
> >>  > >> parcel
> >>  > >>> or
> >>  > >>> a combination of parcels
> that are separated by other parcels you
> >> do
> >>  > >> not
> >>  > >>> own.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> Backing up a region is
> simple enough given the standard
> >> dimensions,
> >>  > >> even
> >>  > >>> when dealing with
> megaregions, which are really just a combination
> >> of
> >>  > >>> multiple "regular" regions
> of standard size.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> So I feel that backing up
> personal parcels should remain the
> >> process
> >>  > >> of
> >>  > >>> maintaining items in your
> personal inventory and making a backup
> >> of
> >>  > >> THAT
> >>  > >>> rather than the parcel
> area itself.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> - Len W. Brown
> >>  > >>> [hidden email]
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at
> 1:16 AM, Karen Palen
> >> <[hidden email]>
> >>  > >>> wrote:
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> Just a thought, but with
> the economics of OpenSim being totally
> >>  > >> different
> >>  > >>> from Second Life, I wonder
> if we will end up with hundreds of tiny
> >>  > >> parcels
> >>  > >>> in each region?
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> It seems to me that there
> are several issues here concerning
> >> changes
> >>  > >> in
> >>  > >>> parcel size/location
> between backup and restore as well as some
> >>  > >>> ownership/covenant/zoning
> issues.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> As I think about the
> problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can
> >>  > >> fully
> >>  > >>> articulate even the nature
> of those issues since they depend
> >> heavily
> >>  > >> on
> >>  > >>> the
> >>  > >>> direction that OpenSim
> development and implementation takes.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> Just the same we do need
> to consider them as best we can lest we
> >> fall
> >>  > >> into
> >>  > >>> some of the same traps as
> Second Life (content ownership, banking
> >>  > >> debacle,
> >>  > >>> and gambling come to
> mind).
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> Karen
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> --- On Fri, 11/20/09,
> Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>> From: Robert Klein
> <[hidden email]>
> >>  > >>>> Subject: Re:
> [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >>  > >>>> To: [hidden email]
> >>  > >>>> Date: Friday, November
> 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
> >>  > >>>>
> >>  > >>>> Hey Justin,
> >>  > >>>>
> >>  > >>>> Yes that is correct,
> just archive a single parcel on a
> >>  > >>>> region. Whatever is
> >>  > >>>> in the parcel gets put
> into the PAR file. Can it be done?
> >>  > >>>>
> >>  > >>>> -Robert
> >>  > >>>>
> >>  > >>>> justincc wrote:
> >>  > >>>>> Robert Klein
> wrote:
> >>  > >>>>>> We have a OAR
> for regions and a IAR for inventory
> >>  > >>>> but what about a PAR
> >>  > >>>>>> for
> >>  > >>>>>> doing parcel
> area archiving? It would be an easy
> >>  > >>>> way to dedicate one
> >>  > >>>>>> subdivided
> parcel area for bringing things in and
> >>  > >>>> out of OpenSims that
> >>  > >>>>>> either use the
> mega region or just have a single
> >>  > >>>> region that is
> >>  > >>>>>> subdivided.
> >>  > >>>>>> Also the
> beauty of this would be in the future if
> >>  > >>>> you have renters or
> >>  > >>>>>> event
> >>  > >>>>>> spaces you can
> keep backups of just those spaces.
> >>  > >>>>> I'm not too sure
> if I get exactly what you mean.
> >>  > >>>> Are you talking about
> >>  > >>>>> archiving just the
> contents of a single parcel on a
> >>  > >>>> region?
> >>  > >>>>> --
> >>  > >>>>> justincc
> >>  > >>>>> Justin
> Clark-Casey
> >>  > >>>>> http://justincc.org
> >>  > >>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > >>>>> Opensim-users
> mailing list
> >>  > >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>  > >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>  > >>>>>
> >>  > >>>>>
> >>  > >>>> --
> >>  > >>>> View this message in
> context:
> >>  > >>> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
> >>  > >>>> Sent from the
> opensim-users mailing list archive at
> >>  > >>>> Nabble.com.
> >>  > >>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > >>>> Opensim-users mailing
> list
> >>  > >>>> [hidden email]
> >>  > >>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>  > >>>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > >>> Opensim-users mailing
> list
> >>  > >>> [hidden email]
> >>  > >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > >>> Opensim-users mailing
> list
> >>  > >>> [hidden email]
> >>  > >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >> --
> >>  > >> View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-
> >>  > >> tp4008165p4042739.html
> >>  > >> Sent from the opensim-users
> mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>  > >>
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > >> Opensim-users mailing list
> >>  > >> [hidden email]
> >>  > >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>  > >
> >>  > >
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > > Opensim-users mailing list
> >>  > > [hidden email]
> >>  > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>  > >
> >>  >
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > Opensim-users mailing list
> >>  > [hidden email]
> >>  > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> New! Receive and respond to mail from other email
> accounts from within
> >> Hotmail Find out how. <http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/186394593/direct/01/ >
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Opensim-users mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> >
>
> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4044809.html
> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>


     
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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Dickson, Mike (ISS Software)
As long as a region can also be arbitrarily small I think a region based approach can work. Really the 256m square model was effective and will remain so for some use cases.  But there are others where megaregions or smaller regions even might make sense.  Lastly stitching them together on a grid is itself a simplifying assumption.  Other systems like Croquet and ActiveWorlds really are more decoupled from that and you can "portal" between completely disconnected regions.

