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Re: Virtual World Currency gets more complicated

Karen_Palen
Sorry, I thought that people would use this as a pointer to read the actual articles and the comments.

My position is far from a simple "do it" or "don't do it", but rather "be aware of all the implications and check with a good lawyer FIRST!"

Most of us (myself included) run a private grid just as a hobby - I have no plans to make money from it ever! Even if people donate to the expenses this MAY be seen as being similar to a group sharing the expenses of a camping trip, many of the speciality grids are presently run like that.

On the other hand, the minute you actually "do business" on your grid though, you ARE a business and a whole different set of rules apply!

The trouble is the term "doing business" has a different definition in just about every part of the world!. If you buy and sell things for a profit (even virtual things) then you are clearly a business though.

That has implications about liability and insurance, licensing of various sorts, and a total lack of any "consumer protection" laws!

Taxes are one aspect, but others are money laundering laws, currency exchange laws, accounting requirements, and gambling laws. Gambling is what the Korean lawsuit was about, the game players were accused of gambling and faced jail time for it. The court found that they "earned" the money, freeing them from that problem, but opening up many others.

There are also laws about "fiduciary responsibility", in other words if you handle someone else's money then you have certain "duties of care" under the law. In some cases you can be criminally liable for not knowing and following these laws, Bernie Madoff is an extreme example.

It is entirely possible that someone who simply sells a US$1 item at an inworld flea market could be held to be part of the "management" and lose everything they own because of a mistake made in managing the grid! House, cars and (ARRRGGH!) computers included!

One of the companies I manage (an LLC) is pursuing someone for violating securities laws because they did not provide all of the paperwork to me on time (they waited 6 months, by which time both the investment and the promised security were worthless). It is unlikely, but that person could do jail time for that oversight. It is VERY likely that they will end up paying 25% of their income for the rest of their life though!

Forming an LLC will likely be your first step, for a good article about this see:

http://www.realestatetaxlaw.com/choice%20of%20entity%20101.html

DO NOT take as much as L$1 in world until you have studied this and all of the other material around about starting and running a small business!

My point is simply this: once you take money there are a whole lot of new rules that apply and you had better know those rules!

Did I make myself clear this time? :-)

Karen

--- On Tue, 1/19/10, lamont cranston <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: lamont cranston <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual World Currency gets more complicated
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 5:09 PM
> if the currency is real, then you need to be
> cautious.
> The tax man is watching.
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 5:32 PM,
> Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Ok so your point here is that we
> should NOT go live with currency ? because I am lost as to
> what the point it is your trying to make here.
>
> Sonya
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:14 PM,
> Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>
> This is from today's slashdot.org
>
>
>
>
> I know many OpenSim users are planning to set up soem form
> of currency exchange on their grids. THis si one of the
> aspects that needs to be considered before "going
> live".
>
>
>
> Karen
>
>
>
> http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/01/19/1653240/Virtual-Currency-Becomes-Real-In-South-Korea
>
>
>
>
>
>  Virtual Currency Becomes Real In South Korea on Tuesday
> January 19, @01:29PM
>
> Posted by Soulskill on Tuesday January 19, @01:29PM
>
> from the license-to-print-money dept.
>
> money
>
> garylian writes "Massively is reporting that the South
> Korean Supreme Court has stated that virtual currency is the
> equivalent of real-world money. For those of you who might
> not be drawing the link, the core there is that selling
> in-game currency for real money is essentially just an
> exchange of currency and perfectly legal in South Korea.
> This could have sweeping implications for RMT operations the
> world over, not to mention free-to-play games and... well,
> online games in general. The official story is available
> online from JoongAng Daily."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> (\__/)
> (='.'=)
> (")_(")
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>


     
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Re: Virtual World Currency gets more complicated

Jane Foxclaw
In reply to this post by lamont cranston
If it happens it happens.. I'll just stop messing with Virtual Sims at that point. No point in giving money away to government. Make them earn it like they never have in the past.

