Theoretical limit on maximum number of NPCs on a region

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Theoretical limit on maximum number of NPCs on a region

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Hello,
As I recorded this clip
I was wondering how much more NPCs can be created in one region, I did not experience any slow down whatsoever. Or may be the question is not relevant because it just depends on the CPU resources and memory available. In any case, let me know.
Ramesh

--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

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Re: Theoretical limit on maximum number of NPCs on a region

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Hello,
Forgot to mention that the environment associated with the NPC clip was running on kitely. 
Ramesh

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,
As I recorded this clip
I was wondering how much more NPCs can be created in one region, I did not experience any slow down whatsoever. Or may be the question is not relevant because it just depends on the CPU resources and memory available. In any case, let me know.
Ramesh

--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

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Re: Theoretical limit on maximum number of NPCs on a region

Dahlia Trimble
Scripted NPCs have much less overhead than normal avatars and are probably not much more load than any other scripted physical object as they don't have any networking overhead or require remote scene state synchronization as normal avatars/viewers do. What would matter is how many normal viewers are sharing the region, as any NPC appearances and actions would need to be sent to all viewers. So, having a few hundred NPCs might work when only one normal avatar is present but would likely bog down and fail as more normal avatars are added.

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,
Forgot to mention that the environment associated with the NPC clip was running on kitely. 
Ramesh

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,
As I recorded this clip
I was wondering how much more NPCs can be created in one region, I did not experience any slow down whatsoever. Or may be the question is not relevant because it just depends on the CPU resources and memory available. In any case, let me know.
Ramesh

--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040

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Re: Theoretical limit on maximum number of NPCs on a region

Michael Emory Cerquoni
The biggest bottleneck for NPCs will be the Viewer and its ability to render them, I have had 1000+ very basic almost near ruth like NPCs running around no problem, however as you will see in this video > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljLlbF0mzwQ  that 40 of my alien avatars which is aproximately 150,000 prims moving around really does a number on the viewer, just make sure your avatars are as optimized as possible and you can easily have 100's of NPCs no problem.

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Dahlia Trimble <[hidden email]> wrote:
Scripted NPCs have much less overhead than normal avatars and are probably not much more load than any other scripted physical object as they don't have any networking overhead or require remote scene state synchronization as normal avatars/viewers do. What would matter is how many normal viewers are sharing the region, as any NPC appearances and actions would need to be sent to all viewers. So, having a few hundred NPCs might work when only one normal avatar is present but would likely bog down and fail as more normal avatars are added.

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,
Forgot to mention that the environment associated with the NPC clip was running on kitely. 
Ramesh

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,
As I recorded this clip
I was wondering how much more NPCs can be created in one region, I did not experience any slow down whatsoever. Or may be the question is not relevant because it just depends on the CPU resources and memory available. In any case, let me know.
Ramesh

--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040

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Michael Emory Cerquoni

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Re: Theoretical limit on maximum number of NPCs on a region

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Thanks for sharing, the info you shared will keep my enthusiasm within reasonable bounds :)
Ramesh

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 6:55 PM, Michael Emory Cerquoni <[hidden email]> wrote:
The biggest bottleneck for NPCs will be the Viewer and its ability to render them, I have had 1000+ very basic almost near ruth like NPCs running around no problem, however as you will see in this video > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljLlbF0mzwQ  that 40 of my alien avatars which is aproximately 150,000 prims moving around really does a number on the viewer, just make sure your avatars are as optimized as possible and you can easily have 100's of NPCs no problem.

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 6:49 PM, Dahlia Trimble <[hidden email]> wrote:
Scripted NPCs have much less overhead than normal avatars and are probably not much more load than any other scripted physical object as they don't have any networking overhead or require remote scene state synchronization as normal avatars/viewers do. What would matter is how many normal viewers are sharing the region, as any NPC appearances and actions would need to be sent to all viewers. So, having a few hundred NPCs might work when only one normal avatar is present but would likely bog down and fail as more normal avatars are added.

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 2:14 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,
Forgot to mention that the environment associated with the NPC clip was running on kitely. 
Ramesh

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 5:11 PM, Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hello,
As I recorded this clip
I was wondering how much more NPCs can be created in one region, I did not experience any slow down whatsoever. Or may be the question is not relevant because it just depends on the CPU resources and memory available. In any case, let me know.
Ramesh

--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040



--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: <a href="tel:208-240-0040" value="+12082400040" target="_blank">208-240-0040

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--
Michael Emory Cerquoni

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--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

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Re: Theoretical limit on maximum number of NPCs on a region

DZ-2
In reply to this post by Dr Ramesh Ramloll

From: Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]>
...
I was wondering how much more NPCs can be created in one region, I did not
experience any slow down whatsoever. Or may be the question is not relevant
because it just depends on the CPU resources and memory available. In any
case, let me know.
Ramesh


I have been doing NPC development and testing on the MOSES grid for almost a year now.
My NPCs are 1/2 scale rigged mesh with prim and mesh objects attached to them.  They are also all equipped with an AO attached as a HUD object.  I cannot say that I am aware of any theoretical limit on the number that can be placed in a region, but there are practical limits when you start generating large numbers. 

