Sim size limits

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Sim size limits

David Burden

At the risk of opening a real can of worms, what is the potential in the future of changing the 256m x 256m limit on sim size, and even moving to a single, near limitless sim. 

It is the one feature of OpenSim that stops us using it/proposing it for some of the really big projects we're involved with, where even modelling just a 2km x 2km area becomes unthinkable in OpenSim (64 sims?), but is trivial in environments like Unity. I know that grids have total sizes well over this, but generally each sim is operating on its own, with few buildings overlapping sim boundaries and people being very conscious of boundary crossings, and trying to automate an object from one sim to another if non-trivial. In terms of our aspirations just getting to 1/2/3km sims would make a huge difference, even if we had to stick with existing prim limits.

I think that RealXTend Tundra has removed the limitation, and Vastpark (which also has some OpenSim heritage) has. Are we ever likely to see a change in OpenSim (and if it's "just" a case of money, then how much effort?)


David

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Re: Sim size limits

James Stallings II
Enter Megaregions. Not perfect, but they work. I run one that is 1.25km square on OSgrid (Shambala).

Cheers
James/Hiro

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 6:36 AM, David Burden <[hidden email]> wrote:

At the risk of opening a real can of worms, what is the potential in the future of changing the 256m x 256m limit on sim size, and even moving to a single, near limitless sim. 

It is the one feature of OpenSim that stops us using it/proposing it for some of the really big projects we're involved with, where even modelling just a 2km x 2km area becomes unthinkable in OpenSim (64 sims?), but is trivial in environments like Unity. I know that grids have total sizes well over this, but generally each sim is operating on its own, with few buildings overlapping sim boundaries and people being very conscious of boundary crossings, and trying to automate an object from one sim to another if non-trivial. In terms of our aspirations just getting to 1/2/3km sims would make a huge difference, even if we had to stick with existing prim limits.

I think that RealXTend Tundra has removed the limitation, and Vastpark (which also has some OpenSim heritage) has. Are we ever likely to see a change in OpenSim (and if it's "just" a case of money, then how much effort?)


David

David Burden
Daden Limited

t: <a href="tel:%2B44%20%280%29121%20250%205677" value="+441212505677" target="_blank">+44 (0)121 250 5677
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w: www.daden.co.uk
skype: daden5
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Re: Sim size limits

Sarge Misfit
In reply to this post by David Burden
Just butting in with the info that AuroraSim has such a feature called variable region. AuroraSim is a fork from OpenSim, and is almost fully compatible, that is you can use OpenSim content in AuroraSim. They also have something called infinite regions that allows you to travel through the "no-man's-land- between regions.

And I would LOVE to see those in OpenSim!

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 4:36 AM, David Burden <[hidden email]> wrote:

At the risk of opening a real can of worms, what is the potential in the future of changing the 256m x 256m limit on sim size, and even moving to a single, near limitless sim. 

It is the one feature of OpenSim that stops us using it/proposing it for some of the really big projects we're involved with, where even modelling just a 2km x 2km area becomes unthinkable in OpenSim (64 sims?), but is trivial in environments like Unity. I know that grids have total sizes well over this, but generally each sim is operating on its own, with few buildings overlapping sim boundaries and people being very conscious of boundary crossings, and trying to automate an object from one sim to another if non-trivial. In terms of our aspirations just getting to 1/2/3km sims would make a huge difference, even if we had to stick with existing prim limits.

I think that RealXTend Tundra has removed the limitation, and Vastpark (which also has some OpenSim heritage) has. Are we ever likely to see a change in OpenSim (and if it's "just" a case of money, then how much effort?)


David

David Burden
Daden Limited

t: <a href="tel:%2B44%20%280%29121%20250%205677" value="+441212505677" target="_blank">+44 (0)121 250 5677
m: 07811 266 199
e: [hidden email]
w: www.daden.co.uk
skype: daden5
twitter: www.twitter.com/davidburden
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Daden specialise in creating immersive learning & visualisation systems, and interactive virtual agents.





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Re: Sim size limits

drwhiet@spacefriends.de
In reply to this post by David Burden
one could use megaregions ( beware there comes small gremlins with it ) 
and the Aurora Distribution has variable sizeable regions ..
 
Your question would / could be better answered by using the [hidden email] list
as this is a developer question/answer thing..
 
And as far as i know it is not about money in opensim development its about contribution
from people wwho can do magic for us all .. (-> no insult ; mayby the tone just got lost in translation)
 
best regards
Wordfromthe Wise ..


Von: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] Im Auftrag von David Burden
Gesendet: Freitag, 16. März 2012 12:37
An: [hidden email]
Betreff: [Opensim-users] Sim size limits


At the risk of opening a real can of worms, what is the potential in the future of changing the 256m x 256m limit on sim size, and even moving to a single, near limitless sim. 

It is the one feature of OpenSim that stops us using it/proposing it for some of the really big projects we're involved with, where even modelling just a 2km x 2km area becomes unthinkable in OpenSim (64 sims?), but is trivial in environments like Unity. I know that grids have total sizes well over this, but generally each sim is operating on its own, with few buildings overlapping sim boundaries and people being very conscious of boundary crossings, and trying to automate an object from one sim to another if non-trivial. In terms of our aspirations just getting to 1/2/3km sims would make a huge difference, even if we had to stick with existing prim limits.