On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 7:09 PM, lamont cranston <[hidden email]> wrote:
if the currency is real, then you need to be cautious.
The tax man is watching.


On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 5:32 PM, Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]> wrote:
Ok so your point here is that we should NOT go live with currency ? because I am lost as to what the point it is your trying to make here.

Sonya


On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:14 PM, Karen Palen <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is from today's slashdot.org

I know many OpenSim users are planning to set up soem form of currency exchange on their grids. THis si one of the aspects that needs to be considered before "going live".

Karen

http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/01/19/1653240/Virtual-Currency-Becomes-Real-In-South-Korea

 Virtual Currency Becomes Real In South Korea on Tuesday January 19, @01:29PM
Posted by Soulskill on Tuesday January 19, @01:29PM
from the license-to-print-money dept.
money
garylian writes "Massively is reporting that the South Korean Supreme Court has stated that virtual currency is the equivalent of real-world money. For those of you who might not be drawing the link, the core there is that selling in-game currency for real money is essentially just an exchange of currency and perfectly legal in South Korea. This could have sweeping implications for RMT operations the world over, not to mention free-to-play games and... well, online games in general. The official story is available online from JoongAng Daily."



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--
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(='.'=)
(")_(")

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Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual World Currency gets more complicated

Karen_Palen
Actually that (and the other things I outlined in my earlier email) is one reason I NEVER intend to run my grid "for profit".

If you ever plan to run a grid "for profit", do look at the rest of John Hyre's website though. He has a lot for good material and IMHO the right attitude about taxes. His tax law business is oriented to real world real estate, but many of the concepts carry over to the "virtual real estate" which is the only actual "product" sold by Second Life and most OpenSim grids that I have seen.

BTW he would call you a wimp for "knuckling under" and not beating the government (IRS in this case) at their own game. He is nothing if not outspoken :-)

Karen
--- On Tue, 1/19/10, Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual World Currency gets more complicated
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 6:18 PM
> If it happens it happens.. I'll just
> stop messing with Virtual Sims at that point. No point in
> giving money away to government. Make them earn it like they
> never have in the past.
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 7:09 PM,
> lamont cranston <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> if the
> currency is real, then you need to be cautious.
> The tax man is watching.
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 5:32 PM,
> Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Ok so your point here is that we
> should NOT go live with currency ? because I am lost as to
> what the point it is your trying to make here.
>
>
> Sonya
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:14 PM,
> Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> This is from today's slashdot.org
>
>
>
>
> I know many OpenSim users are planning to set up soem form
> of currency exchange on their grids. THis si one of the
> aspects that needs to be considered before "going
> live".
>
>
>
> Karen
>
>
>
> http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/01/19/1653240/Virtual-Currency-Becomes-Real-In-South-Korea
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Virtual Currency Becomes Real In South Korea on Tuesday
> January 19, @01:29PM
>
> Posted by Soulskill on Tuesday January 19, @01:29PM
>
> from the license-to-print-money dept.
>
> money
>
> garylian writes "Massively is reporting that the South
> Korean Supreme Court has stated that virtual currency is the
> equivalent of real-world money. For those of you who might
> not be drawing the link, the core there is that selling
> in-game currency for real money is essentially just an
> exchange of currency and perfectly legal in South Korea.
> This could have sweeping implications for RMT operations the
> world over, not to mention free-to-play games and... well,
> online games in general. The official story is available
> online from JoongAng Daily."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> (\__/)
> (='.'=)
> (")_(")
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>


     
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Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual World Currency gets more complicated

Jane Foxclaw
He and I would get along then. I'm the same way. I speak my mind, even though some say I have a HUGE ego, which i do for a reason..  but I do admit it.. lol

I would surely run my Grid as a Non-profit if it came down to it. It really depends on the situation.

John

On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM, Karen Palen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Actually that (and the other things I outlined in my earlier email) is one reason I NEVER intend to run my grid "for profit".

