re-why not a real OS?

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re-why not a real OS?

Chris Kroninger
Sorry...I have been a lurker for a while, but if I read this right, windows
isn't considered a real OS?  It's my only choice, so does that make me not a
real "IT sort of person"?
0/13/10 13:34:00

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Re: re-why not a real OS?

Teravus Ovares
No, just ignore stuff like that.  

People say strange things..     you can let it roll off of you..   or you can let it bother you.

-Teravus

On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Chris Kroninger <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry...I have been a lurker for a while, but if I read this right, windows
isn't considered a real OS?  It's my only choice, so does that make me not a
real "IT sort of person"?
0/13/10 13:34:00

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Re: re-why not a real OS?

James Stallings II
In reply to this post by Chris Kroninger
Don't let the operating system religous trolls get ya Chris ;)

I'm a die-hard *nix man, but I generally prefer to deploy OpenSim on windows because mono blows goats.

From my original college Data Processing Fundamentals class back in the late 70s:

1. Pick your application
2. Pick the language that best implements it
3. Pick the best operating system that supports it (natively is to be preferred)
4. pick the hardware that runs that operating system

Cheers and best regards
James/Hiro

On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 8:42 PM, Chris Kroninger <[hidden email]> wrote:
Sorry...I have been a lurker for a while, but if I read this right, windows
isn't considered a real OS?  It's my only choice, so does that make me not a
real "IT sort of person"?
0/13/10 13:34:00

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Re: re-why not a real OS?

Ric Moore
In reply to this post by Chris Kroninger
On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 20:42 -0500, Chris Kroninger wrote:
> Sorry...I have been a lurker for a while, but if I read this right, windows
> isn't considered a real OS?  It's my only choice, so does that make me not a
> real "IT sort of person"?
> 0/13/10 13:34:00

Sorry. <cackles> :) Ric

--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256

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Re: re-why not a real OS?

Ric Moore
In reply to this post by James Stallings II
On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 21:19 -0500, James Stallings II wrote:
> Don't let the operating system religous trolls get ya Chris ;)
>
>
> I'm a die-hard *nix man, but I generally prefer to deploy OpenSim on
> windows because mono blows goats.

What are the disadvantages of using mono under Linux as opposed to using
Windows as a server?? I'm new, but after configing mysql, mono compiled
opensim and it fired immediately up, after the initial Q&A bit. That did
surprise as well as tickle me the heck out of me. It responds better
than Wonderland under Java, which I also have on my system.

Inquiring minds want to know. Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256

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Re: re-why not a real OS?

James Stallings II
Hi Ric,

Mainly the memory footprint. Certain things under mono take significantly more memory than they do under .net. To add insult to injury, none of mono's garbage collection (memory reclamation/recycling) are compacting garbage collectors, so while the process may clean up it's internal memory just fine, the the operating system is never able to recover below the memory 'high water mark' of the process.

This is set to improve with mono 2.8, which does have one such garbage collection option, but it is quite new and has yet to be thoroughly tested in an OpenSim context. Early testing indicate that it will be an improvement in this condition, but other issues do exist (sqlite for instance).

Do let us know if you have further questions, we're generally full of (ahem) answers ;)

Cheers and regards,

James/Hiro
SimHost.com


On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 10:28 PM, Ric Moore <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 21:19 -0500, James Stallings II wrote:
> Don't let the operating system religous trolls get ya Chris ;)
>
>
> I'm a die-hard *nix man, but I generally prefer to deploy OpenSim on
> windows because mono blows goats.

What are the disadvantages of using mono under Linux as opposed to using
Windows as a server?? I'm new, but after configing mysql, mono compiled
opensim and it fired immediately up, after the initial Q&A bit. That did
surprise as well as tickle me the heck out of me. It responds better
than Wonderland under Java, which I also have on my system.

Inquiring minds want to know. Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256

_______________________________________________



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Re: re-why not a real OS?

Ric Moore
On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 22:34 -0500, James Stallings II wrote:

> Hi Ric,
>
>
> Mainly the memory footprint. Certain things under mono take
> significantly more memory than they do under .net. To add insult to
> injury, none of mono's garbage collection (memory
> reclamation/recycling) are compacting garbage collectors, so while the
> process may clean up it's internal memory just fine, the the operating
> system is never able to recover below the memory 'high water mark' of
> the process.
>
>
> This is set to improve with mono 2.8, which does have one such garbage
> collection option, but it is quite new and has yet to be thoroughly
> tested in an OpenSim context. Early testing indicate that it will be
> an improvement in this condition, but other issues do exist (sqlite
> for instance).
>
>
> Do let us know if you have further questions, we're generally full of
> (ahem) answers ;)

>From what I had to do to setup Diva, I decided to go ahead with mysql.
>From what I'm reading it's better for overall optimization and speed.
Mono is currently using about 5% of my CPU with 1 user logged in (me)
and I had forgot it's still running. Wonderland would eat up about 50%
and jump higher than that with it's client. This ain't bad! If a new
version of mono will improve opensim even more, that's great news. It
just blows my mind to be running .exe anything.