I think that RealXTend Tundra has removed the limitation, and Vastpark (which also has some OpenSim heritage) has. Are we ever likely to see a change in OpenSim (and if it's "just" a case of money, then how much effort?)


David

David Burden
Daden Limited

t: +44 (0)121 250 5677
m: 07811 266 199
e: [hidden email]
w: www.daden.co.uk
skype: daden5
twitter: www.twitter.com/davidburden
sl IM: Corro Moseley

Daden specialise in creating immersive learning & visualisation systems, and interactive virtual agents.





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Re: Sim size limits

InuYasha Meiji
HEHE, so I guess if I won the powerball and decided to put together a
corporation that would hire all the opensim programmers to work on
opensim, being paid more then their day job to quit the day job and work
only on opensim would be a mistake and get us no where?? ;)

aaww I thought IF I win, that was my dream.
InuYasha.


On 3/16/2012 5:27 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

> one could use megaregions ( beware there comes small gremlins with it )
> and the Aurora Distribution has variable sizeable regions ..
> Your question would / could be better answered by using the
> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> list
> as this is a developer question/answer thing..
> And as far as i know it is not about money in opensim development its
> about contribution
> from people wwho can do magic for us all .. (-> no insult ; mayby the
> tone just got lost in translation)
> best regards
> Wordfromthe Wise ..
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Von:* [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] *Im Auftrag von *David
> Burden
> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 16. März 2012 12:37
> *An:* [hidden email]
> *Betreff:* [Opensim-users] Sim size limits
>
>
> At the risk of opening a real can of worms, what is the potential in
> the future of changing the 256m x 256m limit on sim size, and even
> moving to a single, near limitless sim.
>
> It is the one feature of OpenSim that stops us using it/proposing it
> for some of the really big projects we're involved with, where even
> modelling just a 2km x 2km area becomes unthinkable in OpenSim (64
> sims?), but is trivial in environments like Unity. I know that grids
> have total sizes well over this, but generally each sim is operating
> on its own, with few buildings overlapping sim boundaries and people
> being very conscious of boundary crossings, and trying to automate an
> object from one sim to another if non-trivial. In terms of our
> aspirations just getting to 1/2/3km sims would make a huge difference,
> even if we had to stick with existing prim limits.
>
> I think that RealXTend Tundra has removed the limitation, and Vastpark
> (which also has some OpenSim heritage) has. Are we ever likely to see
> a change in OpenSim (and if it's "just" a case of money, then how much
> effort?)
>
>
> David
>
> David Burden
> Daden Limited
>
> t: +44 (0)121 250 5677
> m: 07811 266 199
> e: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> w: www.daden.co.uk <http://www.daden.co.uk>
> skype: daden5
> twitter: www.twitter.com/davidburden <http://www.twitter.com/davidburden>
> sl IM: Corro Moseley
>
> Daden specialise in creating immersive learning & visualisation
> systems, and interactive virtual agents.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: Sim size limits

justincc
In reply to this post by James Stallings II
Megaregions [1] provide some of this functionality but as James said, they are some way from perfect.  I suspect there
are a number of bugs and some architectural issues that could be resolved (e.g. issues with terrain and messy
workarounds for oar loading/saving) but ultimately they are limited by having to work with a viewer that is only dimly
aware that regions can be larger than 256m x 256m (e.g. teleporting into a megaregion can involved an automatically
server-side invoked double teleport).

Having said that, some people use megaregions quite happily so it may depend on the use.

The advantage of megaregions is that they should work with all viewers.  To do it 'properly', I believe one has to have
specific viewer support (e.g. as Toni was talking about with the old Naali viewer).  I imagine that multiples of 256m x
256m are easier than completely variable regions.  Some OpenSimulator assumptions/bugs may also need to be resolved
though that might not be too bad since they've already been resolved for megaregions.

Some viewers already support variable regions (for Aurorasim for instance) so it may not be too hard.

In other words, I believe we are likely to see the change in OpenSim but it requires a bit of work/co-ordination so it
probably won't happen tomorrow.

[1] http://opensimulator.org/wiki/Setting_Up_Mega-Regions

On 16/03/12 12:35, James Stallings II wrote:

> Enter Megaregions. Not perfect, but they work. I run one that is 1.25km square on OSgrid (Shambala).
>
> Cheers
> James/Hiro
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 6:36 AM, David Burden <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>
>     At the risk of opening a real can of worms, what is the potential in the future of changing the 256m x 256m limit on
>     sim size, and even moving to a single, near limitless sim.
>
>     It is the one feature of OpenSim that stops us using it/proposing it for some of the really big projects we're
>     involved with, where even modelling just a 2km x 2km area becomes unthinkable in OpenSim (64 sims?), but is trivial
>     in environments like Unity. I know that grids have total sizes well over this, but generally each sim is operating
>     on its own, with few buildings overlapping sim boundaries and people being very conscious of boundary crossings, and
>     trying to automate an object from one sim to another if non-trivial. In terms of our aspirations just getting to
>     1/2/3km sims would make a huge difference, even if we had to stick with existing prim limits.
>
>     I think that RealXTend Tundra has removed the limitation, and Vastpark (which also has some OpenSim heritage) has.
>     Are we ever likely to see a change in OpenSim (and if it's "just" a case of money, then how much effort?)
>
>
>     David
>
>     David Burden
>     Daden Limited
>
>     t: +44 (0)121 250 5677 <tel:%2B44%20%280%29121%20250%205677>
>     m: 07811 266 199
>     e: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     w: www.daden.co.uk <http://www.daden.co.uk>
>     skype: daden5
>     twitter: www.twitter.com/davidburden <http://www.twitter.com/davidburden>
>     sl IM: Corro Moseley
>
>     Daden specialise in creating immersive learning & visualisation systems, and interactive virtual agents.
>
>
>
>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Opensim-users mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
> --
> ===================================
> http://simhost.com
> http://twitter.com/jstallings2
> http://www.linkedin.com/pub/5/770/a49
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: Sim size limits

justincc
In reply to this post by drwhiet@spacefriends.de
Actually, I think opensim-users is the appropriate place for this question.  I would say the dev list is more for active
development topics.

On another note, I'd be incredibly surprised if Vastpark had any OpenSim heritage.  afaik it's a completely
independently developed system.

On 16/03/12 21:27, [hidden email] wrote:

> one could use megaregions ( beware there comes small gremlins with it )
> and the Aurora Distribution has variable sizeable regions ..
> Your question would / could be better answered by using the [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]> list
> as this is a developer question/answer thing..
> And as far as i know it is not about money in opensim development its about contribution
> from people wwho can do magic for us all .. (-> no insult ; mayby the tone just got lost in translation)
> best regards
> Wordfromthe Wise ..
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *Von:* [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] *Im Auftrag von *David Burden
> *Gesendet:* Freitag, 16. März 2012 12:37
> *An:* [hidden email]
> *Betreff:* [Opensim-users] Sim size limits
>
>
> At the risk of opening a real can of worms, what is the potential in the future of changing the 256m x 256m limit on sim
> size, and even moving to a single, near limitless sim.
>
> It is the one feature of OpenSim that stops us using it/proposing it for some of the really big projects we're involved
> with, where even modelling just a 2km x 2km area becomes unthinkable in OpenSim (64 sims?), but is trivial in
> environments like Unity. I know that grids have total sizes well over this, but generally each sim is operating on its
> own, with few buildings overlapping sim boundaries and people being very conscious of boundary crossings, and trying to
> automate an object from one sim to another if non-trivial. In terms of our aspirations just getting to 1/2/3km sims
> would make a huge difference, even if we had to stick with existing prim limits.
>
> I think that RealXTend Tundra has removed the limitation, and Vastpark (which also has some OpenSim heritage) has. Are
> we ever likely to see a change in OpenSim (and if it's "just" a case of money, then how much effort?)
>
>
> David
>
> David Burden
> Daden Limited
>
> t: +44 (0)121 250 5677
> m: 07811 266 199
> e: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> w: www.daden.co.uk <http://www.daden.co.uk>
> skype: daden5
> twitter: www.twitter.com/davidburden <http://www.twitter.com/davidburden>
> sl IM: Corro Moseley
>
> Daden specialise in creating immersive learning & visualisation systems, and interactive virtual agents.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: Sim size limits

Opensimfan
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by drwhiet@spacefriends.de
off-topic:  I tried the latest Aurora-sim as standalone, can't get it to work, keep getting "0.0.0.0" for ip address, not "127.0.0.1"....

thats it..
reply at: Tried Aurora Sim as standalone, no standalone...
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Re: Sim size limits

Sarge Misfit
In reply to this post by justincc
You know, I'd like to see a combination of variable regions AND megaregions. Consider the possibilities of being able to set up land in whatever size a person wants and then being able to "stitch" those regions into a single continent. I could have a 1024x1024 and have neighbours whose land is different sizes, yet be able to travel back and forth without sim boundary bounce. A person could build a 2048 square city center and others could add other areas, from wild out on the edges through rural, suburban, urban in towards the center, yet they would also grow as neighbourhoods due to each smaller section being under the management of a different owner. For those who rent or sell regions, you could set prices by the land size as well as prim allowance, giving you and your customers more flexibility and options

Sarge

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Justin Clark-Casey <[hidden email]> wrote:
Actually, I think opensim-users is the appropriate place for this question.  I would say the dev list is more for active development topics.

On another note, I'd be incredibly surprised if Vastpark had any OpenSim heritage.  afaik it's a completely independently developed system.


On 16/03/12 21:27, [hidden email] wrote:
one could use megaregions ( beware there comes small gremlins with it )
and the Aurora Distribution has variable sizeable regions ..
Your question would / could be better answered by using the [hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]> list

as this is a developer question/answer thing..
And as far as i know it is not about money in opensim development its about contribution
from people wwho can do magic for us all .. (-> no insult ; mayby the tone just got lost in translation)
best regards
Wordfromthe Wise ..