If you ever plan to run a grid "for profit", do look at the rest of John Hyre's website though. He has a lot for good material and IMHO the right attitude about taxes. His tax law business is oriented to real world real estate, but many of the concepts carry over to the "virtual real estate" which is the only actual "product" sold by Second Life and most OpenSim grids that I have seen.

BTW he would call you a wimp for "knuckling under" and not beating the government (IRS in this case) at their own game. He is nothing if not outspoken :-)

Karen
--- On Tue, 1/19/10, Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual World Currency gets more complicated
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 6:18 PM
> If it happens it happens.. I'll just
> stop messing with Virtual Sims at that point. No point in
> giving money away to government. Make them earn it like they
> never have in the past.
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 7:09 PM,
> lamont cranston <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> if the
> currency is real, then you need to be cautious.
> The tax man is watching.
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 5:32 PM,
> Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Ok so your point here is that we
> should NOT go live with currency ? because I am lost as to
> what the point it is your trying to make here.
>
>
> Sonya
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:14 PM,
> Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> This is from today's slashdot.org
>
>
>
>
> I know many OpenSim users are planning to set up soem form
> of currency exchange on their grids. THis si one of the
> aspects that needs to be considered before "going
> live".
>
>
>
> Karen
>
>
>
> http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/01/19/1653240/Virtual-Currency-Becomes-Real-In-South-Korea
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  Virtual Currency Becomes Real In South Korea on Tuesday
> January 19, @01:29PM
>
> Posted by Soulskill on Tuesday January 19, @01:29PM
>
> from the license-to-print-money dept.
>
> money
>
> garylian writes "Massively is reporting that the South
> Korean Supreme Court has stated that virtual currency is the
> equivalent of real-world money. For those of you who might
> not be drawing the link, the core there is that selling
> in-game currency for real money is essentially just an
> exchange of currency and perfectly legal in South Korea.
> This could have sweeping implications for RMT operations the
> world over, not to mention free-to-play games and... well,
> online games in general. The official story is available
> online from JoongAng Daily."
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> (\__/)
> (='.'=)
> (")_(")
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual World Currency gets more complicated

Karen_Palen
My favourite quote from him is that the US Tax code is a high stakes game played with a 500,000 page rulebook! He delights in finding sets of rules in one place that contradict others and using the result to save his clients tax money.

Many of his clients pay ZERO income tax BTW.