So, I haven't optimized my kernel, as a server boxen, just running
plain-jane Ubuntu 10.4 32 bit. If I wanted to create a dedicated opensim
server, I can just dump the overhead of the desktop completely and run
it command line and burn a lean/mean kernel. So, there is plenty of room
for improvement. Have you gone this route yet?? Thanks Ric
 

--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256

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Re: re-why not a real OS?

James Stallings II
Yes I ran my regions locally over DSL on OpenSuse and various debian variants for the first few years I was involved with OSGrid/OpenSim.

Cheers!

On Wed, Oct 13, 2010 at 11:10 PM, Ric Moore <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 22:34 -0500, James Stallings II wrote:
> Hi Ric,
>
>
> Mainly the memory footprint. Certain things under mono take
> significantly more memory than they do under .net. To add insult to
> injury, none of mono's garbage collection (memory
> reclamation/recycling) are compacting garbage collectors, so while the
> process may clean up it's internal memory just fine, the the operating
> system is never able to recover below the memory 'high water mark' of
> the process.
>
>
> This is set to improve with mono 2.8, which does have one such garbage
> collection option, but it is quite new and has yet to be thoroughly
> tested in an OpenSim context. Early testing indicate that it will be
> an improvement in this condition, but other issues do exist (sqlite
> for instance).
>
>
> Do let us know if you have further questions, we're generally full of
> (ahem) answers ;)

>From what I had to do to setup Diva, I decided to go ahead with mysql.
>From what I'm reading it's better for overall optimization and speed.
Mono is currently using about 5% of my CPU with 1 user logged in (me)
and I had forgot it's still running. Wonderland would eat up about 50%
and jump higher than that with it's client. This ain't bad! If a new
version of mono will improve opensim even more, that's great news. It
just blows my mind to be running .exe anything.

So, I haven't optimized my kernel, as a server boxen, just running
plain-jane Ubuntu 10.4 32 bit. If I wanted to create a dedicated opensim
server, I can just dump the overhead of the desktop completely and run
it command line and burn a lean/mean kernel. So, there is plenty of room
for improvement. Have you gone this route yet?? Thanks Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256

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Re: re-why not a real OS?

William Magee
Chris' original post did not ask specifically about the advantages and disadvantages of running OS under Linux and Windows; rather, he asked if he could be "real IT sort of person" without running Linux. If his definition of "real IT sort of person" means what I think he means, then I believe the answer is: Chris, you need to understand the workings of Windows and Linux both, because in "real" IT situations you will be called upon to support both systems.

OpenSim content: I am getting a Windows 7 machine from my school very soon and I will test Hiro's assertion about the superiority of Windows and OS at that time. Meanwhile, thanks for allaying my fears and trepidations. Usually I would much rather run Linux than Windows.

All the best,

Bill



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Re: re-why not a real OS?

Ric Moore
On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 12:44 +0800, William Magee wrote:
> Chris' original post did not ask specifically about the advantages and
> disadvantages of running OS under Linux and Windows; rather, he asked
> if he could be "real IT sort of person" without running Linux. If his
> definition of "real IT sort of person" means what I think he means,
> then I believe the answer is: Chris, you need to understand the
> workings of Windows and Linux both, because in "real" IT situations
> you will be called upon to support both systems.

I was about to reply the very same notion you just presented. Also, when
he gets to 1,000 users on his job, the costs of licenses might get
steep. The boss might say, "Let's migrate this file/print/web server to
Linux." It's good to know "something" of all of the OS's in these tight
times. I KNOW Windows, as a server, costs the big $$. I'm not about
making one of the richest guys in the world richer from my skinny
wallet. Oh heck no. Neither are a lot of companies.

Heck, I still miss CP/M and line numbered basic.

> OpenSim content: I am getting a Windows 7 machine from my school very
> soon and I will test Hiro's assertion about the superiority of Windows
> and OS at that time. Meanwhile, thanks for allaying my fears and
> trepidations. Usually I would much rather run Linux than Windows.

It's a personal choice for me. I've watched MS since the early DOS days,
didn't like the way they conducted themselves and I switched to Linux
back in the 11 disk set install days of Slackware. I missed Minefields
on Win3.1, but Linux had "Hunt the Wumpus", so I was OK. Later, with
Caldera Open Linux, I could install and run 16bit Win3.1 on 32bit Linux
under Wabi. It ran like a scalded ape! Right down to the opening bars of
"Tah Dah!" So, it you could put a Win 7 desktop, that would run Win 7
apps on top of Linux, that would really be something. <grins> Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256

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Re: re-why not a real OS?