One of the load tests I designed used 24 synchronized NPC generators to put 2800 NPC avatars into a "regular" 0.7.6 OpenSim region.  Each of the avatars was seated on a scripted bench, which cycled through a series of animations.  Subsets (40-200) of the NPCs were directed to walk/run/fly between predetermined destinations and then return to their benches.  All 2800 of the NPC's were then logged out.   The load test was considered successful only if all portions of the test were completed without crashing the server.   As a practical matter, it took almost an hour to log all of the NPCs in.  Once all the NPCs were in world, groups of 20 were "activated" to move around the sim for approximately 45 minutes. As many as 300 NPCs were "mobile" at any single time. It then took more than an hour to log them all back out.  Sim performance was dependent on a number of factors, and was seemed most affected by generating the NPCs,  using in-world scripted objects  to communicate the destinations they were to move to, and then the process of logging them out.  If I eliminate the "walking around" aspect of the tests, I have had as many as 3400 NPCs in a region at one time. 

Doug Osborn

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Re: Theoretical limit on maximum number of NPCs on a region

Dr Ramesh Ramloll
Thanks Doug for sharing. What you are doing is indeed impressive. 3400 is pretty high and to know that a region still functions with so many NPCs is kind of comforting to me.
Ramesh

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 11:16 PM, dz <[hidden email]> wrote:

From: Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]>
...
I was wondering how much more NPCs can be created in one region, I did not
experience any slow down whatsoever. Or may be the question is not relevant
because it just depends on the CPU resources and memory available. In any
case, let me know.
Ramesh


I have been doing NPC development and testing on the MOSES grid for almost a year now.
My NPCs are 1/2 scale rigged mesh with prim and mesh objects attached to them.  They are also all equipped with an AO attached as a HUD object.  I cannot say that I am aware of any theoretical limit on the number that can be placed in a region, but there are practical limits when you start generating large numbers. 

One of the load tests I designed used 24 synchronized NPC generators to put 2800 NPC avatars into a "regular" 0.7.6 OpenSim region.  Each of the avatars was seated on a scripted bench, which cycled through a series of animations.  Subsets (40-200) of the NPCs were directed to walk/run/fly between predetermined destinations and then return to their benches.  All 2800 of the NPC's were then logged out.   The load test was considered successful only if all portions of the test were completed without crashing the server.   As a practical matter, it took almost an hour to log all of the NPCs in.  Once all the NPCs were in world, groups of 20 were "activated" to move around the sim for approximately 45 minutes. As many as 300 NPCs were "mobile" at any single time. It then took more than an hour to log them all back out.  Sim performance was dependent on a number of factors, and was seemed most affected by generating the NPCs,  using in-world scripted objects  to communicate the destinations they were to move to, and then the process of logging them out.  If I eliminate the "walking around" aspect of the tests, I have had as many as 3400 NPCs in a region at one time. 

Doug Osborn

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--
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, CEO CTO DeepSemaphore LLC, Affiliate Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-240-0040

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Re: Theoretical limit on maximum number of NPCs on a region

Justin Smith
In reply to this post by DZ-2
If you're using DSG, how many cores are supporting this usage?

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 11, 2014, at 11:16 PM, dz <[hidden email]> wrote:


From: Dr Ramesh Ramloll <[hidden email]>
...
I was wondering how much more NPCs can be created in one region, I did not
experience any slow down whatsoever. Or may be the question is not relevant
because it just depends on the CPU resources and memory available. In any
case, let me know.
Ramesh


I have been doing NPC development and testing on the MOSES grid for almost a year now.
My NPCs are 1/2 scale rigged mesh with prim and mesh objects attached to them.  They are also all equipped with an AO attached as a HUD object.  I cannot say that I am aware of any theoretical limit on the number that can be placed in a region, but there are practical limits when you start generating large numbers. 

One of the load tests I designed used 24 synchronized NPC generators to put 2800 NPC avatars into a "regular" 0.7.6 OpenSim region.  Each of the avatars was seated on a scripted bench, which cycled through a series of animations.  Subsets (40-200) of the NPCs were directed to walk/run/fly between predetermined destinations and then return to their benches.  All 2800 of the NPC's were then logged out.   The load test was considered successful only if all portions of the test were completed without crashing the server.   As a practical matter, it took almost an hour to log all of the NPCs in.  Once all the NPCs were in world, groups of 20 were "activated" to move around the sim for approximately 45 minutes. As many as 300 NPCs were "mobile" at any single time. It then took more than an hour to log them all back out.  Sim performance was dependent on a number of factors, and was seemed most affected by generating the NPCs,  using in-world scripted objects  to communicate the destinations they were to move to, and then the process of logging them out.  If I eliminate the "walking around" aspect of the tests, I have had as many as 3400 NPCs in a region at one time. 

Doug Osborn
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Re: Theoretical limit on maximum number of NPCs on a region

DZ-2
In reply to this post by Dr Ramesh Ramloll



Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2014 13:50:04 -0400
From: Justin Smith <[hidden email]>


If you're using DSG, how many cores are supporting this usage?


The NPC testing was completed on my MOSES estate region which is NOT DSG enabled.  It is my belief that the estate regions were running "vanilla" OpenSim 0.7.6 code in a CentOS VM.  I do not know how many cores or how much RAM was dedicated to the VM, but the only config changes I requested were enabling NPC's  and allowing OS Functions with a threat level of VeryHigh.  I would expect that an 8 core machine with significant memory was involved as a base server, but I cannot say how many VMs/regions were active on that server at the time of the tests. 

Doug



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Re: Theoretical limit on maximum number of NPCs ona region

drwhiet@spacefriends.de
In reply to this post by Michael Emory Cerquoni
Dear Devs (and Users),
 
is there a way, to detach an item, attached to an avatar with the
osForceAttachToOtherAvatarFromInventory command.
Some kind off osForceDetachfromAvatar .. 
osForceDropAttachment(); does not seem to work
 
best regards,
Wordfromthe Wise
 
And sorry for Crossposting, but i could not decide who could have an answer ..

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