Signal to NOISE ratio

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Signal to NOISE ratio

DZ-2
Folks,

James made a reasonable request. 
"How about taking these marathon email threads to a private CC list?"
 I will make it more explicit.

If you want to post to the list to share information useful to the general population of OpenSim users,   Please DO!!   Simple netiquette rules apply,   post it with a meaningful subject,  make it concise, and provide references to where more can be learned about the topic you wish to discuss.

Since the automated nature of this list sends emails to all recipients whenever you are too lazy to do anything other than hit a reply button, so you can post your  "I agree"...   PLEASE consider  cutting the RELEVANT part of the prior post..  and THEN consider if that is vitally important for us to know.   OTHERWISE  send an email to the person you agree with   instead of all of us.

If you want to post information about how "L33T' you are, how bad you think patent attorneys are, how DRM can be circumvented , or the fact that you personally hate sculpties,   Please DO NOT! 

If your intent is to flaunt the fact that you are intentionally violating the Linden labs terms of service or  boast about how efficient it is to get pirated content via this URL vs another,  Please  talk to a good lawyer and take those discussions elsewhere.  

There are a lot of people dedicating significant amounts of TIME and MONEY trying to make OpenSim a working application platform.   One of the  MAJOR hurdles to that effort is the fact that anyone who comes to see what the user community is about sees POST after POST after POST detailing your basic disregard for the concepts of content ownership.     They AREN'T going to read your sentence at the end where you "disclaim" any relationship with the folks generating tools designed to rip legitimate content.  

Honestly.   Please..   If your bitch with Linden Labs is about your inability to make backups of the things you designed on the SL platform, take it to their forums.   Your postss here do nothing to resolve that issue.  Your continued discussion of methods of exporting SL content to OpenSim just makes us ALL look like we share your disregard for the contract you entered when you agreed to use SL.    There are dedicated efforts to making legitimate backup tools for content creators in OpenSim.  Once those tools are in place, OpenSim will have a competitive advantage.  That advantage will be useless when all of our future customers are wondering if we are still using all of these other "tools".





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Correcting some errors was Re: Signal to NOISE ratio

Karen_Palen
There seem to be some issues here that are of general interest so I will post them as a reply.

FWIW I am currently registered to practice as a US Patent Agent with the USPTO - I will be happy to supply my registration number etc. on request. I mention this as my credential for some of the comments later in this posting - I DO know something about IP law and piracy issues!

To my knowledge the ONLY "complaint about patent lawyers" was by Diva a few weeks ago.

My only disagreement with what she said is that the "rot" is far more widespread than merely software patents. If anyone actually wants to work on changing this I can put you in touch with a friend of mine who is actively working with the various Bar Associations on many of these issues. You do not have to be a lawyer to help!

--- On Thu, 2/25/10, dz <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: dz <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Opensim-users] Signal to NOISE ratio

>
> If you want to post information about
[snip]
> how DRM can be circumvented
[snip]
> Please DO NOT! 

I disagree!

The mystique about DRM, the resultant "snake oil" sales, vigilante "justice", and "witch hunts" are among the factors that are holding up achieving a realistic and lasting solution to the "piracy" problem!

> If your intent is to flaunt the fact that you are
> intentionally violating the Linden labs terms of service

Please be more specific here. I know of nothing in the TOS that does not allow me to move content that I have created to my own system!

> or  boast about how efficient it is to get pirated content
> via this URL vs another, 

For some reason you seem to be assuming that since I no longer buy content from Second Life that I must be pirating it! That is simply not true!

I am not buying content on Second Life for the same reasons that someone who purchased some music (1) on vinyl records, (2) on 8 track tapes, (3) cassette tapes, and (4) yet AGAIN on a CD does not see why they should pay yet again for that same music on MP3!

That is not piracy, the legal doctrines are "fair use" and "first sale" if you care to research them, Wikipedia does a fairly good job of explaining them and I will look up the case law if you really want.

The content that I am moving from Second Life to MY sim are one or more of these:

1) Stuff I built myself

2) Full permissions under SL DRM system (when purchased or obtained that way)

3) Moved with the explicit permission (sometimes at the request of) the creator.

I add the caveat to 2 above since about half of my SL inventory is now "full perm" due to a Second Life database glitch that reset the all of the permission flags. ALL of that content remains on SL only!


