the concept of "visitor"

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the concept of "visitor"

Paul Fishwick
I would like to open up one of our worlds to the general public by
allowing people
to log in as visitors. This is related to the "anonymous login" and has
been discussed
in various forms, but here is the concept - not sure if anything exists
yet in trunk to
support this:

1. A user logs in using whatever name they want. If authentication is
turned off, this is
   no problem. However, what would be ideal is that when the user logs
off, any trace
   of them is removed from the database-- they do not persist.

2. When the user logs in, they have access to the Library part of the
inventory, but are
    unable to load any assets to the server, thus they would have
nothing under "My Inventory"
    or be able to copy items from the Library or the world into My
Inventory. The Library
    would contain all necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
that they require
    in the space).

3. The user cannot build on the island but can run scripts and navigate
performing full
    interaction.

#1 is not a huge issue since I would imagine that the incremental space
allocation for
users just means additional rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
take up too much
room. #2 is a bigger problem - visitors should not be taxing the asset
server. #3
can be handled by unchecking both boxes next to Create Objects in About
Land->Options.

Are either #1 or #2 possible? They would seem to be a prerequisite for
something approaching
basic web page services: people come in, visit, and exit while leaving a
minimal trace.
Builders on the other hand, have special login names that give them the
capability to build
and load assets (possible with groups?).

-p

--
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Professor
University of Florida
CISE Department, CSE 301
Gainesville, FL 32611
Email: [hidden email]
Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick

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Re: the concept of "visitor"

andrew johnson-3
sounds good - its useful for just wanting to check the things before joining - simllar to roblox which uses visitor that shows avatar a demo ones

> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 10:49:20 -0500
> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [Opensim-users] the concept of "visitor"
>
> I would like to open up one of our worlds to the general public by
> allowing people
> to log in as visitors. This is related to the "anonymous login" and has
> been discussed
> in various forms, but here is the concept - not sure if anything exists
> yet in trunk to
> support this:
>
> 1. A user logs in using whatever name they want. If authentication is
> turned off, this is
> no problem. However, what would be ideal is that when the user logs
> off, any trace
> of them is removed from the database-- they do not persist.
>
> 2. When the user logs in, they have access to the Library part of the
> inventory, but are
> unable to load any assets to the server, thus they would have
> nothing under "My Inventory"
> or be able to copy items from the Library or the world into My
> Inventory. The Library
> would contain all necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
> that they require
> in the space).
>
> 3. The user cannot build on the island but can run scripts and navigate
> performing full
> interaction.
>
> #1 is not a huge issue since I would imagine that the incremental space
> allocation for
> users just means additional rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
> take up too much
> room. #2 is a bigger problem - visitors should not be taxing the asset
> server. #3
> can be handled by unchecking both boxes next to Create Objects in About
> Land->Options.
>
> Are either #1 or #2 possible? They would seem to be a prerequisite for
> something approaching
> basic web page services: people come in, visit, and exit while leaving a
> minimal trace.
> Builders on the other hand, have special login names that give them the
> capability to build
> and load assets (possible with groups?).
>
> -p
>
> --
> Paul Fishwick, PhD
> Professor
> University of Florida
> CISE Department, CSE 301
> Gainesville, FL 32611
> Email: [hidden email]
> Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: the concept of "visitor"

John Mieske
In reply to this post by Paul Fishwick
why not add a PHP file that does this all for you ?  Example : They click a button that says Visitor John. It gives them a temp user and PW with full instructions to their e-mail. They log in. Now the timer on the PHP can delete the temp user and PW after 24 hours. You can even have a php that refreshes every hour that checks the database and removes the temp users that has no need to be there. Make sure you create a seperate database for the time limit so that it wont have to be added to the MAIN SQL database. If the "extra" SQL databse has the name and user's time stamp ready for deletion then it removes it from the MAIN database for the name and PW and then goes back to the temp and removes it there too. So two databases with name and PW to show which is fake.

This can be done in many ways. Just a thought.