I guess this boils down to the use cases you want to support and where the current approach fails to achieve that.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Karen Palen
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:29 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?

I have to wonder if that isn't being too "SecondLife centric"!

There really seems to be no reason why you can't give each user an entire region with OpenSim.

The restrictions and expense of a region really boil down to SecondLife's business model in which they charge for virtual land by the square meter. This is not due to any fundamental cost increment - the real cost variables are things like the number of prims and avatars on the land, not its "virtual area".

This still does not address any ownership issues which really are a different dimension of the problem. I suspect that this is bound up in the ownership issues you see in Hypergrids.

I don't have a good solution to these issues, apart from being prepared to donate much of my own past 3d work.

Karen

--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Robert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 7:04 PM
>
> Wow, it is really starting to sound like we need a more
> robust tool for
> backing up, restoring, merging, and upgrading regions and
> parcels. The use
> case I have is my standalone has a region that has been
> subdivided into 32
> parcels. Each parcel is an office space where the user can
> personalize their
> own space. As people roll on and off projects I need to be
> able to backup a
> parcel and replace it with a blank one for the next user.
> If the original
> user comes back for another project I need to restore their
> office space to
> either the same spot or another spot that is available. I
> seriously do not
> want to backup and restore entire regions for each change
> of a tiny parcel.
> Also if you rent out an event space think of how easy it
> would be to just
> bring events up and down based on each time slot. This
> would give OpenSim a
> really cool and useful advantage.
>
> -Robert
>
>
> Diva Canto wrote:
> >
> > Yep, that's my use case too. More and more, the apps
> I'm involved with
> > include people building things in separate development
> sims, possibly
> > over copies of a base model, and then having a
> deployment sim where
> > things are merged periodically.
> >
> > Bob Wellman wrote:
> >> I agree with Diva it would be good if on Save_oar
> we could specify
> >> owner-id and then the saved file would only
> contain prims owned by that
> >> user. However it needs to be part of a bigger
> change I think in trems of
> >> loading oar being less all or nothing too.
> >>
> >> One of the problems with LOAD_OAR at present is
> the way it replaces
> >> everything in a sim. It would be good if there
> were an option to replace
> >> or add to whats in a sim already with whats on the
> file being loaded.
> >> Maybe the replace/add options could be filtered to
> replace only parts of
> >> the build (eg. replace Nicks prims with the new
> oar of Nicks prims
> >> leaving Toms prims where they are).
> >>
> >> The use case I am thinking of is where a sim (a
> city) is built by the
> >> sim owner (Nick) in a standalone grid and loaded
> via OAR files to a
> >> public grid. Then in that public grid other people
> (Tom) adds
> >> furnishings to the sim in the public grid. In the
> meantime the sim owner
> >> (Tom) makes a mark 2 version of the sim in his
> standalone which he wants
> >> to use to upgrade the one in the public grid. If
> he does load-oar he
> >> loses all the work done by others (Tom) in the
> public grid version. What
> >> he wants to do is merge his work with others. So
> we need someway to save
> >> each contribution and merge them.
> >>
> >> I leave it to others wiser than me to devise a
> syntax for this.
> >>
> >>
> >>  > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:51:55 -0800
> >>  > From: [hidden email]
> >>  > To: [hidden email]
> >>  > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel
> Archiver?
> >>  >
> >>  > There are several kinds of filters one
> could add to the general
> >>  > archiving facility. Parcels... why not.
> Another one -- more important
> >> to
> >>  > me -- is owner id.
> >>  >
> >>  > Stefan Andersson wrote:
> >>  > > There is of course always the
> option to implement a region module
> >> that can
> >>  > > implement some fairly more
> detailed use case, maybe connecting to
> >> stuff like
> >>  > > scheduled jobs et c.
> >>  > >
> >>  > > /Stefan
> >>  > >
> >>  > >> -----Original Message-----
> >>  > >> From: [hidden email]
> [mailto:opensim-users-
> >>  > >> [hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Robert Klein
> >>  > >> Sent: den 21 november 2009
> 15:24
> >>  > >> To: [hidden email]
> >>  > >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users]
> Parcel Archiver?
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> I see your points and was only
> suggesting we have some refined way
> >> of
> >>  > >> backing
> >>  > >> up regions instead of either
> all or nothing. Even a basic program
> >> for
> >>  > >> backing up data on a computer
> allows you to backup either the whole
> >>  > >> disk,
> >>  > >> individual directories, and
> individual files (tar vs dd for
> >> example).
> >>  > >> We
> >>  > >> have methods for backing up
> the whole drive and individual files
> >> but
> >>  > >> not
> >>  > >> directories. It just seems
> unbalanced.
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> I have seen some pretty
> intense builds in SL and OS on relatively
> >> small
> >>  > >> parcels that would be a huge
> issue to recreate. The IAR files are
> >> great
> >>  > >> but
> >>  > >> are not a reasonable method
> for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128
> >>  > >> parcel
> >>  > >> with several buildings full of
> content including a museum and
> >>  > >> stage/events
> >>  > >> area or a nightclub.
> Experience tells me we are going to need this
> >> if
> >>  > >> we
> >>  > >> continue to support the
> concept of having parcels.
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> -Robert
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote:
> >>  > >>> One way to go about it
> could be to make sure the oar is subdivided
> >>  > >> into
> >>  > >>> parcels when storing it;
> if so, one would probably backup the
> >> whole
> >>  > >> oar,
> >>  > >>> but
> >>  > >>> be able to restore only
> parts of the oar.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> I have only used oars for
> full backup, so I don't know if the
> >> parcel
> >>  > >> info
> >>  > >>> is
> >>  > >>> already stored in it?
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> /Stefan
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> From: [hidden email]