> There are a lot of people dedicating significant amounts of
> TIME and MONEY trying to make OpenSim a working application
> platform. 

I am well aware of that since I too am one of the contributors.

> One of the  MAJOR hurdles to that effort is
> the fact that anyone who comes to see what the user
> community is about sees POST after POST after POST detailing
> your basic disregard for the concepts of content
> ownership.    

I am not sure just what "concepts of content ownership" comprises.

US law grants certain limited rights to the creator of a product although there are a great many legal issues yet to be resolved with "virtual content". There are some very definite limits to those rights as well!

By contrast there are the "rights" claimed by RIAA, MPAA, and some software companies, most notably Microsoft. In simple terms what they claim is that "software" is a "work" not a "product". This claim has never been upheld in court and in fact has been denied on several limited occasions. There is presently a US Federal court case which directly addresses this issue and might well provide some guidance.

In short this is no different that people who loudly proclaim an unlimited "right to bear arms". The US Supreme court made its first ruling on parts of this issue last year - everything else is just "screaming and shouting"!

Until something similar exists for "virtual content" these claims too are nothing but "screaming and shouting".

You don't have to like it, but it IS the law!

> They AREN'T going to read your
> sentence at the end where you "disclaim" any
> relationship with the folks generating tools designed to rip
> legitimate content.  

I don't "disclaim" any such relationship! I have not personally written any of the tools that are being passed around, but I have used many of them for the purposes I stated above.

Look up "guilt by association".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guilt_by_association

I can't think of any viewer (including the new LL beta viewer) that cannot be used for some unlawful or improper use. The moral and legal offense is not in merely possessing such a tool, but in using it in such a way!

> Honestly.   Please..   If your bitch with Linden Labs
> is about your inability to make backups of the things you
> designed on the SL platform, take it to their forums.

Actually I think Linden Labs has done a reasonable job given the constraints they have. Second Inventory is designed for the backup function (SL to SL) and is slowly evolving into a reasonable tool to do just that. It could be used for "piracy" of some sort, but certainly is not designed for that!

My "bitch" is with the vigilante groups who want instant solutions or the appearance of such solutions. This rapidly becomes simple fraud.
 
> Your postss here do nothing to resolve that issue.

My goal here is to try to stop this hysteria from spreading to the OpenSim community.
 
> Your
> continued discussion of methods of exporting SL content to
> OpenSim just makes us ALL look like we share your disregard
> for the contract you entered when you agreed to use
> SL.   

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contract_of_adhesion#Contracts_of_adhesion

I know of nothing in LL policy or elsewhere which forbids me from moving content in the three categories I set forth above to my own sim!

Do you?

> There are dedicated efforts to making legitimate
> backup tools for content creators in OpenSim.  Once those
> tools are in place, OpenSim will have a competitive
> advantage. 

First of all I don't consider OpenSim to be in competition with Second Life.

Secondly my understanding is that both SL and OpenSim are working on this problem - they are complimentary not mutually exclusive!

> That advantage will be useless when all of our
> future customers are wondering if we are still using all of
> these other "tools".

You seem to assume that OpenSim must somehow become a "clone" of Second Life.

What comes to mind is the similar situation with Linux and Windows:

http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW.htm

(I admit it this is one of my favorite articles LOL)

My plans for OpenSim and my advice to the grid managers that have asked for my help is to avoid becoming a "commercial entity" if you can, but if you do be very aware of what that implies. There are legal issues, social issues, and political issues involved. Not the least of these issues is that a "commercial" grid MUST cater heavily to its merchant's wants and desires before it caters to the "average" user!

My own sim is intended simply as my own playground and may never be opened to access by more than a few close friends.

There are several purely social grids already, as well as grids devoted to Architecture, Education, and experimental Art.

"Theft of content" is almost a non-issue with most of these grids!

I am sure that if you took a survey of OpenSim people (users and developers) you would get almost as many "visions" of what OpenSim should be as there are people!

About the only thing that I have heard agreement about is that OpenSim should NOT be a "clone" of Second Life!

To me that would be like trying to compete with Wall-Mart.