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Von:* [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] *Im Auftrag von *David Burden
*Gesendet:* Freitag, 16. März 2012 12:37
*An:* [hidden email]
*Betreff:* [Opensim-users] Sim size limits



At the risk of opening a real can of worms, what is the potential in the future of changing the 256m x 256m limit on sim
size, and even moving to a single, near limitless sim.

It is the one feature of OpenSim that stops us using it/proposing it for some of the really big projects we're involved
with, where even modelling just a 2km x 2km area becomes unthinkable in OpenSim (64 sims?), but is trivial in
environments like Unity. I know that grids have total sizes well over this, but generally each sim is operating on its
own, with few buildings overlapping sim boundaries and people being very conscious of boundary crossings, and trying to
automate an object from one sim to another if non-trivial. In terms of our aspirations just getting to 1/2/3km sims
would make a huge difference, even if we had to stick with existing prim limits.

I think that RealXTend Tundra has removed the limitation, and Vastpark (which also has some OpenSim heritage) has. Are
we ever likely to see a change in OpenSim (and if it's "just" a case of money, then how much effort?)


David

David Burden
Daden Limited

t: <a href="tel:%2B44%20%280%29121%20250%205677" value="+441212505677" target="_blank">+44 (0)121 250 5677
m: 07811 266 199
e: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
w: www.daden.co.uk <http://www.daden.co.uk>
skype: daden5
twitter: www.twitter.com/davidburden <http://www.twitter.com/davidburden>

sl IM: Corro Moseley

Daden specialise in creating immersive learning & visualisation systems, and interactive virtual agents.






_______________________________________________
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Re: Sim size limits

Michael Emory Cerquoni
This is technically a viewer problem, not a OpenSim problem, though we would need to make some changes in OpenSim to make this work right, mostly its the viewer that is the big limiting factor for this issue.

On Sat, Mar 17, 2012 at 10:46 AM, Sarge Misfit <[hidden email]> wrote:
You know, I'd like to see a combination of variable regions AND megaregions. Consider the possibilities of being able to set up land in whatever size a person wants and then being able to "stitch" those regions into a single continent. I could have a 1024x1024 and have neighbours whose land is different sizes, yet be able to travel back and forth without sim boundary bounce. A person could build a 2048 square city center and others could add other areas, from wild out on the edges through rural, suburban, urban in towards the center, yet they would also grow as neighbourhoods due to each smaller section being under the management of a different owner. For those who rent or sell regions, you could set prices by the land size as well as prim allowance, giving you and your customers more flexibility and options

Sarge

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 8:41 PM, Justin Clark-Casey <[hidden email]> wrote:
Actually, I think opensim-users is the appropriate place for this question.  I would say the dev list is more for active development topics.

On another note, I'd be incredibly surprised if Vastpark had any OpenSim heritage.  afaik it's a completely independently developed system.


On 16/03/12 21:27, [hidden email] wrote:
one could use megaregions ( beware there comes small gremlins with it )
and the Aurora Distribution has variable sizeable regions ..
Your question would / could be better answered by using the [hidden email]
<mailto:[hidden email]> list

as this is a developer question/answer thing..
And as far as i know it is not about money in opensim development its about contribution
from people wwho can do magic for us all .. (-> no insult ; mayby the tone just got lost in translation)
best regards
Wordfromthe Wise ..

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Von:* [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] *Im Auftrag von *David Burden
*Gesendet:* Freitag, 16. März 2012 12:37
*An:* [hidden email]
*Betreff:* [Opensim-users] Sim size limits



At the risk of opening a real can of worms, what is the potential in the future of changing the 256m x 256m limit on sim
size, and even moving to a single, near limitless sim.

It is the one feature of OpenSim that stops us using it/proposing it for some of the really big projects we're involved
with, where even modelling just a 2km x 2km area becomes unthinkable in OpenSim (64 sims?), but is trivial in
environments like Unity. I know that grids have total sizes well over this, but generally each sim is operating on its
own, with few buildings overlapping sim boundaries and people being very conscious of boundary crossings, and trying to
automate an object from one sim to another if non-trivial. In terms of our aspirations just getting to 1/2/3km sims
would make a huge difference, even if we had to stick with existing prim limits.

I think that RealXTend Tundra has removed the limitation, and Vastpark (which also has some OpenSim heritage) has. Are
we ever likely to see a change in OpenSim (and if it's "just" a case of money, then how much effort?)


David

David Burden
Daden Limited

t: <a href="tel:%2B44%20%280%29121%20250%205677" value="+441212505677" target="_blank">+44 (0)121 250 5677
m: 07811 266 199
e: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
w: www.daden.co.uk <http://www.daden.co.uk>
skype: daden5
twitter: www.twitter.com/davidburden <http://www.twitter.com/davidburden>

sl IM: Corro Moseley

Daden specialise in creating immersive learning & visualisation systems, and interactive virtual agents.