Ric Moore
In reply to this post by James Stallings II
On Wed, 2010-10-13 at 23:26 -0500, James Stallings II wrote:
> Yes I ran my regions locally over DSL on OpenSuse and various debian
> variants for the first few years I was involved with OSGrid/OpenSim.

How many users then and what do you use now? Thanx, Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256

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Re: re-why not a real OS?

Jabba Gruppman
In reply to this post by Chris Kroninger
  You've got it - the world is black-and-white:

Linux is good,
Windows is bad.

That's all.

Nope, back to reality: I am working as a freelance IT professional for
years now.
If you have to install a new system for a specific task you'll have to
decide which
operating system will be used. There are typical tasks which will lead
you to a linux/unix/solaris
installation and there are other jobs which will lead to a windows
installation.
Not to forget that there are typical os/x tasks which will lead to an
xserve installation
or something similar (sometimes hardware dependant).

Back to OpenSim: You have the choice. I guess we don't have a 'typical'
OpenSim
installation. Linux or Windows. Your own decision. Both are as good as
the other.

Nothing bad about windows - but usually (if you rent a server) a few bucks
more expensive than a linux box (due to license cost). That's all.
But that's not a question of quality. If you'd use Red Hat Linux you had to
pay license fees, too.

Far more important is bandwidth of internet connection, latency,
size of ram, disk speed, number of cpu cores.


Am 14.10.2010 03:42, schrieb Chris Kroninger:
> Sorry...I have been a lurker for a while, but if I read this right, windows
> isn't considered a real OS?  It's my only choice, so does that make me not a
> real "IT sort of person"?
> 0/13/10 13:34:00
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users

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Re: re-why not a real OS?

Ric Moore
On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 08:31 +0200, jabbaah wrote:
> You've got it - the world is black-and-white:
>
> Linux is good,
> Windows is bad.

I certainly never stated that. I happen to not like Windows as MY OS and
I was very careful to state it was a personal preference. Anyone is free
to use whatever blows up their dress.  

> That's all.
>
> Nope, back to reality: I am working as a freelance IT professional for
> years now.
> If you have to install a new system for a specific task you'll have to
> decide which
> operating system will be used. There are typical tasks which will lead
> you to a linux/unix/solaris
> installation and there are other jobs which will lead to a windows
> installation.
> Not to forget that there are typical os/x tasks which will lead to an
> xserve installation
> or something similar (sometimes hardware dependant).
>
> Back to OpenSim: You have the choice. I guess we don't have a 'typical'
> OpenSim
> installation. Linux or Windows. Your own decision. Both are as good as
> the other.
>
> Nothing bad about windows - but usually (if you rent a server) a few bucks
> more expensive than a linux box (due to license cost). That's all.
> But that's not a question of quality. If you'd use Red Hat Linux you had to
> pay license fees, too.

In Red Hat's case, as I used to work there, you're paying for the
service per license but never for the software. Bob Young hired me back
when, mostly to be the Goat amongst his 20 somethings Thoroughbreds, not
because I was a coder whizbang propeller head. If you don't need the
service, then CentOS can be installed for free. Again, that's bare
knucks, but makes for one tough server.  

> Far more important is bandwidth of internet connection, latency,
> size of ram, disk speed, number of cpu cores.

I most certainly concur with that. I'd give anything to tap the Sprint
fiber optic cable that runs through our front yard, it's a major route
on the net's backbone. When I asked how much to connect, I got an
offhand "several grand a month ...or so". It goes from DC to Blackstone
VA down to Duke and UNC in North Carolina. Sweet. Probably the same line
that MS and Apple are tied into. Ric
 

 
--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256

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Re: re-why not a real OS?

aiaustin
In reply to this post by Chris Kroninger

>From: Andrew <[hidden email]>
>
>will drupal work in windows?
>i have php5 installed


Sure it does Andrew.. and we have moved data bases created under
Windows Drupal across to Linux servers with no problem too.

We use Drupal for the OpenVCE.net web portal (http://openvce.net)
alongside our 3D space sin Second Life and OpenSim  And some of
smm2017's PHP and Drupal modules to integrate with the virtual
worlds.  His d4os (drupal for OpenSim) project is tidying up these aspects.