Karen


     
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Re: Correcting some errors

Michael Cortez-3
From: Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
 > That is not piracy, the legal doctrines are "fair use" and
 > "first sale" if you care to research them, Wikipedia does a
 > fairly good job of explaining them and I will look up the
 > case law if you really want.
 >
 > The content that I am moving from Second Life to MY sim are
 > one or more of these:
 >
 > 1) Stuff I built myself
 >
 > 2) Full permissions under SL DRM system (when purchased or
 > obtained that way)
 >
 > 3) Moved with the explicit permission (sometimes at the
 > request of) the creator.
 >
 > I add the caveat to 2 above since about half of my SL
 > inventory is now "full perm" due to a Second Life database
 > glitch that reset the all of the permission flags. ALL of
 > that content remains on SL only!

I am somewhat curious about your opinion on the argument that the legal
doctrines of Fair Use and First Sale don't actually apply to content in
Second Life because you are not actually purchasing a tangible good.

Rather, some argue that you are purchasing a license for the use of
content within the framework of the virtual world -- where within that
framework you are licensed the ability to optionally Copy, Transfer or
Edit the content.

Therefore, because you have not actually purchased a good and the
license specifically applies only to that virtual world, transferring or
otherwise using the content outside of that framework is a violation of
your license.  The analogy being, electronic purchase of a license to
use software (such as Adobe Creative Suite [Photoshop], or Turbo Tax)
where that license generally permits you to install the software on a
limited number of computers, and does not permit you to resell, give
away, or otherwise transfer ownership (of the license or the product.)

When I first heard this argument, the person promoting it backed it with
verbiage from the Linden Labs' Second Life Terms of Service where it
indicated that creators of software were *licensing* their content for
use *within* the system.

Now of course, purchasing products outside of the system via the various
websites complicates matters -- because those sales don't take place
within the system in the first place -- but the products are delivered
within that system.

Feel free to reply off-list, as I'm not going to delve much into the
argument -- just curious since you indicated that you "DO know something
about IP law."

--
Michael Cortez




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Re: Correcting some errors

Karen Palen
Note the new email address - yhaoo now flags my outgoing mail as spam! Maybe they know somehting I don't, but I am switching my email accounts to Gmail anyway!

Karen


Well it is fundamental enough that I think I should reply on list.

Unfortunately is is not a simple question so the answer is long. I have labeled my conclusions as "The Bottom Line" if you just want to read that, just don't gripe about the conclusions if you haven't read the rest!

Essentially there are two "doctrines". One is from copyright law in which content is "licensed" for specific uses by the copyright owner, right to play a movie or reprint a book for example.

The other is derived from patent law in which the owner has a limited right to "make use or sell" the invention - and (historically) assumes that the "invention" is some tangible object like a printing press.

Presently we in virtual worlds are in the business of selling things which are "neither fish nor fowl"! Things like "virtual objects" and "software" are not "works" in the sense of copyright law since they have a useful function, on the other hand they are not tangible objects like a printing press.

As a result it is unclear just what a "first sale" really comprises, even less clear is how "fair use" should apply. In addition copyright law has traditionally allowed a "scholars exemption" by which anyone can make a single copy of a publication for study. There are also a huge number of other issues which are simply beyond the scope of this text.

If these things are really "objects" then first sale would apply, if they are merely works then "fair use" would apply.

For various reasons (not entirely greed BTW!) sellers of "software" and "virtual goods" claim that neither doctrine applies and that only "licensing" for specific purposes is valid.

Part of the problem is that if you ever voluntarily "give up" (or disclaim) a right then you can never reclaim that right. No one really knows which rights will be important in the future so the prudent thing to do is claim ALL rights!

This is where many of the absurdities of present day practice arise, things like claiming that "ripping" my own (legally purchased) CDs to my own MP3 player is somehow unlawful.

The entire situation with "backup" copies of software is another example.

The question of whether "first sale" or "fair use" applies to virtual goods has not been addressed by the courts as far as I know. As a result the law is essentially silent on this issue! This is a common situation in many areas of law and one in which lawyers actually earn their money!

I am not aware of any thing in the current Second Life TOS which would restrict products which *I* have made and sold to being used only within Second Life by the purchasers!

It is possible that some implied contract could exist between seller and buyer (source of many incredibly long and useless "purchase agreements"), but without that then the law is again silent.

Certainly in 2007 and 2008 there was no such thing if only because no one thought it could happen!

In the US the law is that you can do whatever you want unless there is some law to say you cannot! That is not so in most other countries BTW!

That means that there is and always will be a huge "gray area" in the law where no statute ("black letter law") or judges decision ("case law") exists to tell you exactly what you are allowed to do or not do!

