Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

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Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Len W. Brown
I created an account on OSGrid back in November of 2007.

     These days I spend an enormous amount of time there with some of my publicly accessible regions.

     Yesterday I relocated one of my homestead regions and where I put it was next to about 5 "pirate/island" themed sims/regions.

     Being nosy, I flew around my neighboring regions.  And lo and behold I found and extraordinary collection of palm trees swaying in the breeze and luxurious tropical plants as far as my eyes could see.  And yet, this entire world seemed a bit more than faintly familiar...

     Upon closer inspection, every single palm tree, bush, shrub, grass, tree, and water lily bore a certain extreme recognizability...

     I wonder if Lilith Heart, who has made her fortune selling an endless variety of absolutely beautiful plants in Second Life knows that her years of devoted and hard work have been cleanly ripped and presented all over OSGrid?  And in what probably amounted to a couple hours of image ripping and XML exporting...

     Sadly, there's not a single thing she can do.  Which is why, though I happily imported my entire furniture and building collection into OpenSim, not a single piece of it is (yet) available to the general public on OSGrid.  I eventually plan to make it all available, but the simple fact is, when I do, it will immediately be ripped to shreds and will be found spread out all over the grid.  Not such a bad thing to one degree since the furniture is all very highly detailed, but it will surely put a very resoundingly obvious period at the end of my virtual business endeavors.  In other words, I don't see a penny from it.

--
- Len W. Brown
  [hidden email]

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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Karen_Palen
There have been several public domain versions of plants available for a long time now.

OpenSim even has a "tree" module which will create a virtual forest with included trees (one of which is a palm tree).

Most of the ones I recognise as being derived from various 3d libraries including Renderosity free stuff.

Do you actually have some evidence that these trees are copied from Lilith Heart or is this just that "they look very similar".

Lets not go down the same path as Second Life with this mindless hysteria without at least some evidence of actual wrongdoing.

Over the years I have built quite a lot of content which I am willing to donate to OpenSim users, but I am not willing to risk being labled a crook as a result!

Karen

--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Len Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Len Brown <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Opensim-users] Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 3:09 PM
> I created an account on OSGrid back in
> November of 2007.
>
>      These days I spend an enormous amount of time
> there with some of my publicly accessible regions.
>
>      Yesterday I relocated one of my homestead regions
> and where I put it was next to about 5
> "pirate/island" themed sims/regions.
>
>
>      Being nosy, I flew around my neighboring
> regions.  And lo and behold I found and extraordinary
> collection of palm trees swaying in the breeze and luxurious
> tropical plants as far as my eyes could see.  And yet, this
> entire world seemed a bit more than faintly familiar...
>
>
>      Upon closer inspection, every single palm tree,
> bush, shrub, grass, tree, and water lily bore a certain
> extreme recognizability...
>
>      I wonder if Lilith Heart, who has made her fortune
> selling an endless variety of absolutely beautiful plants in
> Second Life knows that her years of devoted and hard work
> have been cleanly ripped and presented all over OSGrid? 
> And in what probably amounted to a couple hours of image
> ripping and XML exporting...
>
>
>      Sadly, there's not a single thing she can
> do.  Which is why, though I happily imported my entire
> furniture and building collection into OpenSim, not a single
> piece of it is (yet) available to the general public on
> OSGrid.  I eventually plan to make it all available, but
> the simple fact is, when I do, it will immediately be ripped
> to shreds and will be found spread out all over the grid. 
> Not such a bad thing to one degree since the furniture is
> all very highly detailed, but it will surely put a very
> resoundingly obvious period at the end of my virtual
> business endeavors.  In other words, I don't see a
> penny from it.
>
>
> --
> - Len W. Brown
>    [hidden email]
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>


     
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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

justincc
In reply to this post by Len W. Brown
Len Brown wrote:
>
>      I wonder if Lilith Heart, who has made her fortune selling an
> endless variety of absolutely beautiful plants in Second Life knows that
> her years of devoted and hard work have been cleanly ripped and
> presented all over OSGrid?  And in what probably amounted to a couple
> hours of image ripping and XML exporting...