John Mieske / Sonya Penucca

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Paul Fishwick <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would like to open up one of our worlds to the general public by
allowing people
to log in as visitors. This is related to the "anonymous login" and has
been discussed
in various forms, but here is the concept - not sure if anything exists
yet in trunk to
support this:

1. A user logs in using whatever name they want. If authentication is
turned off, this is
  no problem. However, what would be ideal is that when the user logs
off, any trace
  of them is removed from the database-- they do not persist.

2. When the user logs in, they have access to the Library part of the
inventory, but are
   unable to load any assets to the server, thus they would have
nothing under "My Inventory"
   or be able to copy items from the Library or the world into My
Inventory. The Library
   would contain all necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
that they require
   in the space).

3. The user cannot build on the island but can run scripts and navigate
performing full
   interaction.

#1 is not a huge issue since I would imagine that the incremental space
allocation for
users just means additional rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
take up too much
room. #2 is a bigger problem - visitors should not be taxing the asset
server. #3
can be handled by unchecking both boxes next to Create Objects in About
Land->Options.

Are either #1 or #2 possible? They would seem to be a prerequisite for
something approaching
basic web page services: people come in, visit, and exit while leaving a
minimal trace.
Builders on the other hand, have special login names that give them the
capability to build
and load assets (possible with groups?).

-p

--
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Professor
University of Florida
CISE Department, CSE 301
Gainesville, FL 32611
Email: [hidden email]
Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users


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Re: the concept of "visitor"

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by Paul Fishwick
Well as a grid owner running a public grid i have a few thughts to that.
 The 1st would be that frontends/web interface's have a big part as thats how one would make an accunt anyway. Its not hard to have a exp. date and offers 'should thay wish' to be a full menber. That matters to the user that likes what thay see and donot have to re-enter it all over again.

The next part is what about the kruft? The junk left in the db. While that could add up IF you had a boat load of looky loo's but actualy its verry small. Yes it will add more to the assets db but given the exp. date it would be akin to tossing a pebble into the grand canyon. I say that because to import anything to a scale that it matters, takes time. The acount expires unless the user wants to stay.

A good bit of this is mostly done in the frontend interface not so mutch core. It has to be the way it is so that 3rd party minds can work on what you want.

Mostly my thought is the kuft is so low and purging it risky.. ill take the kruft

Now IF i wanted to do that as you said so well. Assuming alot of 'visitors'. I would send there data to a temp. media. a sub data base. Unless the user/visitor desides to stay , the front would just move the temp db in the main one.

Part of the problem is that a 'Vistor' is intrested to know what a 3d world is, how it works what can it do. Crippling any part of it for them is counter to the point.

End thought is the KRUFT is of no real problem. Drop in the pool

Paul Fishwick wrote
I would like to open up one of our worlds to the general public by
allowing people
to log in as visitors. This is related to the "anonymous login" and has
been discussed
in various forms, but here is the concept - not sure if anything exists
yet in trunk to
support this:

1. A user logs in using whatever name they want. If authentication is
turned off, this is
   no problem. However, what would be ideal is that when the user logs
off, any trace
   of them is removed from the database-- they do not persist.

2. When the user logs in, they have access to the Library part of the
inventory, but are
    unable to load any assets to the server, thus they would have
nothing under "My Inventory"
    or be able to copy items from the Library or the world into My
Inventory. The Library
    would contain all necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
that they require
    in the space).

3. The user cannot build on the island but can run scripts and navigate
performing full
    interaction.

#1 is not a huge issue since I would imagine that the incremental space
allocation for
users just means additional rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
take up too much
room. #2 is a bigger problem - visitors should not be taxing the asset
server. #3
can be handled by unchecking both boxes next to Create Objects in About
Land->Options.

Are either #1 or #2 possible? They would seem to be a prerequisite for
something approaching
basic web page services: people come in, visit, and exit while leaving a
minimal trace.
Builders on the other hand, have special login names that give them the
capability to build
and load assets (possible with groups?).