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Re: re-why not a real OS?

lamont cranston
In reply to this post by Ric Moore
I would point out that I did give a helpful link to the the original question (Drupal does run on Windows, my link was to their page)

My use of the word "real" is because Free Software is Computer *Science* - open experiments with all the evidence available to all researchers.
The opposite is the guild system where knowledge is hoarded and no one outside the guild is allowed to know how things are done. It is unnatural and requires the use of force (legal penalties) to impose. It slows down the advancement of knowledge.
You don't need source code to break an operating system - Microsoft has demonstrated that beyond debate.
You do need source code to fix it.


looking at James comment

1. Pick your application
2. Pick the language that best implements it
3. Pick the best operating system that supports it (natively is to be preferred)
4. pick the hardware that runs that operating system

OpenSim is being tied to Windows due to the use of .net (I agree with James parenthetical statement)
Mono is open, but it is a potential landmine of patent liability, which is why it has been dropped from Fedora/Red Hat.
That loss of userbase/mindshare impacts on the development of Mono.

I'm pleased to hear that the garbage collection is being improved, but by design, Mono is locked into playing catch up against .net
As a result, the roadmap of a critical component belongs to a company that has their own agenda, and it may not support your project
Having an open project dependent on a closed OS introduces a point of failure, outside of the developers control.

Suggesting nefarious scheming on the part of Microsoft is not unreasonable, given the company's history -  from the days of the DR-DOS lawsuit to the theft of code from Plurk and the whole fuss over stolen XML code in their office suite back at the begining of this year. If Mono is an intentional landmine this project would be among the casualties, not even noticed in the larger scheme of things.


On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 3:21 AM, Ric Moore <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 08:31 +0200, jabbaah wrote:
> You've got it - the world is black-and-white:
>
> Linux is good,
> Windows is bad.

I certainly never stated that. I happen to not like Windows as MY OS and
I was very careful to state it was a personal preference. Anyone is free
to use whatever blows up their dress.

> That's all.
>
> Nope, back to reality: I am working as a freelance IT professional for
> years now.
> If you have to install a new system for a specific task you'll have to
> decide which
> operating system will be used. There are typical tasks which will lead
> you to a linux/unix/solaris
> installation and there are other jobs which will lead to a windows
> installation.
> Not to forget that there are typical os/x tasks which will lead to an
> xserve installation
> or something similar (sometimes hardware dependant).
>
> Back to OpenSim: You have the choice. I guess we don't have a 'typical'
> OpenSim
> installation. Linux or Windows. Your own decision. Both are as good as
> the other.
>
> Nothing bad about windows - but usually (if you rent a server) a few bucks
> more expensive than a linux box (due to license cost). That's all.
> But that's not a question of quality. If you'd use Red Hat Linux you had to
> pay license fees, too.

In Red Hat's case, as I used to work there, you're paying for the
service per license but never for the software. Bob Young hired me back
when, mostly to be the Goat amongst his 20 somethings Thoroughbreds, not
because I was a coder whizbang propeller head. If you don't need the
service, then CentOS can be installed for free. Again, that's bare
knucks, but makes for one tough server.

> Far more important is bandwidth of internet connection, latency,
> size of ram, disk speed, number of cpu cores.

I most certainly concur with that. I'd give anything to tap the Sprint
fiber optic cable that runs through our front yard, it's a major route
on the net's backbone. When I asked how much to connect, I got an
offhand "several grand a month ...or so". It goes from DC to Blackstone
VA down to Duke and UNC in North Carolina. Sweet. Probably the same line
that MS and Apple are tied into. Ric



--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256

_______________________________________________




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Re: re-why not a real OS?

Tedd Hansen-2

Hi

 

Religion wars!!! :D

 

1.       Mono is backed by Microsoft: http://techrights.org/2008/08/20/microsoft-suse-coupons/ (I won’t bother searching for more sources for this one)

2.       .Net is open source: http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2008/01/16/net-framework-library-source-code-now-available.aspx

3.       C# and CLI are ECMA standards: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/aa569283.aspx / http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm / http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm
<sarcasm>Oh my God, what is this? IT HAS TO BE FAKE!!!</sarcasm> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/Ecma%20PATENT/ECMA-334%20&%20335/ECMA-335%204th%20Edition%20patent%20statements.pdf

4.       Most/all improvements to .Net the last few years has been additions. OpenSim has no problem waiting 6-12 months for Mono to catch up before using the additions, because none of these new features are critical. So yes, words can be used to argument on this point – but the reality is that it doesn’t matter if Mono is playing catch-up. If anything the developers have time to learn the new technology before implementing them resulting in increased code quality in OpenSim.

 

And then we come to #5:

Unless someone are willing to rewrite OpenSim in another language which suits their taste better I think this conversation thread may have a relatively high probability of being of that popular culture metaphorical dead end that we sometimes hear about.

 

Now for OS: Now I won’t detail the kernels of Win vs Lin, but I can point out that anyone who says that either is better is basically an ignorant fool / troll / at the peak of Dunning-Kruger (pick one or more).