> >>  > >>> [mailto:[hidden email]]
> On Behalf Of Len
> >>  > >> Brown
> >>  > >>> Sent: den 21 november 2009
> 09:20
> >>  > >>> To: [hidden email]
> >>  > >>> Subject: Re:
> [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> I am tempted to say that
> individual parcel backups is not a good
> >>  > >> idea. If
> >>  > >>> one is building on a
> parcel, as opposed to a full region, then
> >> simply
> >>  > >>> maintaining copies of
> their items in their inventory should be
> >>  > >> adequate.
> >>  > >>> Parcels come in so many
> sizes and making a backup would require
> >> the
> >>  > >> new
> >>  > >>> parcel for a restore would
> have to be identical in dimensions. So
> >>  > >> this
> >>  > >>> can
> >>  > >>> be very complex if you
> have a parcel that, for example, lies along
> >> a
> >>  > >> road
> >>  > >>> so
> >>  > >>> the side of your parcel is
> angular. Or if you have an odd-shaped
> >>  > >> parcel
> >>  > >>> or
> >>  > >>> a combination of parcels
> that are separated by other parcels you
> >> do
> >>  > >> not
> >>  > >>> own.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> Backing up a region is
> simple enough given the standard
> >> dimensions,
> >>  > >> even
> >>  > >>> when dealing with
> megaregions, which are really just a combination
> >> of
> >>  > >>> multiple "regular" regions
> of standard size.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> So I feel that backing up
> personal parcels should remain the
> >> process
> >>  > >> of
> >>  > >>> maintaining items in your
> personal inventory and making a backup
> >> of
> >>  > >> THAT
> >>  > >>> rather than the parcel
> area itself.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> - Len W. Brown
> >>  > >>> [hidden email]
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at
> 1:16 AM, Karen Palen
> >> <[hidden email]>
> >>  > >>> wrote:
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> Just a thought, but with
> the economics of OpenSim being totally
> >>  > >> different
> >>  > >>> from Second Life, I wonder
> if we will end up with hundreds of tiny
> >>  > >> parcels
> >>  > >>> in each region?
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> It seems to me that there
> are several issues here concerning
> >> changes
> >>  > >> in
> >>  > >>> parcel size/location
> between backup and restore as well as some
> >>  > >>> ownership/covenant/zoning
> issues.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> As I think about the
> problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can
> >>  > >> fully
> >>  > >>> articulate even the nature
> of those issues since they depend
> >> heavily
> >>  > >> on
> >>  > >>> the
> >>  > >>> direction that OpenSim
> development and implementation takes.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> Just the same we do need
> to consider them as best we can lest we
> >> fall
> >>  > >> into
> >>  > >>> some of the same traps as
> Second Life (content ownership, banking
> >>  > >> debacle,
> >>  > >>> and gambling come to
> mind).
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> Karen
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> --- On Fri, 11/20/09,
> Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>> From: Robert Klein
> <[hidden email]>
> >>  > >>>> Subject: Re:
> [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >>  > >>>> To: [hidden email]
> >>  > >>>> Date: Friday, November
> 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
> >>  > >>>>
> >>  > >>>> Hey Justin,
> >>  > >>>>
> >>  > >>>> Yes that is correct,
> just archive a single parcel on a
> >>  > >>>> region. Whatever is
> >>  > >>>> in the parcel gets put
> into the PAR file. Can it be done?
> >>  > >>>>
> >>  > >>>> -Robert
> >>  > >>>>
> >>  > >>>> justincc wrote:
> >>  > >>>>> Robert Klein
> wrote:
> >>  > >>>>>> We have a OAR
> for regions and a IAR for inventory
> >>  > >>>> but what about a PAR
> >>  > >>>>>> for
> >>  > >>>>>> doing parcel
> area archiving? It would be an easy
> >>  > >>>> way to dedicate one
> >>  > >>>>>> subdivided
> parcel area for bringing things in and
> >>  > >>>> out of OpenSims that
> >>  > >>>>>> either use the
> mega region or just have a single
> >>  > >>>> region that is
> >>  > >>>>>> subdivided.
> >>  > >>>>>> Also the
> beauty of this would be in the future if
> >>  > >>>> you have renters or
> >>  > >>>>>> event
> >>  > >>>>>> spaces you can
> keep backups of just those spaces.
> >>  > >>>>> I'm not too sure
> if I get exactly what you mean.
> >>  > >>>> Are you talking about
> >>  > >>>>> archiving just the
> contents of a single parcel on a
> >>  > >>>> region?
> >>  > >>>>> --
> >>  > >>>>> justincc
> >>  > >>>>> Justin
> Clark-Casey
> >>  > >>>>> http://justincc.org
> >>  > >>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > >>>>> Opensim-users
> mailing list
> >>  > >>>>> [hidden email]
> >>  > >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>  > >>>>>
> >>  > >>>>>
> >>  > >>>> --
> >>  > >>>> View this message in
> context:
> >>  > >>> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
> >>  > >>>> Sent from the
> opensim-users mailing list archive at
> >>  > >>>> Nabble.com.
> >>  > >>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > >>>> Opensim-users mailing
> list
> >>  > >>>> [hidden email]
> >>  > >>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>  > >>>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > >>> Opensim-users mailing
> list
> >>  > >>> [hidden email]
> >>  > >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > >>> Opensim-users mailing
> list
> >>  > >>> [hidden email]
> >>  > >>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >> --
> >>  > >> View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-
> >>  > >> tp4008165p4042739.html
> >>  > >> Sent from the opensim-users
> mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >>  > >>
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > >> Opensim-users mailing list
> >>  > >> [hidden email]
> >>  > >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>  > >
> >>  > >
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > > Opensim-users mailing list
> >>  > > [hidden email]
> >>  > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>  > >
> >>  >
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > Opensim-users mailing list
> >>  > [hidden email]
> >>  > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>
> >>
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> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Opensim-users mailing list
> >> [hidden email]
> >> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
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> --
> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4044809.html
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Re: Parcel Archiver?