The "gray area" runs the entire spectrum from "very dark" (probably unlawful) to "very light" (almost certainly OK). In practice almost nothing is totally "black" or "white"!

One of the most important tasks of a lawyer is to figure out where a certain set of actions (facts) fit into this spectrum, provide guidance to their client as to the best way to proceed, and then back up that advise with their malpractice insurance!

IP law for software still has a lot of unresolved issues, the concept of virtual goods has far more!

To a large extent this is due to the fact that there is very little experience to tell the courts or the legislatures just what the effects of these issues really are. To some extent this is because neither body really understand the issues or even the concepts involved, although it is surprising just how much the best of these bodies really DO understand.

A review of the US Supreme Court decisions (on-line) will quickly illustrate what I mean. The language is surprisingly readable and considers a huge range of issues.

One of the most far reaching decisions ever was Roe V Wade:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade#Supreme_Court_decision

Reading the actual text and attempting to refute the justice's arguments quickly reveals the depth of their understanding of the underlying issues:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=410&invol=113

Whichever side of the argument you support, it is really hard to find fault with the arguments raised there. No one has actually found an argument that has persuaded the courts despite nearly 40 years of intense effort!

There are certainly similar decisions coming in IP law concerning software and "virtual goods".

The "Bottom Line"
-----------------
DISCLAIMER: THIS IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE, BUT IS EDUCATIONAL MATERIAL BASED ONLY ON MY GENERAL KNOWLEDGE OF THIS AREA OF THE LAW!

CONSULT A LAWYER TO SEE HOW THIS APPLIES TO YOUR SITUATION!

There are some things that carry over from "real products" very well - if you copy someone's furniture that they are selling in SL and then resell that furniture without permission you can expect harsh penalties, possibly even jail time!

If you make a backup for your own use and DO NOT "share" that backup with anyone else then you will likely not be penalized.

Moving (not merely copying) something from Second Life to ONE OpenSim grid likewise should be allowed.

This still leaves many questions where really no one knows the answer.

"Abandonware", that is a "work" where the owner/author cannot be found. The typical solution in a commercial setting is to set aside an allowance for later discovery of the owners AFTER a genuine and "diligent" search has failed to find them. This does not always work however

Google is currently dealing with this problem in their project to add most books that are no longer in print to their search engine.

Moving free stuff to OpenSim or to SL (or the reverse). Unless the creator has explicitly forbidden this then there is no restriction implied. Many things which are free in OpenSim are for sale on Second Life and come with a caveat that the free version never be moved to Second Life for example.

DRM (including Second Life DRM) legally is merely an indicator of owner's intent when the restrictions are placed by the creator. Often the restrictions are just a result of repackaging defaults or re-packaging free goods for some promotion. In this case you would be free to move the original items, but not the package.

In short the courts generally use a "reasonable person" standard - what would a "reasonable person" do in this situation. The problem of course is that "reasonable" is determined by the judge maybe many years after the event!

I hope this clears up some of the problems, it is a complex situation. However fervent claims by content creators (or others) really count as nothing more than "screaming and shouting" or "bullying"!

Karen

--- On Sun, 2/28/10, Michael Cortez <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Michael Cortez <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Correcting some errors
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Sunday, February 28, 2010, 3:09 PM
> From: Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
> > That is not piracy, the legal doctrines are "fair use"
> and
> > "first sale" if you care to research them, Wikipedia
> does a
> > fairly good job of explaining them and I will look up
> the
> > case law if you really want.
> >
> > The content that I am moving from Second Life to MY
> sim are
> > one or more of these:
> >
> > 1) Stuff I built myself
> >
> > 2) Full permissions under SL DRM system (when
> purchased or
> > obtained that way)
> >
> > 3) Moved with the explicit permission (sometimes at
> the
> > request of) the creator.
> >
> > I add the caveat to 2 above since about half of my SL
> > inventory is now "full perm" due to a Second Life
> database
> > glitch that reset the all of the permission flags. ALL
> of
> > that content remains on SL only!
>
> I am somewhat curious about your opinion on the argument
> that the legal doctrines of Fair Use and First Sale don't
> actually apply to content in Second Life because you are not
> actually purchasing a tangible good.
>
> Rather, some argue that you are purchasing a license for
> the use of content within the framework of the virtual world
> -- where within that framework you are licensed the ability
> to optionally Copy, Transfer or Edit the content.
>
> Therefore, because you have not actually purchased a good
> and the license specifically applies only to that virtual
> world, transferring or otherwise using the content outside
> of that framework is a violation of your license.  The
> analogy being, electronic purchase of a license to use
> software (such as Adobe Creative Suite [Photoshop], or Turbo
> Tax) where that license generally permits you to install the
> software on a limited number of computers, and does not
> permit you to resell, give away, or otherwise transfer
> ownership (of the license or the product.)
>
> When I first heard this argument, the person promoting it