 

Br,

Tedd J

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of lamont cranston
Sent: 14. oktober 2010 10:41
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] re-why not a real OS?

 

I would point out that I did give a helpful link to the the original question (Drupal does run on Windows, my link was to their page)

My use of the word "real" is because Free Software is Computer *Science* - open experiments with all the evidence available to all researchers.
The opposite is the guild system where knowledge is hoarded and no one outside the guild is allowed to know how things are done. It is unnatural and requires the use of force (legal penalties) to impose. It slows down the advancement of knowledge.
You don't need source code to break an operating system - Microsoft has demonstrated that beyond debate.
You do need source code to fix it.


looking at James comment


1. Pick your application

2. Pick the language that best implements it

3. Pick the best operating system that supports it (natively is to be preferred)

4. pick the hardware that runs that operating system

OpenSim is being tied to Windows due to the use of .net (I agree with James parenthetical statement)
Mono is open, but it is a potential landmine of patent liability, which is why it has been dropped from Fedora/Red Hat.
That loss of userbase/mindshare impacts on the development of Mono.

I'm pleased to hear that the garbage collection is being improved, but by design, Mono is locked into playing catch up against .net

As a result, the roadmap of a critical component belongs to a company that has their own agenda, and it may not support your project

Having an open project dependent on a closed OS introduces a point of failure, outside of the developers control.

Suggesting nefarious scheming on the part of Microsoft is not unreasonable, given the company's history -  from the days of the DR-DOS lawsuit to the theft of code from Plurk and the whole fuss over stolen XML code in their office suite back at the begining of this year. If Mono is an intentional landmine this project would be among the casualties, not even noticed in the larger scheme of things.


On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 3:21 AM, Ric Moore <
[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 08:31 +0200, jabbaah wrote:
> You've got it - the world is black-and-white:
>
> Linux is good,
> Windows is bad.

I certainly never stated that. I happen to not like Windows as MY OS and
I was very careful to state it was a personal preference. Anyone is free
to use whatever blows up their dress.


> That's all.
>
> Nope, back to reality: I am working as a freelance IT professional for
> years now.
> If you have to install a new system for a specific task you'll have to
> decide which
> operating system will be used. There are typical tasks which will lead
> you to a linux/unix/solaris
> installation and there are other jobs which will lead to a windows
> installation.
> Not to forget that there are typical os/x tasks which will lead to an
> xserve installation
> or something similar (sometimes hardware dependant).
>
> Back to OpenSim: You have the choice. I guess we don't have a 'typical'
> OpenSim
> installation. Linux or Windows. Your own decision. Both are as good as
> the other.
>
> Nothing bad about windows - but usually (if you rent a server) a few bucks
> more expensive than a linux box (due to license cost). That's all.
> But that's not a question of quality. If you'd use Red Hat Linux you had to
> pay license fees, too.

In Red Hat's case, as I used to work there, you're paying for the

service per license but never for the software. Bob Young hired me back
when, mostly to be the Goat amongst his 20 somethings Thoroughbreds, not
because I was a coder whizbang propeller head. If you don't need the
service, then CentOS can be installed for free. Again, that's bare
knucks, but makes for one tough server.


> Far more important is bandwidth of internet connection, latency,
> size of ram, disk speed, number of cpu cores.

I most certainly concur with that. I'd give anything to tap the Sprint
fiber optic cable that runs through our front yard, it's a major route
on the net's backbone. When I asked how much to connect, I got an
offhand "several grand a month ...or so". It goes from DC to Blackstone
VA down to Duke and UNC in North Carolina. Sweet. Probably the same line
that MS and Apple are tied into. Ric




--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256

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Re: re-why not a real OS?

Jabba Gruppman
In reply to this post by Ric Moore
  Am 14.10.2010 09:21, schrieb Ric Moore:
> On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 08:31 +0200, jabbaah wrote:
>> You've got it - the world is black-and-white:
>>
>> Linux is good,
>> Windows is bad.
> I certainly never stated that. I happen to not like Windows as MY OS and
> I was very careful to state it was a personal preference. Anyone is free
> to use whatever blows up their dress.

Please don't take me wrong. I wrote this as a joke.  ;-)

Regards, Jabba.

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Re: re-why not a real OS?

lamont cranston
In reply to this post by Tedd Hansen-2
I was just clarifying my earlier statements.