Karen

--- On Tue, 1/19/10, Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual World Currency gets more complicated
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 8:36 PM
> He and I would get along then. I'm the
> same way. I speak my mind, even though some say I have a
> HUGE ego, which i do for a reason..  but I do admit it..
> lol
> I would surely run my Grid as a Non-profit if it
> came down to it. It really depends on the situation.
>
> John
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM,
> Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Actually that (and the other things I outlined in my
> earlier email) is one reason I NEVER intend to run my grid
> "for profit".
>
>
>
> If you ever plan to run a grid "for profit", do
> look at the rest of John Hyre's website though. He has a
> lot for good material and IMHO the right attitude about
> taxes. His tax law business is oriented to real world real
> estate, but many of the concepts carry over to the
> "virtual real estate" which is the only actual
> "product" sold by Second Life and most OpenSim
> grids that I have seen.
>
>
>
>
> BTW he would call you a wimp for "knuckling
> under" and not beating the government (IRS in this
> case) at their own game. He is nothing if not outspoken :-)
>
>
>
> Karen
>
> --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > From: Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
>
> > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual
> World Currency gets more complicated
>
> > To: [hidden email]
>
> > Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 6:18 PM
>
> > If it happens it
> happens.. I'll just
>
> > stop messing with Virtual Sims at that point. No point
> in
>
> > giving money away to government. Make them earn it
> like they
>
> > never have in the past.
>
> >
>
> > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 7:09 PM,
>
> > lamont cranston <[hidden email]>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > if the
>
> > currency is real, then you need to be cautious.
>
> > The tax man is watching.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 5:32 PM,
>
> > Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Ok so your point here is that we
>
> > should NOT go live with currency ? because I am lost
> as to
>
> > what the point it is your trying to make here.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Sonya
>
> >
>
> > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:14 PM,
>
> > Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > This is from today's slashdot.org
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I know many OpenSim users are planning to set up soem
> form
>
> > of currency exchange on their grids. THis si one of
> the
>
> > aspects that needs to be considered before
> "going
>
> > live".
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Karen
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/01/19/1653240/Virtual-Currency-Becomes-Real-In-South-Korea
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >  Virtual Currency Becomes Real In South Korea on
> Tuesday
>
> > January 19, @01:29PM
>
> >
>
> > Posted by Soulskill on Tuesday January 19, @01:29PM
>
> >
>
> > from the license-to-print-money dept.
>
> >
>
> > money
>
> >
>
> > garylian writes "Massively is reporting that the
> South
>
> > Korean Supreme Court has stated that virtual currency
> is the
>
> > equivalent of real-world money. For those of you who
> might
>
> > not be drawing the link, the core there is that
> selling
>
> > in-game currency for real money is essentially just
> an
>
> > exchange of currency and perfectly legal in South
> Korea.
>
> > This could have sweeping implications for RMT
> operations the
>
> > world over, not to mention free-to-play games and...
> well,
>
> > online games in general. The official story is
> available
>
> > online from JoongAng Daily."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> >
>
> > Opensim-users mailing list
>
> >
>
> > [hidden email]
>
> >
>
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> >
>
> > Opensim-users mailing list
>
> >
>
> > [hidden email]
>
> >
>
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > (\__/)
>
> > (='.'=)
>
> > (")_(")
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> >
>
> > Opensim-users mailing list
>
> >
>
> > [hidden email]
>
> >
>
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> > Opensim-users mailing list
>
> > [hidden email]
>
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>


     
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Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual World Currency gets more complicated

lamont cranston
For users, if the money is real, and if US law sees it that way, it becomes a just another normal business transaction to exchange virtual goods. And that includes sales taxes, and IRS income reporting.

It really isn't that far fetched -

The reason Bob  paid 500 USD for a golf club is because of the increased enjoyment he gets from having it; it impresses other, knowledgeable players, and increases his enjoyment of the game.

The reason Alice paid 1200 L$/Meta/WoWgold for a virtual item is because of the increased enjoyment she gets from having it; it impresses other, knowledgeable players, and increases her enjoyment of the game.

Similar transactions, with similar reasons for making the transactions. Why, in the mind of a tax lawyer, should they be treated differently? Bob paid his state's sales tax, why shouldn't Mary? From a tax man's view, the virtual is an improvement on the physical, because every exchange must be documented, by a central authority.

For the person/company running the world, they are literally playing "bank" since they are holding real assets for users - the whole idea of "fiduciary obligations", as others mentioned, kicks in. Since a server crash could deny someone the peaceable use of their property, that could be a potential hassle as well...

"money laundering" is an interesting angle, although the virtual realm is not the most appealing way to actually bury a transaction (imagine trying to move 50,000USD into and out of a sim, in a reasonable amount of time, given that most transactions are way below 1USD. You can see that buying and selling a car would be more attractive)
But common sense is not the usual attribute of a tax agency.






On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:58 AM, Karen Palen <[hidden email]> wrote:
My favourite quote from him is that the US Tax code is a high stakes game played with a 500,000 page rulebook! He delights in finding sets of rules in one place that contradict others and using the result to save his clients tax money.

Many of his clients pay ZERO income tax BTW.