Robert Klein
I do not have the server resources at this time to create 32 functional regions. That would also add a lot of uneeded complexity to creating temporary virtual workspaces for project collaboration and training. I try to keep things simple in order to up the reliability factor. It took me only a few minutes to subdivide a region into 32 parcels with a simple naming convention for each parcel. Other than not having a way to directly backup and restore a single parcel everything else works just fine. :)

-Robert

Dickson, Mike (ISS Software) wrote
As long as a region can also be arbitrarily small I think a region based approach can work. Really the 256m square model was effective and will remain so for some use cases.  But there are others where megaregions or smaller regions even might make sense.  Lastly stitching them together on a grid is itself a simplifying assumption.  Other systems like Croquet and ActiveWorlds really are more decoupled from that and you can "portal" between completely disconnected regions.

I guess this boils down to the use cases you want to support and where the current approach fails to achieve that.

Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de [mailto:opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de] On Behalf Of Karen Palen
Sent: Sunday, November 22, 2009 10:29 AM
To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?

I have to wonder if that isn't being too "SecondLife centric"!

There really seems to be no reason why you can't give each user an entire region with OpenSim.

The restrictions and expense of a region really boil down to SecondLife's business model in which they charge for virtual land by the square meter. This is not due to any fundamental cost increment - the real cost variables are things like the number of prims and avatars on the land, not its "virtual area".

This still does not address any ownership issues which really are a different dimension of the problem. I suspect that this is bound up in the ownership issues you see in Hypergrids.

I don't have a good solution to these issues, apart from being prepared to donate much of my own past 3d work.

Karen

--- On Sat, 11/21/09, Robert Klein <rtkwebman@gmail.com> wrote:

> From: Robert Klein <rtkwebman@gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
> Date: Saturday, November 21, 2009, 7:04 PM
>
> Wow, it is really starting to sound like we need a more
> robust tool for
> backing up, restoring, merging, and upgrading regions and
> parcels. The use
> case I have is my standalone has a region that has been
> subdivided into 32
> parcels. Each parcel is an office space where the user can
> personalize their
> own space. As people roll on and off projects I need to be
> able to backup a
> parcel and replace it with a blank one for the next user.
> If the original
> user comes back for another project I need to restore their
> office space to
> either the same spot or another spot that is available. I
> seriously do not
> want to backup and restore entire regions for each change
> of a tiny parcel.
> Also if you rent out an event space think of how easy it
> would be to just
> bring events up and down based on each time slot. This
> would give OpenSim a
> really cool and useful advantage.
>
> -Robert
>
>
> Diva Canto wrote:
> >
> > Yep, that's my use case too. More and more, the apps
> I'm involved with
> > include people building things in separate development
> sims, possibly
> > over copies of a base model, and then having a
> deployment sim where
> > things are merged periodically.
> >
> > Bob Wellman wrote:
> >> I agree with Diva it would be good if on Save_oar
> we could specify
> >> owner-id and then the saved file would only
> contain prims owned by that
> >> user. However it needs to be part of a bigger
> change I think in trems of
> >> loading oar being less all or nothing too.
> >>
> >> One of the problems with LOAD_OAR at present is
> the way it replaces
> >> everything in a sim. It would be good if there
> were an option to replace
> >> or add to whats in a sim already with whats on the
> file being loaded.
> >> Maybe the replace/add options could be filtered to
> replace only parts of
> >> the build (eg. replace Nicks prims with the new
> oar of Nicks prims
> >> leaving Toms prims where they are).
> >>
> >> The use case I am thinking of is where a sim (a
> city) is built by the
> >> sim owner (Nick) in a standalone grid and loaded
> via OAR files to a
> >> public grid. Then in that public grid other people
> (Tom) adds
> >> furnishings to the sim in the public grid. In the
> meantime the sim owner
> >> (Tom) makes a mark 2 version of the sim in his
> standalone which he wants
> >> to use to upgrade the one in the public grid. If
> he does load-oar he
> >> loses all the work done by others (Tom) in the
> public grid version. What
> >> he wants to do is merge his work with others. So
> we need someway to save
> >> each contribution and merge them.
> >>
> >> I leave it to others wiser than me to devise a
> syntax for this.
> >>
> >>
> >>  > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:51:55 -0800
> >>  > From: diva@metaverseink.com
> >>  > To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
> >>  > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel
> Archiver?
> >>  >
> >>  > There are several kinds of filters one
> could add to the general
> >>  > archiving facility. Parcels... why not.
> Another one -- more important
> >> to
> >>  > me -- is owner id.
> >>  >
> >>  > Stefan Andersson wrote:
> >>  > > There is of course always the
> option to implement a region module
> >> that can
> >>  > > implement some fairly more
> detailed use case, maybe connecting to
> >> stuff like
> >>  > > scheduled jobs et c.
> >>  > >
> >>  > > /Stefan
> >>  > >
> >>  > >> -----Original Message-----
> >>  > >> From: opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de
> [mailto:opensim-users-
> >>  > >> bounces@lists.berlios.de]
> On Behalf Of Robert Klein
> >>  > >> Sent: den 21 november 2009
> 15:24
> >>  > >> To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
> >>  > >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users]
> Parcel Archiver?
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> I see your points and was only
> suggesting we have some refined way
> >> of
> >>  > >> backing
> >>  > >> up regions instead of either
> all or nothing. Even a basic program
> >> for
> >>  > >> backing up data on a computer
> allows you to backup either the whole
> >>  > >> disk,
> >>  > >> individual directories, and
> individual files (tar vs dd for
> >> example).
> >>  > >> We
> >>  > >> have methods for backing up
> the whole drive and individual files
> >> but
> >>  > >> not
> >>  > >> directories. It just seems
> unbalanced.
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> I have seen some pretty
> intense builds in SL and OS on relatively
> >> small
> >>  > >> parcels that would be a huge
> issue to recreate. The IAR files are
> >> great
> >>  > >> but
> >>  > >> are not a reasonable method
> for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128
> >>  > >> parcel
> >>  > >> with several buildings full of
> content including a museum and
> >>  > >> stage/events
> >>  > >> area or a nightclub.
> Experience tells me we are going to need this
> >> if
> >>  > >> we
> >>  > >> continue to support the
> concept of having parcels.
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> -Robert
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >>
> >>  > >> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote:
> >>  > >>> One way to go about it
> could be to make sure the oar is subdivided
> >>  > >> into
> >>  > >>> parcels when storing it;
> if so, one would probably backup the
> >> whole
> >>  > >> oar,
> >>  > >>> but
> >>  > >>> be able to restore only
> parts of the oar.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> I have only used oars for
> full backup, so I don't know if the
> >> parcel
> >>  > >> info
> >>  > >>> is
> >>  > >>> already stored in it?
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> /Stefan