_______________________________________________
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Re: Sim size limits

David Burden
In reply to this post by David Burden
Thanks for all the feedback. 

Sarge - Looked at Aurora ages ago, might be time for another look (if I can get it to work).

James/Justin- got the impression from this list that Megaregions were still very flaky, and also a bit of kludge rather than true large regions

Toni - I'll have a play with region size. Using Mesh terrain might be fine. And we've done the @scale piece before, worked really well when we put an Apache HUD on and started flying over it like a flightsim (http://www.daden.co.uk/blog/2012/03/opensim-as-apache-flightsim.html), but these use cases needs real avatars.

Diva - is yours just a Vanilla opensim build with 64+ sims? Any problems with building across the boundaries - is it urban or rural? Any special tools to generate/manage it? 64 OAR files?

It's interesting how much of this depends on the viewer, which tends to echo some of the other discussion about the need for an "opensim" viewer.

Only reason for mentioning money was that the stock (commercial) developer response is that of course it's possible, it just depends about how much money you've got, so just wanted to get passed that. And I'm with InuYasha about spending my lottery win (along with buying the GDW Traveller licence).

 


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Re: Sim size limits

Diva Canto
On 3/19/2012 2:54 AM, David Burden wrote:
> Diva - is yours just a Vanilla opensim build with 64+ sims? Any
> problems with building across the boundaries - is it urban or rural?
> Any special tools to generate/manage it? 64 OAR files?

Vanilla OpenSim and I'm not using megaregions, they're regular regions.
It's an urban environment.
It's 8 sims, 72 regions.
I have some internally-developed tools both for GIS and for managing
grids like this, and I'm using a combination of fixed servers and AWS.
Sims are only up when we need them.

I have considered many times switching to Unity3d for this project
because of its availability in the Web Browser, and its compatibility
with mainstream modeling tools. But Unity3d is not a collaborative
modeling environment. For my use case, collaboration during builds is
pretty important, because we have people all over the world, so I'm
sticking with OpenSim. If collaboration wasn't a requirement, the case
for OpenSim would be weaker.

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Re: Sim size limits

Diva Canto
In reply to this post by David Burden
On 3/19/2012 12:09 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> May I ask please:  Is the "vanilla sim" you just described to David and to the rest of us built from OpenSim web site downloaded source or from your own highly modified code?

Web site, 0.7.3, with zero modifications.
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Re: Sim size limits

justincc
In reply to this post by David Burden
I think I'm mistakenly giving the impression that they're much more flaky than they actually are (which might not be
particularly flaky, more requiring some workarounds).  I do suggest trying them out.

It certainly is possible to improve things in this area, it's just difficult to estimate since it requires
adaptation/improvements on both client and server side.  If I was to hazard a guess I would say a solid month on the
server side and the same on the viewer side.

On 19/03/12 09:54, David Burden wrote:

>     Thanks for all the feedback.
>
>     Sarge - Looked at Aurora ages ago, might be time for another look (if I can get it to work).
>
>     James/Justin- got the impression from this list that Megaregions were still very flaky, and also a bit of kludge
>     rather than true large regions
>
>     Toni - I'll have a play with region size. Using Mesh terrain might be fine. And we've done the @scale piece before,
>     worked really well when we put an Apache HUD on and started flying over it like a flightsim
>     (http://www.daden.co.uk/blog/2012/03/opensim-as-apache-flightsim.html), but these use cases needs real avatars.
>
>     Diva - is yours just a Vanilla opensim build with 64+ sims? Any problems with building across the boundaries - is it
>     urban or rural? Any special tools to generate/manage it? 64 OAR files?
>
>     It's interesting how much of this depends on the viewer, which tends to echo some of the other discussion about the
>     need for an "opensim" viewer.
>
>     Only reason for mentioning money was that the stock (commercial) developer response is that of course it's possible,
>     it just depends about how much money you've got, so just wanted to get passed that. And I'm with InuYasha about
>     spending my lottery win (along with buying the GDW Traveller licence).
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Sim size limits

Ovi Chris Rouly
Hi Justin,

I finally got my Sa-Hg 0.7.3 "serverless grid" to work based on OS website
source download and compile.  However, there were numerous undocumented
changes that I had to guess at, reason-out based on the error logs and from
comparisons between the OS downloads and the Diva Distro, and many others I
had to just "pull out of the air."

For example, the login calls to the MySQL dBase no longer "tolerated" a
literal "10.0.0.10" address in their "DataSource" field.  (It seems like
only the "localhost" now suffices?)  Deletion of the "null.dll" lines in
"almost" every case relative to their MySQL counterpart insertions wasn't so
shocking but I found it was necessary in almost every case.  (I'm thinking
that was new to 0.7.3?)  A substitution of more than a half-dozen HG-centric
lines taken from the Diva Distro configs and copied into the Hypergrid.ini
config was not listed in the OpenSim website downloads. And what can only be
described as an "innovative omission" of how to handle the PresenceService
null.dll line in the Hypergrid.ini file.  That little bugger had to be
deleted outright.