Karen

--- On Tue, 1/19/10, Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual World Currency gets more complicated
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 8:36 PM
> He and I would get along then. I'm the
> same way. I speak my mind, even though some say I have a
> HUGE ego, which i do for a reason..  but I do admit it..
> lol
> I would surely run my Grid as a Non-profit if it
> came down to it. It really depends on the situation.
>
> John
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM,
> Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> Actually that (and the other things I outlined in my
> earlier email) is one reason I NEVER intend to run my grid
> "for profit".
>
>
>
> If you ever plan to run a grid "for profit", do
> look at the rest of John Hyre's website though. He has a
> lot for good material and IMHO the right attitude about
> taxes. His tax law business is oriented to real world real
> estate, but many of the concepts carry over to the
> "virtual real estate" which is the only actual
> "product" sold by Second Life and most OpenSim
> grids that I have seen.
>
>
>
>
> BTW he would call you a wimp for "knuckling
> under" and not beating the government (IRS in this
> case) at their own game. He is nothing if not outspoken :-)
>
>
>
> Karen
>
> --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > From: Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
>
> > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual
> World Currency gets more complicated
>
> > To: [hidden email]
>
> > Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 6:18 PM
>
> > If it happens it
> happens.. I'll just
>
> > stop messing with Virtual Sims at that point. No point
> in
>
> > giving money away to government. Make them earn it
> like they
>
> > never have in the past.
>
> >
>
> > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 7:09 PM,
>
> > lamont cranston <[hidden email]>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > if the
>
> > currency is real, then you need to be cautious.
>
> > The tax man is watching.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 5:32 PM,
>
> > Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Ok so your point here is that we
>
> > should NOT go live with currency ? because I am lost
> as to
>
> > what the point it is your trying to make here.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Sonya
>
> >
>
> > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:14 PM,
>
> > Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > This is from today's slashdot.org
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > I know many OpenSim users are planning to set up soem
> form
>
> > of currency exchange on their grids. THis si one of
> the
>
> > aspects that needs to be considered before
> "going
>
> > live".
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Karen
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/01/19/1653240/Virtual-Currency-Becomes-Real-In-South-Korea
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >  Virtual Currency Becomes Real In South Korea on
> Tuesday
>
> > January 19, @01:29PM
>
> >
>
> > Posted by Soulskill on Tuesday January 19, @01:29PM
>
> >
>
> > from the license-to-print-money dept.
>
> >
>
> > money
>
> >
>
> > garylian writes "Massively is reporting that the
> South
>
> > Korean Supreme Court has stated that virtual currency
> is the
>
> > equivalent of real-world money. For those of you who
> might
>
> > not be drawing the link, the core there is that
> selling
>
> > in-game currency for real money is essentially just
> an
>
> > exchange of currency and perfectly legal in South
> Korea.
>
> > This could have sweeping implications for RMT
> operations the
>
> > world over, not to mention free-to-play games and...
> well,
>
> > online games in general. The official story is
> available
>
> > online from JoongAng Daily."
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> >
>
> > Opensim-users mailing list
>
> >
>
> > [hidden email]
>
> >
>
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> >
>
> > Opensim-users mailing list
>
> >
>
> > [hidden email]
>
> >
>
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> >
>
> > Opensim-users mailing list
>
> >
>
> > [hidden email]
>
> >
>
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> > Opensim-users mailing list
>
> > [hidden email]
>
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>



_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--


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[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
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Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual World Currency gets more complicated

Marcus Alexander Link
I am currently working on a user generated currency (open source) called 'Geo'.
The 'currency' is generated by taking part in skill or knowledge achieving activities and can be used with our vendors as well as within your project (API). Please contact me for further information.

If you are also interested in augmented reality, you can meet me at the upcoming "ARDevCamp in Frankfurt/M. 23.01.2010"


Datum/Date: Samstag, 23. 01. 2010
Ort/Location: Uni Frankfurt, Campus Bockenheim
Raum: Saal III
Start: 10:00h
Ende/End: 17:00h

You can sign up here:


Regards

Marcus
phone: +49 (0) 176 48 157 940

_______________________________________________
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Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual World Currency gets more complicated

Karen_Palen
In reply to this post by lamont cranston
Certainly the experiences of Second Life and World Of Warcraft show that most authorities (US, European, and Asian) treat "in world" money as real money. The only condition seems to be that you can somehow convert both to and from a real world currency to the virtual currency.