> backed it with verbiage from the Linden Labs' Second Life
> Terms of Service where it indicated that creators of
> software were *licensing* their content for use *within* the
> system.
>
> Now of course, purchasing products outside of the system
> via the various websites complicates matters -- because
> those sales don't take place within the system in the first
> place -- but the products are delivered within that system.
>
> Feel free to reply off-list, as I'm not going to delve much
> into the argument -- just curious since you indicated that
> you "DO know something about IP law."
>
> --
> Michael Cortez
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>







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Re: Correcting some errors

Master_Mirage
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
To me, i have been under the impression that what is made on a grid is realy just data. The user has agreed that the Data is under the sole discretion of the system owner. The data exists within the system owners hardware. The system owner has a great deal to say about how the data can be used.
That would include sale,copying,mis-use or loss of it. If the user exports the systems data could that not alone constitute theft or breach of agreement with the system owner?
Untill recently SL was a closed system, the data had no place togo other than to remain with in it.
So mabey the real problem is who actauly owns the data. The system owner or the user?

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Re: Correcting some errors

Karen_Palen
This post was updated on .
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Re: Correcting some errors

Karen Palen
In reply to this post by Michael Cortez-3
      This is exactly the kind of dilemma that i am talking about.

This is like saying that a printing press is made up of atoms and molecules!

True, but only part of the story.

By analogy you have a lot of personal data stored in your bank's computers.

The bank certainly controls that data, but there are all kinds of implications to that data which also control what the may do with it!

Privacy laws, banking laws, your rights (it is YOUR money!) to name only a few.

"Data" can even be unlawful and get you serious jail time! For example images of a child being abused (child porn) or plans for the next 9/11 attack.

I hate it when an email provider goes nuts :-( Hopefully this will be temporary!

Karen

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Re: Correcting some errors

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by Karen_Palen
If my thinking is correct, its not evan about what the data contains. If someone has copyed the data from another computer with out permision of the systems owner to do so, Thats just stealing no matter how yah slice it.
A user would have abused the system in someway to do it. requiring for thought on there part.
The system owner has responcabuiltys to the user is someways as a matter of trust and its in there best intrest to take all resionable efforts to protect it. A user the sec thay make something in away has given that data to the owner of the system. The system owner has the actual product and is the only one that can truly prove if data has been taken with out permision and can show what the data was. Thay have possion of it.
So really 'who made the toilet' dosent really matter in this context. If sl (system owner) has not given you permision to xport its data, and do it anyway. You have just stolen it! Hacked there computers and copyed data reguardlless of the datas content. The words theft by wire come to mind.
Im shure theres alot of laws SL could use agaisnt someone along thoughs lines i feel thay are well with in there rights to do so.
I know nothing of law and dont claim to but to me it stands to reasion.
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Yahoo! Auto Response

Karen_Palen
This post was updated on .
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Re: Yahoo! Auto Response

Master_Mirage
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
I dont think its just you, im getting the same thing and im not using yahoo. Ill copy this over to the other place. allready started a thread there anyway.
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Re: correcting some errors

Karen Palen
In reply to this post by Michael Cortez-3
The problem is I don't see any place where Second Life forbids this in their TOS!

Even if they had such a provision, Linde Labs has no more right to your creations than the bank has to your money solely by virtue of using their computers!

Karen


If my thinking is correct, its not evan about what the data contains. If someone has copyed the data from another computer with out permision of the systems owner to do so, Thats just stealing no matter how yah slice it.
A user would have abused the system in someway to do it. requiring for thought on there part.
The system owner has responcabuiltys to the user is someways as a matter of trust and its in there best intrest to take all resionable efforts to protect it. A user the sec thay make something in away has given that data to the owner of the system. The system owner has the actual product and is the only one that can truly prove if data has been taken with out permision and can show what the data was. Thay have possion of it.
So really 'who made the toilet' dosent really matter in this context. If sl (system owner) has not given you permision to xport its data, and do it anyway. You have just stolen it! Hacked there computers and copyed data reguardlless of the datas content. The words theft by wire come to mind.
Im shure theres alot of laws SL could use agaisnt someone along thoughs lines i feel thay are well with in there rights to do so.
I know nothing of law and dont claim to but to me it stands to reasion.