My test was a simple: a 4 Sim X 16 region/Sim demo with meter-scale L3DT
prepared USGS DEMS on a 32-bit XP SP3 machine.  This demo (kernel) can now
be expanded to my main 64-bit platform with port-mapping for 256 regions.  I
am truly appreciative for all the development teams hard work.  The region
crossings are better, the physics is impressive, and much much more.  Unity
still can't lay a finger on this technology.

Respectfully yours,

Chris


----- Original Message -----
From: "Justin Clark-Casey" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 8:38 PM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Sim size limits


> I think I'm mistakenly giving the impression that they're much more flaky
than they actually are (which might not be
> particularly flaky, more requiring some workarounds).  I do suggest trying
them out.
>
> It certainly is possible to improve things in this area, it's just
difficult to estimate since it requires
> adaptation/improvements on both client and server side.  If I was to
hazard a guess I would say a solid month on the
> server side and the same on the viewer side.
>
> On 19/03/12 09:54, David Burden wrote:
> >     Thanks for all the feedback.
> >
> >     Sarge - Looked at Aurora ages ago, might be time for another look
(if I can get it to work).
> >
> >     James/Justin- got the impression from this list that Megaregions
were still very flaky, and also a bit of kludge
> >     rather than true large regions
> >
> >     Toni - I'll have a play with region size. Using Mesh terrain might
be fine. And we've done the @scale piece before,
> >     worked really well when we put an Apache HUD on and started flying
over it like a flightsim
> >
(http://www.daden.co.uk/blog/2012/03/opensim-as-apache-flightsim.html), but
these use cases needs real avatars.
> >
> >     Diva - is yours just a Vanilla opensim build with 64+ sims? Any
problems with building across the boundaries - is it
> >     urban or rural? Any special tools to generate/manage it? 64 OAR
files?
> >
> >     It's interesting how much of this depends on the viewer, which tends
to echo some of the other discussion about the
> >     need for an "opensim" viewer.
> >
> >     Only reason for mentioning money was that the stock (commercial)
developer response is that of course it's possible,
> >     it just depends about how much money you've got, so just wanted to
get passed that. And I'm with InuYasha about
> >     spending my lottery win (along with buying the GDW Traveller
licence).

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
> --
> Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
> http://justincc.org/blog
> http://twitter.com/justincc
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>


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Re: Sim size limits

James Stallings II
In reply to this post by justincc
This actually turned out to be a much more interesting thread than I had initially thought it would be, so I feel compelled to add a bit of detail, as I'm a long-time user and booster of mega-regions; in fact, if I'm not THE person Teravus made mega-regions for, I'm certainly ONE of them ;) I was the first user to test them, afaik.

Mega-regions did start out as a nasty hack or kludge, and in the sense that they are something of an awkward extension of existing capabilities, they probably always will be, at least architecturally.

That said, opensim devs have more or less infinite control over architecture on the server side, and most viewer limitations at the extremes can be obviated with simple tweaks to the viewer, i.e., shortening draw distance.

I think that Justin is right, 'flaky' is a bit extreme at this point in describing problems with mega-regions. Where they are troublesome (more on that in a minute), they are at least very consistent in how they are troublesome. In the final analysis, I think it all comes down to use-case, as it generally does with the appropriateness of a given configuration profile, and whether you can work alongside of ongoing development efforts or even wait on them.

I've identified a couple of solid use-cases for mega-regions, as follows:

- you're a 'resident' or full-time virtual worker who needs a lot of elbow room
- you want to work with simulated transportation
- you are replicating a significantly large real-world geographic feature

Of course, these are simplified examples but that's deliberate to admit of similar  possibilities.

Where mega-regions can be said to be deficient is in certain places where either the viewer, the script engine, or the physics frame have been hard-coded to 256m limits; for instance most (all?) of llMoveToTarget,llTarget and osNpcMoveToTarget do not function in X/Y>256; nor does llGround. This necessarily limits some functionality with NPCs, certain AOs, etc. Parceling, and all things dependent on parceling are also no-go, except in the 'root' or southwest-most region.

Interestingly, physical vehicles do not seem to be troubled in that fashion.

In short, I think if I were to answer whether mega-regions are useful, I'd have to give it a hearty and enthusiastic if somewhat qualified 'Yes!' :)


While I'm on the topic, I'd like to thank Teravus for making mega-regions, and JustinCC for his work on them since, and the other devs who have patiently listened as I explained why they shouldn't be backed out of the code base.

Thanks! :D

Cheers
James/Hiro



On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 8:38 PM, Justin Clark-Casey <[hidden email]> wrote:
I think I'm mistakenly giving the impression that they're much more flaky than they actually are (which might not be particularly flaky, more requiring some workarounds).  I do suggest trying them out.

It certainly is possible to improve things in this area, it's just difficult to estimate since it requires adaptation/improvements on both client and server side.  If I was to hazard a guess I would say a solid month on the server side and the same on the viewer side.


On 19/03/12 09:54, David Burden wrote:
   Thanks for all the feedback.

   Sarge - Looked at Aurora ages ago, might be time for another look (if I can get it to work).