1.      
Mono is backed by Microsoft - That is the basic problem.  They have a fiduciary responsibility to stockholders that is in opposition to providing a seamless migration off of their product.
2.       .Net is open source - http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2010/07/richard-stallman-on-net-mono-and-dotgnu
/index.htm  " 'open specification promise' is not something we can rely on" Eben Moglen, Professor of Law, Columbia Law School
I would suggest that a Columbia Law School Professor's opinion has a bit more weight  than a layman's.
3. no need for sarcasm, your link is quite believable,  as it says. "commercially reasonable terms and conditions" which are very specifically not free software.
4. is simply assertions
5. yes, you are correct. OpenSim has gone far down a road that may well be a dead end.
6. "better" is a fuzzy term.  Is a closed source OS better for an application builder? depends on the metric.
 Is one OS better than another? that quickly becomes "specmanship" with each side asserting that a given specification is critical. I'd point to OS on the list of fastest super computers, and you'd point to installed desktops (I am a fan of Microsoft's office suite)


none of this is relevant to my earlier statement -
Free Software is Computer *Science* - open experiments with all the evidence available to all researchers.
The opposite is the guild system where knowledge is hoarded and no one outside the guild is allowed to know how things are done. It is unnatural and requires the use of force (legal penalties) to impose. It slows down the advancement of knowledge.

in conclusion;
if Opensim is to be used for education, then would a closed or open OS be more appropriate?

(appropriate != better)

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 5:37 AM, Tedd Hansen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi

 

Religion wars!!! :D

 

1.       Mono is backed by Microsoft: http://techrights.org/2008/08/20/microsoft-suse-coupons/ (I won’t bother searching for more sources for this one)

2.       .Net is open source: http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2008/01/16/net-framework-library-source-code-now-available.aspx

3.       C# and CLI are ECMA standards: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/aa569283.aspx / http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm / http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm
<sarcasm>Oh my God, what is this? IT HAS TO BE FAKE!!!</sarcasm> http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/Ecma%20PATENT/ECMA-334%20&%20335/ECMA-335%204th%20Edition%20patent%20statements.pdf

4.       Most/all improvements to .Net the last few years has been additions. OpenSim has no problem waiting 6-12 months for Mono to catch up before using the additions, because none of these new features are critical. So yes, words can be used to argument on this point – but the reality is that it doesn’t matter if Mono is playing catch-up. If anything the developers have time to learn the new technology before implementing them resulting in increased code quality in OpenSim.

 

And then we come to #5:

Unless someone are willing to rewrite OpenSim in another language which suits their taste better I think this conversation thread may have a relatively high probability of being of that popular culture metaphorical dead end that we sometimes hear about.

 

Now for OS: Now I won’t detail the kernels of Win vs Lin, but I can point out that anyone who says that either is better is basically an ignorant fool / troll / at the peak of Dunning-Kruger (pick one or more).

 

Br,

Tedd J

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of lamont cranston
Sent: 14. oktober 2010 10:41
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] re-why not a real OS?

 

I would point out that I did give a helpful link to the the original question (Drupal does run on Windows, my link was to their page)

My use of the word "real" is because Free Software is Computer *Science* - open experiments with all the evidence available to all researchers.
The opposite is the guild system where knowledge is hoarded and no one outside the guild is allowed to know how things are done. It is unnatural and requires the use of force (legal penalties) to impose. It slows down the advancement of knowledge.
You don't need source code to break an operating system - Microsoft has demonstrated that beyond debate.
You do need source code to fix it.


looking at James comment


1. Pick your application

2. Pick the language that best implements it

3. Pick the best operating system that supports it (natively is to be preferred)

4. pick the hardware that runs that operating system

OpenSim is being tied to Windows due to the use of .net (I agree with James parenthetical statement)
Mono is open, but it is a potential landmine of patent liability, which is why it has been dropped from Fedora/Red Hat.
That loss of userbase/mindshare impacts on the development of Mono.

I'm pleased to hear that the garbage collection is being improved, but by design, Mono is locked into playing catch up against .net

As a result, the roadmap of a critical component belongs to a company that has their own agenda, and it may not support your project

Having an open project dependent on a closed OS introduces a point of failure, outside of the developers control.

Suggesting nefarious scheming on the part of Microsoft is not unreasonable, given the company's history -  from the days of the DR-DOS lawsuit to the theft of code from Plurk and the whole fuss over stolen XML code in their office suite back at the begining of this year. If Mono is an intentional landmine this project would be among the casualties, not even noticed in the larger scheme of things.


On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 3:21 AM, Ric Moore <
[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 08:31 +0200, jabbaah wrote:
> You've got it - the world is black-and-white:
>
> Linux is good,
> Windows is bad.

I certainly never stated that. I happen to not like Windows as MY OS and
I was very careful to state it was a personal preference. Anyone is free
to use whatever blows up their dress.