This is certainly not a "show stopper" which would prevent an in world currency, nor do  intend to imply that it is.

However since there has not been any reasonable form of in world currency for the OpenSim based grids so far, all of these grids and sims have been operated without any need to consider these issues.

In various private email exchanges with different sim owners, I have been alarmed at the rush to simply "include a currency scheme" into their worlds without considering the implications of such a move.

Both Second Life and World of Warcraft had amply illustrated the problems involved and there is no need to repeat their mistakes!

I agree that "money laundering" as we normally conceive it is unlikely, but you only have to look at the history of PGP encryption for an example of what can happen:

"Shortly after its release, PGP encryption found its way outside the United States, and in February 1993 Zimmermann became the formal target of a criminal investigation by the US Government for "munitions export without a license"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pretty_Good_Privacy

There are a great many such examples which are not as well known.

Most real world laws and taxes are based on the location of the transaction, this loctaion is very hard to define for a virtual world transaction.

How does one figure out depreciation on virtual goods or in world land?

I am sure anyone reading this can supply more such questions.

Karen

--- On Wed, 1/20/10, lamont cranston <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: lamont cranston <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual World Currency gets more complicated
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Wednesday, January 20, 2010, 1:30 PM
> For users, if the money is real, and if US
> law sees it that way, it becomes a just another normal
> business transaction to exchange virtual goods. And that
> includes sales taxes, and IRS income reporting.
>
> It really isn't that far fetched -
>
>
> The reason Bob  paid 500 USD for a golf club is because of
> the increased enjoyment he gets from having it; it impresses
> other, knowledgeable players, and increases his enjoyment of
> the game.
>
> The reason Alice paid 1200 L$/Meta/WoWgold for a virtual
> item is because of the increased enjoyment she gets from
> having it; it
> impresses other, knowledgeable players, and increases her
> enjoyment of
> the game.
>
> Similar transactions, with similar reasons for making the
> transactions. Why, in the mind of a tax lawyer, should they
> be treated differently? Bob paid his state's sales tax,
> why shouldn't Mary? From a tax man's view, the
> virtual is an improvement on the physical, because every
> exchange must be documented, by a central authority.
>
>
> For the person/company running the world, they are
> literally playing "bank" since they are holding
> real assets for users - the whole idea of "fiduciary
> obligations", as others mentioned, kicks in. Since a
> server crash could deny someone the peaceable use of their
> property, that could be a potential hassle as well...
>
>
> "money laundering" is an interesting angle,
> although the virtual realm is not the most appealing way to
> actually bury a transaction (imagine trying to move
> 50,000USD into and out of a sim, in a reasonable amount of
> time, given that most transactions are way below 1USD. You
> can see that buying and selling a car would be more
> attractive)
>
> But common sense is not the usual attribute of a tax
> agency.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jan 20, 2010 at 3:58 AM,
> Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
> My favourite quote from him is that
> the US Tax code is a high stakes game played with a 500,000
> page rulebook! He delights in finding sets of rules in one
> place that contradict others and using the result to save
> his clients tax money.
>
>
>
>
> Many of his clients pay ZERO income tax BTW.
>
>
>
> Karen
>
>
>
> --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>
>
>
> > From: Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
>
> > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual World Currency
> gets more complicated
>
> > To: [hidden email]
>
> > Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 8:36 PM
>
> > He and I would get
> along then. I'm the
>
> > same way. I speak my mind, even though some say I have
> a
>
> > HUGE ego, which i do for a reason..  but I do admit
> it..
>
> > lol
>
> > I would surely run my Grid as a Non-profit if it
>
> > came down to it. It really depends on the situation.
>
> >
>
> > John
>
> >
>
> > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 9:27 PM,
>
> > Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > Actually that (and the other things I outlined in my
>
> > earlier email) is one reason I NEVER intend to run my
> grid
>
> > "for profit".
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > If you ever plan to run a grid "for profit",
> do
>
> > look at the rest of John Hyre's website though. He
> has a
>
> > lot for good material and IMHO the right attitude
> about
>
> > taxes. His tax law business is oriented to real world
> real
>
> > estate, but many of the concepts carry over to the
>
> > "virtual real estate" which is the only