   James/Justin- got the impression from this list that Megaregions were still very flaky, and also a bit of kludge
   rather than true large regions

   Toni - I'll have a play with region size. Using Mesh terrain might be fine. And we've done the @scale piece before,
   worked really well when we put an Apache HUD on and started flying over it like a flightsim
   (http://www.daden.co.uk/blog/2012/03/opensim-as-apache-flightsim.html), but these use cases needs real avatars.

   Diva - is yours just a Vanilla opensim build with 64+ sims? Any problems with building across the boundaries - is it
   urban or rural? Any special tools to generate/manage it? 64 OAR files?

   It's interesting how much of this depends on the viewer, which tends to echo some of the other discussion about the
   need for an "opensim" viewer.

   Only reason for mentioning money was that the stock (commercial) developer response is that of course it's possible,
   it just depends about how much money you've got, so just wanted to get passed that. And I'm with InuYasha about
   spending my lottery win (along with buying the GDW Traveller licence).





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Re: Sim size limits

Mic Bowman
In reply to this post by Diva Canto
If you don't have memory issues... we run the Yellowstone regions in scisim with 64 regions per sim and 16 sims (total of 1024 regions). We set the view distance up so you can see a 10x10 area. That causes problems with the current method of connecting the viewer to each of the regions (cant seem to get connections to 100 different regions before the circuit times out). We run the sims largely without prims, just GIS-derived terrain. It takes 2 8-core servers with 16G of memory in each. Stock opensim.

--mic


On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Diva Canto <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 3/19/2012 2:54 AM, David Burden wrote:
Diva - is yours just a Vanilla opensim build with 64+ sims? Any problems with building across the boundaries - is it urban or rural? Any special tools to generate/manage it? 64 OAR files?

Vanilla OpenSim and I'm not using megaregions, they're regular regions.
It's an urban environment.
It's 8 sims, 72 regions.
I have some internally-developed tools both for GIS and for managing grids like this, and I'm using a combination of fixed servers and AWS. Sims are only up when we need them.

I have considered many times switching to Unity3d for this project because of its availability in the Web Browser, and its compatibility with mainstream modeling tools. But Unity3d is not a collaborative modeling environment. For my use case, collaboration during builds is pretty important, because we have people all over the world, so I'm sticking with OpenSim. If collaboration wasn't a requirement, the case for OpenSim would be weaker.

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Re: Sim size limits

justincc
In reply to this post by Ovi Chris Rouly
Chris, this is why we recommend that one does not re-use configurations between OpenSim installations, particularly with
non-mainstream architectures such as serverless grid.

I haven't heard of any such major problems with the out-of-the-box configs in 0.7.3 (or 0.7.2).

On 21/03/12 04:15, Ovi Chris Rouly wrote:

> Hi Justin,
>
> I finally got my Sa-Hg 0.7.3 "serverless grid" to work based on OS website
> source download and compile.  However, there were numerous undocumented
> changes that I had to guess at, reason-out based on the error logs and from
> comparisons between the OS downloads and the Diva Distro, and many others I
> had to just "pull out of the air."
>
> For example, the login calls to the MySQL dBase no longer "tolerated" a
> literal "10.0.0.10" address in their "DataSource" field.  (It seems like
> only the "localhost" now suffices?)  Deletion of the "null.dll" lines in
> "almost" every case relative to their MySQL counterpart insertions wasn't so
> shocking but I found it was necessary in almost every case.  (I'm thinking
> that was new to 0.7.3?)  A substitution of more than a half-dozen HG-centric
> lines taken from the Diva Distro configs and copied into the Hypergrid.ini
> config was not listed in the OpenSim website downloads. And what can only be
> described as an "innovative omission" of how to handle the PresenceService
> null.dll line in the Hypergrid.ini file.  That little bugger had to be
> deleted outright.
>
> My test was a simple: a 4 Sim X 16 region/Sim demo with meter-scale L3DT
> prepared USGS DEMS on a 32-bit XP SP3 machine.  This demo (kernel) can now
> be expanded to my main 64-bit platform with port-mapping for 256 regions.  I
> am truly appreciative for all the development teams hard work.  The region
> crossings are better, the physics is impressive, and much much more.  Unity
> still can't lay a finger on this technology.
>
> Respectfully yours,
>
> Chris
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Justin Clark-Casey"<[hidden email]>
> To:<[hidden email]>
> Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 8:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Sim size limits
>
>
>> I think I'm mistakenly giving the impression that they're much more flaky
> than they actually are (which might not be
>> particularly flaky, more requiring some workarounds).  I do suggest trying
> them out.
>>
>> It certainly is possible to improve things in this area, it's just
> difficult to estimate since it requires
>> adaptation/improvements on both client and server side.  If I was to
> hazard a guess I would say a solid month on the
>> server side and the same on the viewer side.
>>
>> On 19/03/12 09:54, David Burden wrote:
>>>      Thanks for all the feedback.
>>>
>>>      Sarge - Looked at Aurora ages ago, might be time for another look
> (if I can get it to work).
>>>
>>>      James/Justin- got the impression from this list that Megaregions
> were still very flaky, and also a bit of kludge
>>>      rather than true large regions
>>>
>>>      Toni - I'll have a play with region size. Using Mesh terrain might
> be fine. And we've done the @scale piece before,
>>>      worked really well when we put an Apache HUD on and started flying
> over it like a flightsim
>>>
> (http://www.daden.co.uk/blog/2012/03/opensim-as-apache-flightsim.html), but
> these use cases needs real avatars.
>>>
>>>      Diva - is yours just a Vanilla opensim build with 64+ sims? Any
> problems with building across the boundaries - is it
>>>      urban or rural? Any special tools to generate/manage it? 64 OAR
> files?
>>>
>>>      It's interesting how much of this depends on the viewer, which tends
> to echo some of the other discussion about the
>>>      need for an "opensim" viewer.
>>>
>>>      Only reason for mentioning money was that the stock (commercial)
> developer response is that of course it's possible,
>>>      it just depends about how much money you've got, so just wanted to
> get passed that. And I'm with InuYasha about
>>>      spending my lottery win (along with buying the GDW Traveller
> licence).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>
>>
>> --
>> Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
>> http://justincc.org/blog
>> http://twitter.com/justincc
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> .
>