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Re: correcting some errors

Master_Mirage
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
<quote author="Karen Palen">
The problem is I don't see any place where Second Life forbids this in their
TOS!

 + If i wore a sign that says "Shooting me is not allowed" does that mean others that dont have one its      ok to shoot them just not me?
 + I dont think a system owner has to show where thay said one cant hack and copy the data from there systems.
 + The burden of proof would lie on the user to show where thay had permision to xport data not the other  way around.
 + If there were an agreement between the user and system owner that the user can use to show thay do have permision's to do it, ok thats something differnt.
 
 
Even if they had such a provision, Linde Labs has no more right to your
creations than the bank has to your money solely by virtue of using their
computers!

Karen


If my thinking is correct, its not evan about what the data contains. If
someone has copyed the data from another computer with out permision of the
systems owner to do so, Thats just stealing no matter how yah slice it.
A user would have abused the system in someway to do it. requiring for
thought on there part.
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Re: Correcting some errors

Karen Palen
In reply to this post by Master_Mirage
OK it looks like the remailer seems to be working again, so I will respond yet again to this.
I apologize if anyone has already received my earlier responses to this, but they seem to have ended up in the bit-bucket!

Master_Mirage,

There are three flaws in your logic:

1) Ownership of data. I cited the example of a bank's data concerning your account. An even better example is the work done on your behalf by an attorney. The data ("work product") is actually owned by the client even though it is stored on the attorney's computer in the attorney's office! There are cases where attorney's have been disbarred for willfully failing to promptly deliver this data to the client when asked. There is also quite a large body of case law which reinforce this notion that the data is owned ONLY by the client! The attorney cannot even retain a copy without the client's permission!

2) Linden Labs TOS
I am not aware of any specific TOS condition which would forbid my doing whatever I want with data that I have created and/or have "full rights" to! To the contrary, Linden Labs has worked with many groups to help make this happen in an acceptable way.
For example, both the Hypergrid effort and the Second Inventory software have ongoing dialogs with Linden Labs about how best to accomplish their goals. Obviously Linden Labs has many concerns about proprietary or copyrighted material and much of the dialogues has gone towards making sure that these concerns are addressed.

3) The real location of the data
Both the ethical/legal backups (e.g Second Inventory) and the blatant piracy tools (e.g. copybot, cryogen) work from data that is already sent to your computer in order to make the viewer work!
In other words they simply save information (data) that is already on your computer!
I am aware of very few actual attempts to "hack" the Second Life databases themselves.
The most recent "exploit" of this sort was a couple of weeks ago where someone had figured out a way to obtain "in world" purchases without a payment coming from their account!
I need hardly expand on the consequences of such a "hack"!
This one caused an "emergency rollout" of a fix with the entire grid being restarted.
If you are "in world" very much I am sure you remember it, if not it is well documented in the Linden Labs Maintenance blog.



In a related item, I have just been reading the Second Life blogs about There.com shutting down next week (March 9).

It appears that all products uploaded or sold on There.com had to be approved by their management. They had strict controls over content theft and PG13 only content.
The problem was that this required a large staff to manually inspect everything uploaded or offered for sale! They charged a total of US$4/item/transaction for this, and that seems to not have been enough!
In other words this kind of strict enforcement is possible, but it will cost a lot of money. I seriously doubt if the Second Life (or any other) virtual economy could generate enough revenue to support a US$4/item/transaction overhead no matter how desirable this might seem!
Clearly There.com could not make that work at least!