-p

--
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Professor
University of Florida
CISE Department, CSE 301
Gainesville, FL 32611
Email: fishwick@cise.ufl.edu
Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick

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Re: the concept of "visitor"

John Mieske
That's why I mentioned to create a secondary database that stores the USER and their DATE. This way the original database doesn't need to be updated. It only needs to hold the normal info of the user. The temp database would check if that date is within the 24 hour period. if they like it they just click ONE button the website and poof the info in the second database would be gone and their USER and PW never gets deleted.. nothing more to do. Its very very simple. No extra clutter.


John

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 3:46 PM, Master_Mirage <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well as a grid owner running a public grid i have a few thughts to that.
 The 1st would be that frontends/web interface's have a big part as thats
how one would make an accunt anyway. Its not hard to have a exp. date and
offers 'should thay wish' to be a full menber. That matters to the user that
likes what thay see and donot have to re-enter it all over again.

The next part is what about the kruft? The junk left in the db. While that
could add up IF you had a boat load of looky loo's but actualy its verry
small. Yes it will add more to the assets db but given the exp. date it
would be akin to tossing a pebble into the grand canyon. I say that because
to import anything to a scale that it matters, takes time. The acount
expires unless the user wants to stay.

A good bit of this is mostly done in the frontend interface not so mutch
core. It has to be the way it is so that 3rd party minds can work on what
you want.

Mostly my thought is the kuft is so low and purging it risky.. ill take the
kruft

Now IF i wanted to do that as you said so well. Assuming alot of 'visitors'.
I would send there data to a temp. media. a sub data base. Unless the
user/visitor desides to stay , the front would just move the temp db in the
main one.

Part of the problem is that a 'Vistor' is intrested to know what a 3d world
is, how it works what can it do. Crippling any part of it for them is
counter to the point.

End thought is the KRUFT is of no real problem. Drop in the pool


Paul Fishwick wrote:
>
> I would like to open up one of our worlds to the general public by
> allowing people
> to log in as visitors. This is related to the "anonymous login" and has
> been discussed
> in various forms, but here is the concept - not sure if anything exists
> yet in trunk to
> support this:
>
> 1. A user logs in using whatever name they want. If authentication is
> turned off, this is
>    no problem. However, what would be ideal is that when the user logs
> off, any trace
>    of them is removed from the database-- they do not persist.
>
> 2. When the user logs in, they have access to the Library part of the
> inventory, but are
>     unable to load any assets to the server, thus they would have
> nothing under "My Inventory"
>     or be able to copy items from the Library or the world into My
> Inventory. The Library
>     would contain all necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
> that they require
>     in the space).
>
> 3. The user cannot build on the island but can run scripts and navigate
> performing full
>     interaction.
>
> #1 is not a huge issue since I would imagine that the incremental space
> allocation for
> users just means additional rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
> take up too much
> room. #2 is a bigger problem - visitors should not be taxing the asset
> server. #3
> can be handled by unchecking both boxes next to Create Objects in About
> Land->Options.
>
> Are either #1 or #2 possible? They would seem to be a prerequisite for
> something approaching
> basic web page services: people come in, visit, and exit while leaving a
> minimal trace.
> Builders on the other hand, have special login names that give them the
> capability to build
> and load assets (possible with groups?).
>
> -p
>
> --
> Paul Fishwick, PhD
> Professor
> University of Florida
> CISE Department, CSE 301
> Gainesville, FL 32611
> Email: [hidden email]
> Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/the-concept-of-visitor-tp4501558p4503535.html
Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
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--
John Mieske / Sonya Pencuca
http://johnmieske.org
Space Grid Station
"Religion - The art of killing people to prove who's imaginary friend is better."

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Re: the concept of "visitor"

Paul Fishwick
In reply to this post by John Mieske
Good suggestions. I have someone working on an opensim SQL toolkit and
it probably could
be adapted in that way. The toolkit will also include the option to do a
db cleaning, deleting
users, deleting regions, showing specific stats, etc.