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> From: opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de
> >>  > >>> [mailto:opensim-users-bounces@lists.berlios.de]
> On Behalf Of Len
> >>  > >> Brown
> >>  > >>> Sent: den 21 november 2009
> 09:20
> >>  > >>> To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
> >>  > >>> Subject: Re:
> [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> I am tempted to say that
> individual parcel backups is not a good
> >>  > >> idea. If
> >>  > >>> one is building on a
> parcel, as opposed to a full region, then
> >> simply
> >>  > >>> maintaining copies of
> their items in their inventory should be
> >>  > >> adequate.
> >>  > >>> Parcels come in so many
> sizes and making a backup would require
> >> the
> >>  > >> new
> >>  > >>> parcel for a restore would
> have to be identical in dimensions. So
> >>  > >> this
> >>  > >>> can
> >>  > >>> be very complex if you
> have a parcel that, for example, lies along
> >> a
> >>  > >> road
> >>  > >>> so
> >>  > >>> the side of your parcel is
> angular. Or if you have an odd-shaped
> >>  > >> parcel
> >>  > >>> or
> >>  > >>> a combination of parcels
> that are separated by other parcels you
> >> do
> >>  > >> not
> >>  > >>> own.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> Backing up a region is
> simple enough given the standard
> >> dimensions,
> >>  > >> even
> >>  > >>> when dealing with
> megaregions, which are really just a combination
> >> of
> >>  > >>> multiple "regular" regions
> of standard size.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> So I feel that backing up
> personal parcels should remain the
> >> process
> >>  > >> of
> >>  > >>> maintaining items in your
> personal inventory and making a backup
> >> of
> >>  > >> THAT
> >>  > >>> rather than the parcel
> area itself.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> - Len W. Brown
> >>  > >>> lenwbrown@gmail.com
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at
> 1:16 AM, Karen Palen
> >> <karen_palen@yahoo.com>
> >>  > >>> wrote:
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> Just a thought, but with
> the economics of OpenSim being totally
> >>  > >> different
> >>  > >>> from Second Life, I wonder
> if we will end up with hundreds of tiny
> >>  > >> parcels
> >>  > >>> in each region?
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> It seems to me that there
> are several issues here concerning
> >> changes
> >>  > >> in
> >>  > >>> parcel size/location
> between backup and restore as well as some
> >>  > >>> ownership/covenant/zoning
> issues.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> As I think about the
> problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can
> >>  > >> fully
> >>  > >>> articulate even the nature
> of those issues since they depend
> >> heavily
> >>  > >> on
> >>  > >>> the
> >>  > >>> direction that OpenSim
> development and implementation takes.
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> Just the same we do need
> to consider them as best we can lest we
> >> fall
> >>  > >> into
> >>  > >>> some of the same traps as
> Second Life (content ownership, banking
> >>  > >> debacle,
> >>  > >>> and gambling come to
> mind).
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> Karen
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>> --- On Fri, 11/20/09,
> Robert Klein <rtkwebman@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >>  > >>>
> >>  > >>>> From: Robert Klein
> <rtkwebman@gmail.com>
> >>  > >>>> Subject: Re:
> [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
> >>  > >>>> To: opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
> >>  > >>>> Date: Friday, November
> 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
> >>  > >>>>
> >>  > >>>> Hey Justin,
> >>  > >>>>
> >>  > >>>> Yes that is correct,
> just archive a single parcel on a
> >>  > >>>> region. Whatever is
> >>  > >>>> in the parcel gets put
> into the PAR file. Can it be done?
> >>  > >>>>
> >>  > >>>> -Robert
> >>  > >>>>
> >>  > >>>> justincc wrote:
> >>  > >>>>> Robert Klein
> wrote:
> >>  > >>>>>> We have a OAR
> for regions and a IAR for inventory
> >>  > >>>> but what about a PAR
> >>  > >>>>>> for
> >>  > >>>>>> doing parcel
> area archiving? It would be an easy
> >>  > >>>> way to dedicate one
> >>  > >>>>>> subdivided
> parcel area for bringing things in and
> >>  > >>>> out of OpenSims that
> >>  > >>>>>> either use the
> mega region or just have a single
> >>  > >>>> region that is
> >>  > >>>>>> subdivided.
> >>  > >>>>>> Also the
> beauty of this would be in the future if
> >>  > >>>> you have renters or
> >>  > >>>>>> event
> >>  > >>>>>> spaces you can
> keep backups of just those spaces.
> >>  > >>>>> I'm not too sure
> if I get exactly what you mean.
> >>  > >>>> Are you talking about
> >>  > >>>>> archiving just the
> contents of a single parcel on a
> >>  > >>>> region?
> >>  > >>>>> --
> >>  > >>>>> justincc
> >>  > >>>>> Justin
> Clark-Casey
> >>  > >>>>> http://justincc.org
> >>  > >>>>>
> _______________________________________________
> >>  > >>>>> Opensim-users
> mailing list
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> >>  > >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >>  > >>>>>
> >>  > >>>>>
> >>  > >>>> --
> >>  > >>>> View this message in
> context:
> >>  > >>> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
> >>  > >>>> Sent from the
> opensim-users mailing list archive at
> >>  > >>>> Nabble.com.
> >>  > >>>>
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> >>  > >>>
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> _______________________________________________
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> >>  > >> --
> >>  > >> View this message in context:
> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-
> >>  > >> tp4008165p4042739.html
> >>  > >> Sent from the opensim-users
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Re: Parcel Archiver?