> actual
>
> > "product" sold by Second Life and most
> OpenSim
>
> > grids that I have seen.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > BTW he would call you a wimp for "knuckling
>
> > under" and not beating the government (IRS in
> this
>
> > case) at their own game. He is nothing if not
> outspoken :-)
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Karen
>
> >
>
> > --- On Tue, 1/19/10, Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > > From: Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
>
> >
>
> > > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] Virtual
>
> > World Currency gets more complicated
>
> >
>
> > > To: [hidden email]
>
> >
>
> > > Date: Tuesday, January 19, 2010, 6:18 PM
>
> >
>
> > > If it happens it
>
> > happens.. I'll just
>
> >
>
> > > stop messing with Virtual Sims at that point. No
> point
>
> > in
>
> >
>
> > > giving money away to government. Make them earn
> it
>
> > like they
>
> >
>
> > > never have in the past.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 7:09 PM,
>
> >
>
> > > lamont cranston <[hidden email]>
>
> >
>
> > > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > if the
>
> >
>
> > > currency is real, then you need to be cautious.
>
> >
>
> > > The tax man is watching.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 5:32 PM,
>
> >
>
> > > Jane Foxclaw <[hidden email]>
>
> >
>
> > > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Ok so your point here is that we
>
> >
>
> > > should NOT go live with currency ? because I am
> lost
>
> > as to
>
> >
>
> > > what the point it is your trying to make here.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Sonya
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > On Tue, Jan 19, 2010 at 4:14 PM,
>
> >
>
> > > Karen Palen <[hidden email]>
>
> >
>
> > > wrote:
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > This is from today's slashdot.org
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > I know many OpenSim users are planning to set up
> soem
>
> > form
>
> >
>
> > > of currency exchange on their grids. THis si one
> of
>
> > the
>
> >
>
> > > aspects that needs to be considered before
>
> > "going
>
> >
>
> > > live".
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Karen
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > http://games.slashdot.org/story/10/01/19/1653240/Virtual-Currency-Becomes-Real-In-South-Korea
>
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >  Virtual Currency Becomes Real In South Korea
> on
>
> > Tuesday
>
> >
>
> > > January 19, @01:29PM
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Posted by Soulskill on Tuesday January 19,
> @01:29PM
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > from the license-to-print-money dept.
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > money
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > garylian writes "Massively is reporting that
> the
>
> > South
>
> >
>
> > > Korean Supreme Court has stated that virtual
> currency
>
> > is the
>
> >
>
> > > equivalent of real-world money. For those of you
> who
>
> > might
>
> >
>
> > > not be drawing the link, the core there is that
>
> > selling
>
> >
>
> > > in-game currency for real money is essentially
> just
>
> > an
>
> >
>
> > > exchange of currency and perfectly legal in
> South
>
> > Korea.
>
> >
>
> > > This could have sweeping implications for RMT
>
> > operations the
>
> >
>
> > > world over, not to mention free-to-play games
> and...
>
> > well,
>
> >
>
> > > online games in general. The official story is
>
> > available
>
> >
>
> > > online from JoongAng Daily."
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > _______________________________________________
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Opensim-users mailing list
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > [hidden email]
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > _______________________________________________
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Opensim-users mailing list
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > [hidden email]
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > --
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > _______________________________________________
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > Opensim-users mailing list
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > [hidden email]
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> > > _______________________________________________
>
> >
>
> > > Opensim-users mailing list
>
> >
>
> > > [hidden email]
>
> >
>
> > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> >
>
> > Opensim-users mailing list
>
> >
>
> > [hidden email]
>
> >
>
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> >
>
> > _______________________________________________
>
> > Opensim-users mailing list
>
> > [hidden email]
>
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> Opensim-users mailing list
>
> [hidden email]
>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>


     
_______________________________________________
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[hidden email]
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Re: [Opensim-users] vivox account?