The separate db for the timelimit is an interesting idea  -- that would
certainly clean the slate,
say, every 24 hours.

@Master_Mirage: the kruft ... it isn't clear to me how much there is yet
but I do know that our
database has grown at a significant rate that does not appear to be
commensurate with the added
assets and prims that we have put into it. Still needs some analysis to
know exactly what is going
on. Once the SQL tool has been developed, we should have results of this
analysis.

p

John Mieske wrote:

> why not add a PHP file that does this all for you ?  Example : They
> click a button that says Visitor John. It gives them a temp user and
> PW with full instructions to their e-mail. They log in. Now the timer
> on the PHP can delete the temp user and PW after 24 hours. You can
> even have a php that refreshes every hour that checks the database and
> removes the temp users that has no need to be there. Make sure you
> create a seperate database for the time limit so that it wont have to
> be added to the MAIN SQL database. If the "extra" SQL databse has the
> name and user's time stamp ready for deletion then it removes it from
> the MAIN database for the name and PW and then goes back to the temp
> and removes it there too. So two databases with name and PW to show
> which is fake.
>
> This can be done in many ways. Just a thought.
>
> John Mieske / Sonya Penucca
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Paul Fishwick <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I would like to open up one of our worlds to the general public by
>     allowing people
>     to log in as visitors. This is related to the "anonymous login"
>     and has
>     been discussed
>     in various forms, but here is the concept - not sure if anything
>     exists
>     yet in trunk to
>     support this:
>
>     1. A user logs in using whatever name they want. If authentication is
>     turned off, this is
>       no problem. However, what would be ideal is that when the user logs
>     off, any trace
>       of them is removed from the database-- they do not persist.
>
>     2. When the user logs in, they have access to the Library part of the
>     inventory, but are
>        unable to load any assets to the server, thus they would have
>     nothing under "My Inventory"
>        or be able to copy items from the Library or the world into My
>     Inventory. The Library
>        would contain all necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
>     that they require
>        in the space).
>
>     3. The user cannot build on the island but can run scripts and
>     navigate
>     performing full
>        interaction.
>
>     #1 is not a huge issue since I would imagine that the incremental
>     space
>     allocation for
>     users just means additional rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
>     take up too much
>     room. #2 is a bigger problem - visitors should not be taxing the asset
>     server. #3
>     can be handled by unchecking both boxes next to Create Objects in
>     About
>     Land->Options.
>
>     Are either #1 or #2 possible? They would seem to be a prerequisite for
>     something approaching
>     basic web page services: people come in, visit, and exit while
>     leaving a
>     minimal trace.
>     Builders on the other hand, have special login names that give
>     them the
>     capability to build
>     and load assets (possible with groups?).
>
>     -p
>
>     --
>     Paul Fishwick, PhD
>     Professor
>     University of Florida
>     CISE Department, CSE 301
>     Gainesville, FL 32611
>     Email: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>     <http://www.cise.ufl.edu/%7Efishwick>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Opensim-users mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  


--
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Professor
University of Florida
CISE Department, CSE 301
Gainesville, FL 32611
Email: [hidden email]
Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick

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Re: the concept of "visitor"

John Mieske
Well I have some experience with SQL. The one thing I know is that it wont change anything if you just add info and delete info. It cleans itself if your using MySQL for OpenSim. Not sure on the other databases. The reason the OpenSim database grows IS because of the assets. Keep in mind, there is a HUGE installment of all assets once a user is created. HOWEVER with that point in mind, when a user deletes their account, it deletes that and all its previous assets. We tested that and it works. So to create a database that is seperate that holds the USER PW and DATE boolian settings would then check once an hour to keep the database clean.

EXAMPLE : OpenSim.SQL holds the REAL info. TempVisitor.SQL holds the User NAME and its time frame. Only those three ( first and last name count as two fields ) fields.