In this case, it appears that Lilith imported the content herself.  See the first comment at

http://secondthoughts.typepad.com/second_thoughts/2010/01/why-i-never-go-over-to-opensim.html

>
>      Sadly, there's not a single thing she can do.  Which is why, though
> I happily imported my entire furniture and building collection into
> OpenSim, not a single piece of it is (yet) available to the general
> public on OSGrid.  I eventually plan to make it all available, but the
> simple fact is, when I do, it will immediately be ripped to shreds and
> will be found spread out all over the grid.  Not such a bad thing to one
> degree since the furniture is all very highly detailed, but it will
> surely put a very resoundingly obvious period at the end of my virtual
> business endeavors.  In other words, I don't see a penny from it.
>
> --
> - Len W. Brown
>   [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
http://justincc.org
http://twitter.com/justincc
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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Len W. Brown
In reply to this post by Karen_Palen
Believe me Karen, I would recognize them anywhere.  I personally paid Lilith over $500 US$ for hundreds of these plants for use around my Second Life businesses.  Many, if not all, are hand drawn by Lilith and her partner.  I use her tropical plants all the time in Second Life and these OSGrid replicants are down to the prim identical replications of the groups and clusters of plants Lilith sells in Second Life.  Especially when you have five and six different rare tropical plants arranged together and linked, and side by side login comparisons leave zero doubt.

- Len

On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 4:48 PM, Karen Palen <[hidden email]> wrote:
There have been several public domain versions of plants available for a long time now.

OpenSim even has a "tree" module which will create a virtual forest with included trees (one of which is a palm tree).

Most of the ones I recognise as being derived from various 3d libraries including Renderosity free stuff.

Do you actually have some evidence that these trees are copied from Lilith Heart or is this just that "they look very similar".

Lets not go down the same path as Second Life with this mindless hysteria without at least some evidence of actual wrongdoing.

Over the years I have built quite a lot of content which I am willing to donate to OpenSim users, but I am not willing to risk being labled a crook as a result!

Karen

--- On Tue, 2/23/10, Len Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Len Brown <[hidden email]>
> Subject: [Opensim-users] Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Tuesday, February 23, 2010, 3:09 PM
> I created an account on OSGrid back in
> November of 2007.
>
>      These days I spend an enormous amount of time
> there with some of my publicly accessible regions.
>
>      Yesterday I relocated one of my homestead regions
> and where I put it was next to about 5
> "pirate/island" themed sims/regions.
>
>
>      Being nosy, I flew around my neighboring
> regions.  And lo and behold I found and extraordinary
> collection of palm trees swaying in the breeze and luxurious
> tropical plants as far as my eyes could see.  And yet, this
> entire world seemed a bit more than faintly familiar...
>
>
>      Upon closer inspection, every single palm tree,
> bush, shrub, grass, tree, and water lily bore a certain
> extreme recognizability...
>
>      I wonder if Lilith Heart, who has made her fortune
> selling an endless variety of absolutely beautiful plants in
> Second Life knows that her years of devoted and hard work
> have been cleanly ripped and presented all over OSGrid? 
> And in what probably amounted to a couple hours of image
> ripping and XML exporting...
>
>
>      Sadly, there's not a single thing she can
> do.  Which is why, though I happily imported my entire
> furniture and building collection into OpenSim, not a single
> piece of it is (yet) available to the general public on
> OSGrid.  I eventually plan to make it all available, but
> the simple fact is, when I do, it will immediately be ripped
> to shreds and will be found spread out all over the grid. 
> Not such a bad thing to one degree since the furniture is
> all very highly detailed, but it will surely put a very
> resoundingly obvious period at the end of my virtual
> business endeavors.  In other words, I don't see a
> penny from it.
>
>
> --
> - Len W. Brown
>    [hidden email]
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>



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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Michael Cortez-3
In reply to this post by Len W. Brown
On Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Len Brown <[hidden email]> wrote:
>      Sadly, there's not a single thing she can do.
>

Actually, technically there is.  Every writer or photographer since
copyright laws went into affect can file a lawsuit against anyone who
plagiarizes their content and since the introduction of the DMCA they
have a certain level of recourse in compelling the service providers
that host infringing material to reveal what identify information they
have on file for someone illegitimately using their copy-written
material.

It's probably not worth the cost of the time and effort needed for it
to come to fruition, and it would likely only result in the offenders
removing her copy-written material with no way of getting monetary
damages or recouping legal fees.


on Tue, Feb 23, 2010 at 5:57 PM John Mieske <[hidden email]> wrote:
> three years ago, I started to just give stuff away. I realized there is no way to secure
> your items you try to sell in SL or in anything online social network now days. Not
> enough money in it and pirateers will always.. and I do mean ALWAYS find a way if
> they want it bad enough. The way I personally look at it, if you don't mind your stuff
> getting stolen then put it out there, otherwise your just wasting time trying to secure
> it.

For some reason I have never really been able to agree with this
particular point of view.

Photographers, writers, music, radio, television and movie producers
have all been subject to people copying their content, using it in
ways they never intended, giving free copies away, selling duplicates,
or even plagiarizing, often without the original creator getting
credit.