Dr Scofield
In reply to this post by Frisby, Adam
On 01/18/2010 11:39 PM, Frisby, Adam wrote:
> Just a note, they do not officially support OpenSim yet (*nudge nudge if
> they read this*), so you might not have a horrible amount of luck unless
> you are willing to spend big.

yes, that's what i've heard second hand as well, sigh. my expectation was that
once we did the vivox module they'd be happy selling accounts and generate some
revenue... a pity really since the module works rather well and voice quality is
rather good.

oh well. let's hope the mumble effort will turn out...

        cheers,
        dirk


>
>  
>
> Regards,
>
>  
>
> Adam
>
>  
>
> *From:* [hidden email]
> [mailto:[hidden email]] *On Behalf Of *Jane Foxclaw
> *Sent:* Monday, 18 January 2010 9:00 AM
> *To:* [hidden email]
> *Subject:* Re: [Opensim-users] vivox account?
>
>  
>
> 888-28-VIVOX or 508-650-3571
>
>  
>
> Those two are their phone numbers to get ahold of them.
>
>  
>
> Sonya
>
> On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Jeroen van Veen <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Does anyone know the procedure how to get a vivox account? I tried to mail
> them at [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>, but no-one ever
> responds. I figured it would be quite
> easy to get an account, since there is a vivox module in opensim. Any help
> would be appreciated.
>
> kind regards,
>
> Jeroen
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>  
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


--
dr dirk husemann ---- virtual worlds research ---- ibm zurich research lab
SL: dr scofield ---- [hidden email] ---- http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/
RL: [hidden email] - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/
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Re: [Opensim-users] vivox account?

Dr Scofield
In reply to this post by Jeroen van Veen
On 01/19/2010 09:51 AM, Jeroen van Veen wrote:
> Isn't this something that should live on the forge then, instead of dwelling
> somewhere in the OpenSim.ini as a proprietary solution?

good point. back when we did the vivox module we were under the impression that
vivox would be willing to sell licenses to opensim users and since the SL client
uses vivox it seemed like a good idea to include it in trunk.

on the other hand the SL client stack is proprietary as well, the vivox code at
least is known to work and some folks apparently have gotten vivox licenses...

        cheers,
        dirk

>
> Jeroen
>
> Op maandag 18 januari 2010 23:39:01 schreef Frisby, Adam:
>> Just a note, they do not officially support OpenSim yet (*nudge nudge if
>>  they read this*), so you might not have a horrible amount of luck unless
>>  you are willing to spend big.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Adam
>>
>> From: [hidden email]
>>  [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jane Foxclaw
>>  Sent: Monday, 18 January 2010 9:00 AM
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] vivox account?
>>
>> 888-28-VIVOX or 508-650-3571
>>
>> Those two are their phone numbers to get ahold of them.
>>
>> Sonya
>> On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Jeroen van Veen
>>  <[hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: Does anyone know
>>  the procedure how to get a vivox account? I tried to mail them at
>>  [hidden email]<mailto:[hidden email]>, but no-one ever responds. I figured
>>  it would be quite easy to get an account, since there is a vivox module in
>>  opensim. Any help would be appreciated.
>>
>> kind regards,
>>
>> Jeroen
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>>
> _______________________________________________
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--
dr dirk husemann ---- virtual worlds research ---- ibm zurich research lab
SL: dr scofield ---- [hidden email] ---- http://xyzzyxyzzy.net/
RL: [hidden email] - +41 44 724 8573 - http://www.zurich.ibm.com/~hud/
_______________________________________________
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