Now in the INI of OpenSim you already have an option to execute a script. That script could call a PHP file that could then check the database and remove the unwanted names. If it finds a name, then BOTH the SQL files will be updated. The TempVisitors will delete the USER and its info and the OpenSim SQL will delete the user and all its info. Since most sites do not have that many "visitors" logging in all at once this is not as much bandwidth as one might originally think. I at first thought it would be, but I am glad someone else thought about this too. I have been wanting to discuss this very topic.


On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 3:56 PM, Paul Fishwick <[hidden email]> wrote:
Good suggestions. I have someone working on an opensim SQL toolkit and
it probably could
be adapted in that way. The toolkit will also include the option to do a
db cleaning, deleting
users, deleting regions, showing specific stats, etc.

The separate db for the timelimit is an interesting idea  -- that would
certainly clean the slate,
say, every 24 hours.

@Master_Mirage: the kruft ... it isn't clear to me how much there is yet
but I do know that our
database has grown at a significant rate that does not appear to be
commensurate with the added
assets and prims that we have put into it. Still needs some analysis to
know exactly what is going
on. Once the SQL tool has been developed, we should have results of this
analysis.

p

John Mieske wrote:
> why not add a PHP file that does this all for you ?  Example : They
> click a button that says Visitor John. It gives them a temp user and
> PW with full instructions to their e-mail. They log in. Now the timer
> on the PHP can delete the temp user and PW after 24 hours. You can
> even have a php that refreshes every hour that checks the database and
> removes the temp users that has no need to be there. Make sure you
> create a seperate database for the time limit so that it wont have to
> be added to the MAIN SQL database. If the "extra" SQL databse has the
> name and user's time stamp ready for deletion then it removes it from
> the MAIN database for the name and PW and then goes back to the temp
> and removes it there too. So two databases with name and PW to show
> which is fake.
>
> This can be done in many ways. Just a thought.
>
> John Mieske / Sonya Penucca
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Paul Fishwick <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I would like to open up one of our worlds to the general public by
>     allowing people
>     to log in as visitors. This is related to the "anonymous login"
>     and has
>     been discussed
>     in various forms, but here is the concept - not sure if anything
>     exists
>     yet in trunk to
>     support this:
>
>     1. A user logs in using whatever name they want. If authentication is
>     turned off, this is
>       no problem. However, what would be ideal is that when the user logs
>     off, any trace
>       of them is removed from the database-- they do not persist.
>
>     2. When the user logs in, they have access to the Library part of the
>     inventory, but are
>        unable to load any assets to the server, thus they would have
>     nothing under "My Inventory"
>        or be able to copy items from the Library or the world into My
>     Inventory. The Library
>        would contain all necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
>     that they require
>        in the space).
>
>     3. The user cannot build on the island but can run scripts and
>     navigate
>     performing full
>        interaction.
>
>     #1 is not a huge issue since I would imagine that the incremental
>     space
>     allocation for
>     users just means additional rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
>     take up too much
>     room. #2 is a bigger problem - visitors should not be taxing the asset
>     server. #3
>     can be handled by unchecking both boxes next to Create Objects in
>     About
>     Land->Options.
>
>     Are either #1 or #2 possible? They would seem to be a prerequisite for
>     something approaching
>     basic web page services: people come in, visit, and exit while
>     leaving a
>     minimal trace.
>     Builders on the other hand, have special login names that give
>     them the
>     capability to build
>     and load assets (possible with groups?).
>
>     -p
>
>     --
>     Paul Fishwick, PhD
>     Professor
>     University of Florida
>     CISE Department, CSE 301
>     Gainesville, FL 32611
>     Email: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     <http://www.cise.ufl.edu/%7Efishwick>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Opensim-users mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>


--
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Professor
University of Florida
CISE Department, CSE 301
Gainesville, FL 32611
Email: [hidden email]
Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick

_______________________________________________
Opensim-users mailing list
[hidden email]
https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



--
John Mieske / Sonya Pencuca
http://johnmieske.org
Space Grid Station
"Religion - The art of killing people to prove who's imaginary friend is better."