Yet for some reason when someone fails at any of the businesses
associated with these types of products, the fact that their
intellectual property can (and will be) illegally copied, is rarely
cited as the primary reason for failure to be profitable, become well
known, or help out your fellow man (depending on your original goals.)

With proper marketing making it easy for people to find you, with good
pricing so that your competitive, with support that makes it clear
it's better to use your direct products rather than knock offs or
copies, with continued innovation of new products and services it is
possible to not only make a profit, but to make a living producing
material than can (and will be) stolen.

Yes, I'll admit there are many out there that wish they could
create/invent a handful of items and through the patent, copyright, or
trademark laws be able to sell their creation without the associated
business costs of dealing with copy cats and thieves, so that they can
make profit from their intellectual property in perpetuity.  But the
simple fact of the matter is, that type of business climate started
slipping away in the 40's and is increasingly difficult to achieve.
Especially in a digital market place, where it is relatively easy for
your IP to be stolen.

For me it's not really so much "if you don't mind your stuff getting
stolen" -- I don't really think anyone likes to have their stuff
stolen.  For me it's more about recognizing the market place, and the
requirements and repercussions of doing business in that market, and
making an informed decision to compete or not.

On a personal note, I think a lot of the artists could make quite a
bit of additional profit bylicensing their textures and creations via
a normal web site, using paypal, that does not directly target SL or
any particular Grid.  I have for example, tracked down an artist that
sells textures via TRU (who has a strict no non-SL policy), and found
that the artist licensing their own textures via the web for use
*anywhere* and doesn't even mention SL on their website.  The web site
happens to directly mention Poser/Daz3D, game and 3D content
developers.  I was more than willing to pay $30/USD to buy their
texture pack outside SL, and as per the terms of the license I can use
those anywhere (including in SL or OSGrid) as long as I don't
redistribute them as a texture pack -- I'm free to use them on my own
creations, even if I'm selling them.

Cheers,
--
Michael
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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Lilith Heart
This post has NOT been accepted by the mailing list yet.
In reply to this post by Len W. Brown
I would like to inform everyone using OS Grid that I have NOT authorised the use of mine and Dolly content - plants, flowers, trees, landscaping products etc - for use in OS gird or any other alternative grid based on the Secondlife platform.

So ANY of mine and Dolly's plants flowers trees etc that you may see in OS grid or any other grid - PLEASE NOTE that ALL OF THESE PLANTS FLOWERS AND TREES ARE STOLEN< COPYBOT VERSIONS and breach our copyright as all our work is original artwork.

Also NOTE ... I have not licensed or authorised any third party or individual to export our content from Secondlife for use in OS grid or any other Grid.

It hardly seems likely that content creators will be attracted to the OS Grid and bring their content in under these circumstances, where stolen versions of recognised creators work is already present in overwhelming amounts.


Regards,
Lilith Heart
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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by Len W. Brown
we cooked this good and jonh saved itm heres what the thread was. http://opensim-techie-issues.416311.n3.nabble.com/Use-of-water-marking-content-td415879.html#a415879

this is still somethig we work on but no matter what way its sliced we end back where we started
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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by Lilith Heart
well the link will take yah on aloop of what could be done but the rl truth is there is no way to realy do it. I shure dont want ppls hard work stolen, no one does but there is no way to make it work realy. another point is that just because someone has something dosent mean thay stole it. some one may have given it to another that has no idea of that. Who do we as grid op's punish ?
anyway were trying but its allways ending the same loop. its worth a read at least. If you got a way that makes your request work, im on that bandwaggon :)

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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by Lilith Heart
heres a bit of vew from a full gird op. We have 66 users with 25 gigs of assest data, my job is to run a grid. theres is no way for me to search and know anything about this. I can say to the users not to use it but thats about it. I cant know that what you say has happened or not. In the end grid ops cant do anything about it. who do we spank and how do we know that?

tnx
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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by Lilith Heart
why yah read the catch22 of it, theres a more gand thought. Lets say your work is art. you maynot get payed for it but its that good that ppl copy it. Thay do that because your art is the best and thay cant do it them selps. It is more about fame in that case. No one can do better than you and OS has locks now that keep the orgial maker knowen. I make alot of stuff and in my weird way, of its stole or other wise just kicks ass because in ppls eyes its that good!
I make alot and in away that ppl love. Mabey ppl take stuff because your work is that good. Thay prob will call yah you up and want yah todo more then you get payed. (thay do for me anyway).
I guess is a matter of who you serve. As long as my name is on what i make im fine :)
If what i make is that good ppl need to steal it well it lives passed me in a grander theam of thought.
id rather see ppl happy and know its used and wanted. a few $ is allways nice too :)

tnx
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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by Lilith Heart
i did a search of our grids assests , it took 3 hrs for one pass. and no match was found. Im not shure what im looking for but nothing w. your name or discp shows up. i cant keep the grid offlline longer but i did look just the same. if any of our users have it, i cant find it.

tnx
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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Lilith Heart
Thank you for you time and effort Master Mirage. But searching for my name is wasted effort as all the stolen content will now have the copybotters/theives names as creator.