> That's all.
>
> Nope, back to reality: I am working as a freelance IT professional for
> years now.
> If you have to install a new system for a specific task you'll have to
> decide which
> operating system will be used. There are typical tasks which will lead
> you to a linux/unix/solaris
> installation and there are other jobs which will lead to a windows
> installation.
> Not to forget that there are typical os/x tasks which will lead to an
> xserve installation
> or something similar (sometimes hardware dependant).
>
> Back to OpenSim: You have the choice. I guess we don't have a 'typical'
> OpenSim
> installation. Linux or Windows. Your own decision. Both are as good as
> the other.
>
> Nothing bad about windows - but usually (if you rent a server) a few bucks
> more expensive than a linux box (due to license cost). That's all.
> But that's not a question of quality. If you'd use Red Hat Linux you had to
> pay license fees, too.

In Red Hat's case, as I used to work there, you're paying for the
service per license but never for the software. Bob Young hired me back
when, mostly to be the Goat amongst his 20 somethings Thoroughbreds, not
because I was a coder whizbang propeller head. If you don't need the
service, then CentOS can be installed for free. Again, that's bare
knucks, but makes for one tough server.


> Far more important is bandwidth of internet connection, latency,
> size of ram, disk speed, number of cpu cores.

I most certainly concur with that. I'd give anything to tap the Sprint
fiber optic cable that runs through our front yard, it's a major route
on the net's backbone. When I asked how much to connect, I got an
offhand "several grand a month ...or so". It goes from DC to Blackstone
VA down to Duke and UNC in North Carolina. Sweet. Probably the same line
that MS and Apple are tied into. Ric




--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256

_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: re-why not a real OS?

Tedd Hansen-2

Edit: Ok, I’m in the funny corner today. No serious punt intended (really!). Just finished a big delivery; happy - happy - happy. J

 

*rants some response including paranoia, far out, twisted world view, lack of logical reasoning, feet not planted and border lining trolling* *then hides*

 

IF this was all the information then would any of this *really* be an issue?

I mean, does anyone honestly believe that Microsoft will pull .Net off the market suddenly? Or is this, as usual, the ranting of *nix-trolls (actually: Linux-trolls)?

If they did, would this affect OpenSim so much that everyone dies?

 

Can someone fork Mono?

Can someone write a C#->PERL converter?

Can PERL contain the same patented code as in .Net?

Can OpenSim be run on Windows?

Will the old versions of stuff still run?

If you can answer yes to one of these questions you may be suffering from reality.

 

Oh, and that one doc contains a link to this: http://www.microsoft.com/interop/cp/default.mspx

Dunno if that makes the professor happy?

 

Br,

Tedd

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of lamont cranston
Sent: 14. oktober 2010 12:43
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] re-why not a real OS?

 

I was just clarifying my earlier statements.

1.
       Mono is backed by Microsoft - That is the basic problem.  They have a fiduciary responsibility to stockholders that is in opposition to providing a seamless migration off of their product.
2.
       .Net is open source - http://blogs.computerworlduk.com/open-enterprise/2010/07/richard-stallman-on-net-mono-and-dotgnu
/index.htm  " 'open specification promise' is not something we can rely on"
Eben Moglen, Professor of Law, Columbia Law School
I would suggest that a Columbia Law School Professor's opinion has a bit more weight  than a layman's.
3. no need for sarcasm, your link is quite believable,  as it says. "commercially reasonable terms and conditions" which are very specifically not free software.
4. is simply assertions
5. yes, you are correct. OpenSim has gone far down a road that may well be a dead end.
6. "better" is a fuzzy term.  Is a closed source OS better for an application builder? depends on the metric.
 Is one OS better than another? that quickly becomes "specmanship" with each side asserting that a given specification is critical. I'd point to OS on the list of fastest super computers, and you'd point to installed desktops (I am a fan of Microsoft's office suite)


none of this is relevant to my earlier statement -
Free Software is Computer *Science* - open experiments with all the evidence available to all researchers.
The opposite is the guild system where knowledge is hoarded and no one outside the guild is allowed to know how things are done. It is unnatural and requires the use of force (legal penalties) to impose. It slows down the advancement of knowledge.
in conclusion;
if Opensim is to be used for education, then would a closed or open OS be more appropriate?

(appropriate != better)

On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 5:37 AM, Tedd Hansen <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi

 

Religion wars!!! :D

 

1.       Mono is backed by Microsoft: http://techrights.org/2008/08/20/microsoft-suse-coupons/ (I won’t bother searching for more sources for this one)

2.       .Net is open source: http://weblogs.asp.net/scottgu/archive/2008/01/16/net-framework-library-source-code-now-available.aspx

3.       C# and CLI are ECMA standards: http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/netframework/aa569283.aspx / http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-334.htm / http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/standards/Ecma-335.htm
<sarcasm>Oh my God, what is this? IT HAS TO BE FAKE!!!</sarcasm>
http://www.ecma-international.org/publications/files/ECMA-ST/Ecma%20PATENT/ECMA-334%20&%20335/ECMA-335%204th%20Edition%20patent%20statements.pdf

4.       Most/all improvements to .Net the last few years has been additions. OpenSim has no problem waiting 6-12 months for Mono to catch up before using the additions, because none of these new features are critical. So yes, words can be used to argument on this point – but the reality is that it doesn’t matter if Mono is playing catch-up. If anything the developers have time to learn the new technology before implementing them resulting in increased code quality in OpenSim.