Karen

On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Master_Mirage <[hidden email]> wrote:

If my thinking is correct, its not evan about what the data contains. If
someone has copyed the data from another computer with out permision of the
systems owner to do so, Thats just stealing no matter how yah slice it.
A user would have abused the system in someway to do it. requiring for
thought on there part.
The system owner has responcabuiltys to the user is someways as a matter of
trust and its in there best intrest to take all resionable efforts to
protect it. A user the sec thay make something in away has given that data
to the owner of the system. The system owner has the actual product and is
the only one that can truly prove if data has been taken with out permision
and can show what the data was. Thay have possion of it.
So really 'who made the toilet' dosent really matter in this context. If sl
(system owner) has not given you permision to xport its data, and do it
anyway. You have just stolen it! Hacked there computers and copyed data
reguardlless of the datas content. The words theft by wire come to mind.
Im shure theres alot of laws SL could use agaisnt someone along thoughs
lines i feel thay are well with in there rights to do so.
I know nothing of law and dont claim to but to me it stands to reasion.

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Re: Correcting some errors

DZ-2
In reply to this post by Michael Cortez-3
Karen says....

++++++++++++++
 I am not aware of any specific TOS condition which would forbid my doing whatever I want with data that I have created and/or have  "full rights" to! To the contrary, Linden Labs has worked with many groups to help make this happen in an acceptable way.
For example, both the Hypergrid effort and the Second Inventory software have ongoing dialogs with Linden Labs about how best to accomplish their goals. Obviously Linden Labs has many concerns about proprietary or copyrighted material and much of the dialogues has gone towards making sure that these concerns are addressed.
++++++++++++++


Incorporated by reference into the TOS is the policy regarding third party viewers....( the tools you are using to exercise your  RIGHT to remove content ).   It is now  VERY explicit!

http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php

a short perusal reveals that it contains a section on the features  expressly PROHIBITED in third party tools,  and is quite clear that use of such tools is a violation of your contract of service, and can result in a permanant BAN.  


..."You must not use or provide any functionality that Linden Lab’s viewers do not have for exporting content from Second Life unless the functionality verifies that the content to be exported was created by the Second Life user who is using the Third-Party Viewer. Specifically, before allowing the user to export the content, the Third-Party Viewer must verify that the Second Life creator name for each and every content component to be exported, including each and every primitive or other content type, is the same as the Second Life name of the Third-Party Viewer user. This must be done for all content in Second Life, including content that may be set to “full permissions.”....

Please STOP posting your "opinions" about  what you and other MAY THINK they have the the right to do here.   Exporting content that does NOT have YOU and only YOU as the creator of  ALL of the bits  is expressly prohibited.  

Feel free to correct me when you win your argument in a court of law against Linden Labs

D


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Re: Correcting some errors

Karen Palen
In words of one syllable or less - where does that forbid what I am doing?

I am using tools which "verifies that the content to be exported was created by the Second Life user who is using the Third-Party Viewer"

If *I* create the content then what is forbidden here?

Please stop quoting things which do not exist!

I would add a practical note that this is impossible to enforce this ban unless Linden Labs somehow searches my computer - thus violating the law themselves!

Karen

On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:08 PM, dz <[hidden email]> wrote:
Karen says....

++++++++++++++

 I am not aware of any specific TOS condition which would forbid my doing whatever I want with data that I have created and/or have  "full rights" to! To the contrary, Linden Labs has worked with many groups to help make this happen in an acceptable way.
For example, both the Hypergrid effort and the Second Inventory software have ongoing dialogs with Linden Labs about how best to accomplish their goals. Obviously Linden Labs has many concerns about proprietary or copyrighted material and much of the dialogues has gone towards making sure that these concerns are addressed.
++++++++++++++


Incorporated by reference into the TOS is the policy regarding third party viewers....( the tools you are using to exercise your  RIGHT to remove content ).   It is now  VERY explicit!

http://secondlife.com/corporate/tpv.php

a short perusal reveals that it contains a section on the features  expressly PROHIBITED in third party tools,  and is quite clear that use of such tools is a violation of your contract of service, and can result in a permanant BAN.  


..."You must not use or provide any functionality that Linden Lab’s viewers do not have for exporting content from Second Life unless the functionality verifies that the content to be exported was created by the Second Life user who is using the Third-Party Viewer. Specifically, before allowing the user to export the content, the Third-Party Viewer must verify that the Second Life creator name for each and every content component to be exported, including each and every primitive or other content type, is the same as the Second Life name of the Third-Party Viewer user. This must be done for all content in Second Life, including content that may be set to “full permissions.”....

Please STOP posting your "opinions" about  what you and other MAY THINK they have the the right to do here.   Exporting content that does NOT have YOU and only YOU as the creator of  ALL of the bits  is expressly prohibited.  

Feel free to correct me when you win your argument in a court of law against Linden Labs

D


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