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Re: the concept of "visitor"

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by John Mieske
correct! and in the grand thought of this. Not everthing is CORE.. thats the point and the cool part. CORE Opensimulator is that. it is flexable and complex. Id bet my last dime on kick ass stuff ppl will make from the core!. Its made to be that and as complex as it is. It has tobe flexable to matter at all :)
John Mieske wrote
why not add a PHP file that does this all for you ?  Example : They click a
button that says Visitor John. It gives them a temp user and PW with full
instructions to their e-mail. They log in. Now the timer on the PHP can
delete the temp user and PW after 24 hours. You can even have a php that
refreshes every hour that checks the database and removes the temp users
that has no need to be there. Make sure you create a seperate database for
the time limit so that it wont have to be added to the MAIN SQL database. If
the "extra" SQL databse has the name and user's time stamp ready for
deletion then it removes it from the MAIN database for the name and PW and
then goes back to the temp and removes it there too. So two databases with
name and PW to show which is fake.

This can be done in many ways. Just a thought.

John Mieske / Sonya Penucca

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Paul Fishwick <fishwick@cise.ufl.edu>wrote:

> I would like to open up one of our worlds to the general public by
> allowing people
> to log in as visitors. This is related to the "anonymous login" and has
> been discussed
> in various forms, but here is the concept - not sure if anything exists
> yet in trunk to
> support this:
>
> 1. A user logs in using whatever name they want. If authentication is
> turned off, this is
>   no problem. However, what would be ideal is that when the user logs
> off, any trace
>   of them is removed from the database-- they do not persist.
>
> 2. When the user logs in, they have access to the Library part of the
> inventory, but are
>    unable to load any assets to the server, thus they would have
> nothing under "My Inventory"
>    or be able to copy items from the Library or the world into My
> Inventory. The Library
>    would contain all necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
> that they require
>    in the space).
>
> 3. The user cannot build on the island but can run scripts and navigate
> performing full
>    interaction.
>
> #1 is not a huge issue since I would imagine that the incremental space
> allocation for
> users just means additional rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
> take up too much
> room. #2 is a bigger problem - visitors should not be taxing the asset
> server. #3
> can be handled by unchecking both boxes next to Create Objects in About
> Land->Options.
>
> Are either #1 or #2 possible? They would seem to be a prerequisite for
> something approaching
> basic web page services: people come in, visit, and exit while leaving a
> minimal trace.
> Builders on the other hand, have special login names that give them the
> capability to build
> and load assets (possible with groups?).
>
> -p
>
> --
> Paul Fishwick, PhD
> Professor
> University of Florida
> CISE Department, CSE 301
> Gainesville, FL 32611
> Email: fishwick@cise.ufl.edu
> Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>

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Re: the concept of "visitor"

John Mieske
I see what your saying Mirage. In the future if they made it where the Sim could run a script that would be good. but for now, you can use the method I mentioned.  I hope this does push openSim forward. This would be a big step in the right direction.


On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Master_Mirage <[hidden email]> wrote:

correct! and in the grand thought of this. Not everthing is CORE.. thats the
point and the cool part. CORE Opensimulator is that. it is flexable and
complex. Id bet my last dime on kick ass stuff ppl will make from the core!.
Its made to be that and as complex as it is. It has tobe flexable to matter
at all :)