Please take a look at these screenshots from your own OSGrid Gallery. They should help you identify the stolen Heart content and give you an idea of how widespread the problem is.

http://dollyandlilithheart.blogspot.com/

Virtual worlds need a process to recognise creators. The DMCA process is anitquated and not fit for purpose. The idea that I need to keep filing DMCA reports against the same content over and over again is absurd.

What grid owners need to do , SL included, is to recognise content creators and support them. We need to move forward in these new worlds together. RECOGNISING creators is the first 'human' step that needs to be taken

Thank you Master Mirage for taking the time to respond and look in to this issue
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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Master_Mirage
I took this a bit futher and made shure your exaples are know should thay see it. We made replacemnts and wount argue how it thay got it, there just as good. I made it really clear on our grid that if your work is seen , to offer a rplacemnt and not to go in to how thay got it.
As a grid we cant know whos right or wrong, I know you from way back in sl and i know your who yah say.

So in this case we replace any of that with our own rather than go down a road we cant do.

What helps is like you did though, say what it is and respncble grid ops are aware.

If i dident know you from way back lil, this wount work.

We have verry good ppl to and can make our own but where something comes from theres no way to say.

Anyway as far as i know your works are now purged and the rare few we replaced.

i think more creators should let OS grid ops know if thay feel its not right.

tnx
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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Master_Mirage
A bit more
Opensim has no way to contoll what content sl leaks. Its not fair to just point out OSG or any opensim op.
If you really want to make a case then ask the lab how it got out to start with!
Its not fair to poke fingers at Opensimulator for somone elses oops!

You works leaked out i guess. but were not the ones to get mad at!

Thay got all the bucks, were just after them ..
Anyway i feel for yah but really your barking in the wrong place.
No one i know took anything that wasent there own. some others may have, who knows?
How ever it happened the lab was 1st and if your stuff got out then why todo?
If the lab way back handent allowed then this is not a problem now to os.

I just dont think it fair to blame OSG , the blame isant with them our our grid.

tnx
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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Master_Mirage
We will dliver repcaments to lil's hard work. takes a bit of time. our atr ppl just want there name on them is all, nothing more to it.
Ops run a grid not sell pants or plants..

we just keep the light on

Anyway ill bring a box of the good stuff and end this part.

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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Bill-15
In reply to this post by Master_Mirage
Is there a message missing from the list? Seems to start in the middle.
*************************************************
Master_Mirage wrote:

> I took this a bit futher and made shure your exaples are know should thay see
> it. We made replacemnts and wount argue how it thay got it, there just as
> good. I made it really clear on our grid that if your work is seen , to
> offer a rplacemnt and not to go in to how thay got it.
> As a grid we cant know whos right or wrong, I know you from way back in sl
> and i know your who yah say.
>
> So in this case we replace any of that with our own rather than go down a
> road we cant do.
>
> What helps is like you did though, say what it is and respncble grid ops are
> aware.
>
> If i dident know you from way back lil, this wount work.
>
> We have verry good ppl to and can make our own but where something comes
> from theres no way to say.
>
> Anyway as far as i know your works are now purged and the rare few we
> replaced.
>
> i think more creators should let OS grid ops know if thay feel its not
> right.
>
> tnx
>
> -----
> Our New Web Page
> Http://www.TritonGrid.com
>    

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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Master_Mirage
hi bill, its a long thread is all. to most it will not matter.. smile
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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by Bill-15
Im gonna add a bit to this and hats off to OS devs. i made ref to them locking the creator of an item down so when you get something it floes in away. Im really happy to see this lock on who made what!
.69 doent qute have it but damm there good :)
Nice to know we wernt talkn in catch 22 after all :)
Have a look and thats just as good ad yah get!



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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Master_Mirage
in testing with all my powers short hacking a db , the makers name is there!
thats huge evan for the labs ... you go devs !!!
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Re: Speaking of Content Theft, How About Our Own Backyard?

Master_Mirage
also in .7.8 is way better tools in the way of dealing with things like this. like who and what and when someone brought in something. The big redo has lot to keep/let a grid op know where a grid got a thing and from who. Man this helps alot ! tnx
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