 

And then we come to #5:

Unless someone are willing to rewrite OpenSim in another language which suits their taste better I think this conversation thread may have a relatively high probability of being of that popular culture metaphorical dead end that we sometimes hear about.

 

Now for OS: Now I won’t detail the kernels of Win vs Lin, but I can point out that anyone who says that either is better is basically an ignorant fool / troll / at the peak of Dunning-Kruger (pick one or more).

 

Br,

Tedd J

 

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of lamont cranston
Sent: 14. oktober 2010 10:41
To:
[hidden email]
Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] re-why not a real OS?

 

I would point out that I did give a helpful link to the the original question (Drupal does run on Windows, my link was to their page)

My use of the word "real" is because Free Software is Computer *Science* - open experiments with all the evidence available to all researchers.
The opposite is the guild system where knowledge is hoarded and no one outside the guild is allowed to know how things are done. It is unnatural and requires the use of force (legal penalties) to impose. It slows down the advancement of knowledge.
You don't need source code to break an operating system - Microsoft has demonstrated that beyond debate.
You do need source code to fix it.


looking at James comment


1. Pick your application

2. Pick the language that best implements it

3. Pick the best operating system that supports it (natively is to be preferred)

4. pick the hardware that runs that operating system

OpenSim is being tied to Windows due to the use of .net (I agree with James parenthetical statement)
Mono is open, but it is a potential landmine of patent liability, which is why it has been dropped from Fedora/Red Hat.
That loss of userbase/mindshare impacts on the development of Mono.

I'm pleased to hear that the garbage collection is being improved, but by design, Mono is locked into playing catch up against .net

As a result, the roadmap of a critical component belongs to a company that has their own agenda, and it may not support your project

Having an open project dependent on a closed OS introduces a point of failure, outside of the developers control.

Suggesting nefarious scheming on the part of Microsoft is not unreasonable, given the company's history -  from the days of the DR-DOS lawsuit to the theft of code from Plurk and the whole fuss over stolen XML code in their office suite back at the begining of this year. If Mono is an intentional landmine this project would be among the casualties, not even noticed in the larger scheme of things.


On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 3:21 AM, Ric Moore <
[hidden email]> wrote:

On Thu, 2010-10-14 at 08:31 +0200, jabbaah wrote:
> You've got it - the world is black-and-white:
>
> Linux is good,
> Windows is bad.

I certainly never stated that. I happen to not like Windows as MY OS and
I was very careful to state it was a personal preference. Anyone is free
to use whatever blows up their dress.


> That's all.
>
> Nope, back to reality: I am working as a freelance IT professional for
> years now.
> If you have to install a new system for a specific task you'll have to
> decide which
> operating system will be used. There are typical tasks which will lead
> you to a linux/unix/solaris
> installation and there are other jobs which will lead to a windows
> installation.
> Not to forget that there are typical os/x tasks which will lead to an
> xserve installation
> or something similar (sometimes hardware dependant).
>
> Back to OpenSim: You have the choice. I guess we don't have a 'typical'
> OpenSim
> installation. Linux or Windows. Your own decision. Both are as good as
> the other.
>
> Nothing bad about windows - but usually (if you rent a server) a few bucks
> more expensive than a linux box (due to license cost). That's all.
> But that's not a question of quality. If you'd use Red Hat Linux you had to
> pay license fees, too.

In Red Hat's case, as I used to work there, you're paying for the

service per license but never for the software. Bob Young hired me back
when, mostly to be the Goat amongst his 20 somethings Thoroughbreds, not
because I was a coder whizbang propeller head. If you don't need the
service, then CentOS can be installed for free. Again, that's bare
knucks, but makes for one tough server.


> Far more important is bandwidth of internet connection, latency,
> size of ram, disk speed, number of cpu cores.

I most certainly concur with that. I'd give anything to tap the Sprint
fiber optic cable that runs through our front yard, it's a major route
on the net's backbone. When I asked how much to connect, I got an
offhand "several grand a month ...or so". It goes from DC to Blackstone
VA down to Duke and UNC in North Carolina. Sweet. Probably the same line
that MS and Apple are tied into. Ric




--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
Linux user# 44256

_______________________________________________




_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users




--
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")


_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users