justincc
In reply to this post by Robert Klein
Robert Klein wrote:

> Wow, it is really starting to sound like we need a more robust tool for
> backing up, restoring, merging, and upgrading regions and parcels. The use
> case I have is my standalone has a region that has been subdivided into 32
> parcels. Each parcel is an office space where the user can personalize their
> own space. As people roll on and off projects I need to be able to backup a
> parcel and replace it with a blank one for the next user. If the original
> user comes back for another project I need to restore their office space to
> either the same spot or another spot that is available. I seriously do not
> want to backup and restore entire regions for each change of a tiny parcel.
> Also if you rent out an event space think of how easy it would be to just
> bring events up and down based on each time slot. This would give OpenSim a
> really cool and useful advantage.

The format I chose for OAR is an attempt to eventually make this kind of thing
easier, by using separate files for objects rather than bundling everything into
a single scene file.  We'll see whether this was a good idea or not (it may be
good for some things and bad for others).

I really like the debate that has been going on.  Here are some points from my
perspective.

* OAR merges are pretty trivial to do.  The biggest thing stopping me from doing
this, at least, is providing a switch such as --merge on the command line.  I
don't want to parse that manually but there is a suitably licensed DLL out there
that I can haul in.  This is a fairly high priority on my pro bono todo list.  I
think Nebadon previously suggested a "merge oar" instead which might be an
alternative.

* Updating existing objects via OAR is more awkward.  Even if UUIDs remained the
same for objects on load (which they don't for various reasons), the person
changing the original scene may create/delete an object which looks the same,
but ends up with an entirely different UUID.  This is annoying.  This may not
have been a use case that came up but it grabbed my imagination.

* Parcel info is being stored (and restored) in OARs, Dr Scofield made that
improvement some time ago (and it is in 0.6.7).

* I do intend to implement OAR saving of part of a region, and I'm sure that
this could be specified as a particular parcel.  Restoration will just dump the
contents in the same spot, regardless of parcel configuration (parcel
information wouldn't be saved in partial OARs).

* Filtering (e.g. by owner id) is an interesting idea.  As someone mentioned,
the permutations start to get complex.