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Re: Sim size limits

Cosmo
This post was updated on .
In reply to this post by James Stallings II
Greetings, this indeed is a very interesting thread, an eye-opener to my newb (in the ways & works of opensim) eyes.

Besides my personal fascination with Opensim, being a senior tutor in a small art & design college I can't help but to see the endless possibilities for educational & presentational purposes. So I've set forth to propose a plan for our designers community launch into the metaverse!

Step one is to get key people familiarized (and hooked) with the environment & possibilities, and thanks to the hassle-free portability of sim-on-a-stick (and thx to Diva) this is going well.

This is where Mega-regions come into play, since is the way sim-on-a-stick is preconfigured for it's hussle-free initial setup. I started building and experimenting under the assumption that "megas" work the same way (build-wise) as normal regions. But especially when I came to NPC experimentation & the all important, in my case, parcel media implementations I run into what James Stallings so adequately describes.

Some points/questions for verification/clarification or advice that would be hugely appreciated:

James Stallings II wrote
llMoveToTarget,llTarget and osNpcMoveToTarget do not function in X/Y>256; nor does llGround. This necessarily limits some functionality with NPCs, certain AOs, etc.
Does this mean restriction of above functions within the SW region or within the 256x256 region the npc was created on?

James Stallings II wrote
Parceling, and all things dependent on parceling are also no-go, except in the 'root' or southwest-most region.
Since subdivision of land into parcels seems to be the way for multiple streaming media, should subdividing a mega-region for multi parcel media usage been thought of any differently than regular region subdivision?

Should one go ahead and create parcels on a mega-region or move to a 4 region config. before starting "parceling"? (and I ask this in regard to the aptly noted "working alongside of ongoing development efforts or even waiting on them" since megas are still marked experimental on OS feature matrix)

How about OAR support for megaregions, is it still partial?
I have been switching to each region in our mega via console (as I was advised) to save each regions oar, is this enough for restoring if/when necessary? or am I in for some future grief?

Also I have heard of Teleportation Issues (?) - but these could be on teleporting between megas & normal regions - I haven't experienced any such problems within a mega myself.

All in all, seems quite important to me to be able to pick a way move at this point (mega or separate regions) depending on your comments or directions for further investigation on the above.

Thanks

Cosmo T.
“If you focus your mind on the freedom and community that you can build by staying firm, you will find the strength to do it.”
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Sim size limits

Ovi Chris Rouly
In reply to this post by Mic Bowman
Mic,
 
"Stock opensim."  Do you mean SQLite is (are) your dBase(s)?
 
Chris
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, March 21, 2012 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Sim size limits

If you don't have memory issues... we run the Yellowstone regions in scisim with 64 regions per sim and 16 sims (total of 1024 regions). We set the view distance up so you can see a 10x10 area. That causes problems with the current method of connecting the viewer to each of the regions (cant seem to get connections to 100 different regions before the circuit times out). We run the sims largely without prims, just GIS-derived terrain. It takes 2 8-core servers with 16G of memory in each. Stock opensim.

--mic


On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 9:31 AM, Diva Canto <[hidden email]> wrote:
On 3/19/2012 2:54 AM, David Burden wrote:
Diva - is yours just a Vanilla opensim build with 64+ sims? Any problems with building across the boundaries - is it urban or rural? Any special tools to generate/manage it? 64 OAR files?

Vanilla OpenSim and I'm not using megaregions, they're regular regions.
It's an urban environment.
It's 8 sims, 72 regions.
I have some internally-developed tools both for GIS and for managing grids like this, and I'm using a combination of fixed servers and AWS. Sims are only up when we need them.

I have considered many times switching to Unity3d for this project because of its availability in the Web Browser, and its compatibility with mainstream modeling tools. But Unity3d is not a collaborative modeling environment. For my use case, collaboration during builds is pretty important, because we have people all over the world, so I'm sticking with OpenSim. If collaboration wasn't a requirement, the case for OpenSim would be weaker.

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