* Direct support for OAR/IAR in some viewers would be very good.  In fact, jonc
did hack in OAR save/load by hijacking some terrain menu option in the Linden
viewer afair - I think the code is sitting on the forge.  Unfortunately, it felt
a little too hacky for me to put into core itself.

A better approach would be for viewers to implement a custom gui control panel
to load/save OARs and IARs.  The facility could then be exposed via an OpenSim
specific documented capability.  Of course, it would be a non-default option
since there will be big security concerns.  But it could be useful where OpenSim
is being used in applications and specific purpose private grids.

* One thing I play around with in my head is whether one could just lay out an
OAR directly on the filesystem, rather than loading it into the database.  Then
individual object files could be edited much like editing html files on a
webserver with the results seen in the 3D world.  Of course, there are massive
practical difficulties with this (unlike html the object file format is
undocumented and is nothing like a markup language, lots of opaque uuids
everywhere rather than human understandable urls, synchronization issues between
world and filesystem, etc., etc.).  And the usefulness seems very questionable -
editing a 3D world is very probably best done in 3D rather than in flatland.
Nonetheless, I'd be interested in any thoughts.  I think that Vastpark may be
doing something like this.

>
> -Robert
>
>
> Diva Canto wrote:
>> Yep, that's my use case too. More and more, the apps I'm involved with
>> include people building things in separate development sims, possibly
>> over copies of a base model, and then having a deployment sim where
>> things are merged periodically.
>>
>> Bob Wellman wrote:
>>> I agree with Diva it would be good if on Save_oar we could specify
>>> owner-id and then the saved file would only contain prims owned by that
>>> user. However it needs to be part of a bigger change I think in trems of
>>> loading oar being less all or nothing too.
>>>  
>>> One of the problems with LOAD_OAR at present is the way it replaces
>>> everything in a sim. It would be good if there were an option to replace
>>> or add to whats in a sim already with whats on the file being loaded.
>>> Maybe the replace/add options could be filtered to replace only parts of
>>> the build (eg. replace Nicks prims with the new oar of Nicks prims
>>> leaving Toms prims where they are).
>>>  
>>> The use case I am thinking of is where a sim (a city) is built by the
>>> sim owner (Nick) in a standalone grid and loaded via OAR files to a
>>> public grid. Then in that public grid other people (Tom) adds
>>> furnishings to the sim in the public grid. In the meantime the sim owner
>>> (Tom) makes a mark 2 version of the sim in his standalone which he wants
>>> to use to upgrade the one in the public grid. If he does load-oar he
>>> loses all the work done by others (Tom) in the public grid version. What
>>> he wants to do is merge his work with others. So we need someway to save
>>> each contribution and merge them.
>>>  
>>> I leave it to others wiser than me to devise a syntax for this.
>>>  
>>>  
>>>  > Date: Sat, 21 Nov 2009 07:51:55 -0800
>>>  > From: [hidden email]
>>>  > To: [hidden email]
>>>  > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>>>  >
>>>  > There are several kinds of filters one could add to the general
>>>  > archiving facility. Parcels... why not. Another one -- more important
>>> to
>>>  > me -- is owner id.
>>>  >
>>>  > Stefan Andersson wrote:
>>>  > > There is of course always the option to implement a region module
>>> that can
>>>  > > implement some fairly more detailed use case, maybe connecting to
>>> stuff like
>>>  > > scheduled jobs et c.
>>>  > >
>>>  > > /Stefan
>>>  > >
>>>  > >> -----Original Message-----
>>>  > >> From: [hidden email] [mailto:opensim-users-
>>>  > >> [hidden email]] On Behalf Of Robert Klein
>>>  > >> Sent: den 21 november 2009 15:24
>>>  > >> To: [hidden email]
>>>  > >> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >> I see your points and was only suggesting we have some refined way
>>> of
>>>  > >> backing
>>>  > >> up regions instead of either all or nothing. Even a basic program
>>> for
>>>  > >> backing up data on a computer allows you to backup either the whole
>>>  > >> disk,
>>>  > >> individual directories, and individual files (tar vs dd for
>>> example).
>>>  > >> We
>>>  > >> have methods for backing up the whole drive and individual files
>>> but
>>>  > >> not
>>>  > >> directories. It just seems unbalanced.
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >> I have seen some pretty intense builds in SL and OS on relatively
>>> small
>>>  > >> parcels that would be a huge issue to recreate. The IAR files are
>>> great
>>>  > >> but
>>>  > >> are not a reasonable method for backing up and restoring a 64 x 128
>>>  > >> parcel
>>>  > >> with several buildings full of content including a museum and
>>>  > >> stage/events
>>>  > >> area or a nightclub. Experience tells me we are going to need this
>>> if
>>>  > >> we
>>>  > >> continue to support the concept of having parcels.
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >> -Robert
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >> Stefan Andersson-3 wrote:
>>>  > >>> One way to go about it could be to make sure the oar is subdivided
>>>  > >> into
>>>  > >>> parcels when storing it; if so, one would probably backup the
>>> whole
>>>  > >> oar,
>>>  > >>> but
>>>  > >>> be able to restore only parts of the oar.
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> I have only used oars for full backup, so I don't know if the
>>> parcel
>>>  > >> info
>>>  > >>> is
>>>  > >>> already stored in it?
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> /Stefan
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> From: [hidden email]
>>>  > >>> [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Len
>>>  > >> Brown
>>>  > >>> Sent: den 21 november 2009 09:20
>>>  > >>> To: [hidden email]
>>>  > >>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> I am tempted to say that individual parcel backups is not a good
>>>  > >> idea. If
>>>  > >>> one is building on a parcel, as opposed to a full region, then
>>> simply
>>>  > >>> maintaining copies of their items in their inventory should be
>>>  > >> adequate.
>>>  > >>> Parcels come in so many sizes and making a backup would require
>>> the
>>>  > >> new
>>>  > >>> parcel for a restore would have to be identical in dimensions. So
>>>  > >> this
>>>  > >>> can
>>>  > >>> be very complex if you have a parcel that, for example, lies along
>>> a
>>>  > >> road
>>>  > >>> so
>>>  > >>> the side of your parcel is angular. Or if you have an odd-shaped
>>>  > >> parcel
>>>  > >>> or
>>>  > >>> a combination of parcels that are separated by other parcels you
>>> do
>>>  > >> not
>>>  > >>> own.
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> Backing up a region is simple enough given the standard
>>> dimensions,
>>>  > >> even
>>>  > >>> when dealing with megaregions, which are really just a combination
>>> of
>>>  > >>> multiple "regular" regions of standard size.
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> So I feel that backing up personal parcels should remain the
>>> process
>>>  > >> of
>>>  > >>> maintaining items in your personal inventory and making a backup
>>> of
>>>  > >> THAT
>>>  > >>> rather than the parcel area itself.
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> - Len W. Brown
>>>  > >>> [hidden email]
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> On Sat, Nov 21, 2009 at 1:16 AM, Karen Palen
>>> <[hidden email]>
>>>  > >>> wrote:
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> Just a thought, but with the economics of OpenSim being totally
>>>  > >> different
>>>  > >>> from Second Life, I wonder if we will end up with hundreds of tiny
>>>  > >> parcels
>>>  > >>> in each region?
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> It seems to me that there are several issues here concerning
>>> changes
>>>  > >> in
>>>  > >>> parcel size/location between backup and restore as well as some
>>>  > >>> ownership/covenant/zoning issues.
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> As I think about the problem I am not sure I (or anyone else) can
>>>  > >> fully
>>>  > >>> articulate even the nature of those issues since they depend
>>> heavily
>>>  > >> on
>>>  > >>> the
>>>  > >>> direction that OpenSim development and implementation takes.
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> Just the same we do need to consider them as best we can lest we
>>> fall
>>>  > >> into
>>>  > >>> some of the same traps as Second Life (content ownership, banking
>>>  > >> debacle,
>>>  > >>> and gambling come to mind).
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> Karen
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Robert Klein <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>> From: Robert Klein <[hidden email]>
>>>  > >>>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Parcel Archiver?
>>>  > >>>> To: [hidden email]
>>>  > >>>> Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 6:09 PM
>>>  > >>>>
>>>  > >>>> Hey Justin,
>>>  > >>>>
>>>  > >>>> Yes that is correct, just archive a single parcel on a
>>>  > >>>> region. Whatever is
>>>  > >>>> in the parcel gets put into the PAR file. Can it be done?
>>>  > >>>>
>>>  > >>>> -Robert
>>>  > >>>>
>>>  > >>>> justincc wrote:
>>>  > >>>>> Robert Klein wrote:
>>>  > >>>>>> We have a OAR for regions and a IAR for inventory
>>>  > >>>> but what about a PAR
>>>  > >>>>>> for
>>>  > >>>>>> doing parcel area archiving? It would be an easy
>>>  > >>>> way to dedicate one
>>>  > >>>>>> subdivided parcel area for bringing things in and
>>>  > >>>> out of OpenSims that
>>>  > >>>>>> either use the mega region or just have a single
>>>  > >>>> region that is
>>>  > >>>>>> subdivided.
>>>  > >>>>>> Also the beauty of this would be in the future if
>>>  > >>>> you have renters or
>>>  > >>>>>> event
>>>  > >>>>>> spaces you can keep backups of just those spaces.
>>>  > >>>>> I'm not too sure if I get exactly what you mean.
>>>  > >>>> Are you talking about
>>>  > >>>>> archiving just the contents of a single parcel on a
>>>  > >>>> region?
>>>  > >>>>> --
>>>  > >>>>> justincc
>>>  > >>>>> Justin Clark-Casey
>>>  > >>>>> http://justincc.org
>>>  > >>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>  > >>>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>>  > >>>>> [hidden email]
>>>  > >>>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>  > >>>>>
>>>  > >>>>>
>>>  > >>>> --
>>>  > >>>> View this message in context:
>>>  > >>> http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-tp4008165p4040934.html
>>>  > >>>> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at
>>>  > >>>> Nabble.com.
>>>  > >>>> _______________________________________________
>>>  > >>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>>  > >>>> [hidden email]
>>>  > >>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>  > >>>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> _______________________________________________
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>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> _______________________________________________
>>>  > >>> Opensim-users mailing list
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>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >> --
>>>  > >> View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/Parcel-Archiver-
>>>  > >> tp4008165p4042739.html
>>>  > >> Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>>  > >> _______________________________________________
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--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
http://justincc.org
http://twitter.com/justincc
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