John Mieske wrote:
>
> why not add a PHP file that does this all for you ?  Example : They click
> a
> button that says Visitor John. It gives them a temp user and PW with full
> instructions to their e-mail. They log in. Now the timer on the PHP can
> delete the temp user and PW after 24 hours. You can even have a php that
> refreshes every hour that checks the database and removes the temp users
> that has no need to be there. Make sure you create a seperate database for
> the time limit so that it wont have to be added to the MAIN SQL database.
> If
> the "extra" SQL databse has the name and user's time stamp ready for
> deletion then it removes it from the MAIN database for the name and PW and
> then goes back to the temp and removes it there too. So two databases with
> name and PW to show which is fake.
>
> This can be done in many ways. Just a thought.
>
> John Mieske / Sonya Penucca
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Paul Fishwick
> <[hidden email]>wrote:
>
>> I would like to open up one of our worlds to the general public by
>> allowing people
>> to log in as visitors. This is related to the "anonymous login" and has
>> been discussed
>> in various forms, but here is the concept - not sure if anything exists
>> yet in trunk to
>> support this:
>>
>> 1. A user logs in using whatever name they want. If authentication is
>> turned off, this is
>>   no problem. However, what would be ideal is that when the user logs
>> off, any trace
>>   of them is removed from the database-- they do not persist.
>>
>> 2. When the user logs in, they have access to the Library part of the
>> inventory, but are
>>    unable to load any assets to the server, thus they would have
>> nothing under "My Inventory"
>>    or be able to copy items from the Library or the world into My
>> Inventory. The Library
>>    would contain all necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
>> that they require
>>    in the space).
>>
>> 3. The user cannot build on the island but can run scripts and navigate
>> performing full
>>    interaction.
>>
>> #1 is not a huge issue since I would imagine that the incremental space
>> allocation for
>> users just means additional rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
>> take up too much
>> room. #2 is a bigger problem - visitors should not be taxing the asset
>> server. #3
>> can be handled by unchecking both boxes next to Create Objects in About
>> Land->Options.
>>
>> Are either #1 or #2 possible? They would seem to be a prerequisite for
>> something approaching
>> basic web page services: people come in, visit, and exit while leaving a
>> minimal trace.
>> Builders on the other hand, have special login names that give them the
>> capability to build
>> and load assets (possible with groups?).
>>
>> -p
>>
>> --
>> Paul Fishwick, PhD
>> Professor
>> University of Florida
>> CISE Department, CSE 301
>> Gainesville, FL 32611
>> Email: [hidden email]
>> Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>

--
View this message in context: http://n2.nabble.com/the-concept-of-visitor-tp4501558p4503667.html
Sent from the opensim-users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
_______________________________________________



--
John Mieske / Sonya Pencuca
http://johnmieske.org
Space Grid Station
"Religion - The art of killing people to prove who's imaginary friend is better."

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Re: the concept of "visitor"

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by John Mieske
Truth is, did my time in years. the Prof is right is adds to a mysql cluster
The reasion it matters is nothing it ever aculy gone from the master DB, every block every textuer is allways added to the master db
There is no infinty and i know what happens when you hit the wall with mysql
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Re: the concept of "visitor"

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by Paul Fishwick
core is not the way to fix it. It allready is if your clever. :)
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Re: the concept of "visitor"

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by Paul Fishwick
I said my words but Opensim is made to adj. Mabey your wish can be done but you dident ask it
The core is fine :)
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Re: the concept of "visitor"

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by John Mieske
thats a matter of admins and hard to say who is a guest or know's it all. The real thought is lets get on with it, no one realy knows yet. I would have no problems if thay were just looken or if thay like our art. bending core is not the issue. You have placed a foot in a place that came from many minds  sitting around one day saying ..'i think i can do that'. to bend it after is wishing.
Visitor/user/guest .. desides what that like , that coice is offered in good will , its the best we have and taken what most know to places never done b4.
Can we do it. YEP! should we?
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Re: the concept of "visitor"

Karen_Palen
In reply to this post by Paul Fishwick
I too suspect that there is a need for a tool to clean out the "kruft"!

I dumped my sim out to four OAR files and several IAR files then reloaded them into a new MySQL database. The DB went from 1.3Gb to 220Mb! About 90% of that was in the "asset" section.

at the moment I am unsure just how much of the "kruft" was due to system glitches and bad loads of experimental OAR files, but clearly there is a need to clean up the leftovers from such experiments!

To judge by the Second Life experience, we will never be entirely free of system glitches that leave "orphan" assets. The only real question is when they become significant enough to clean up!

It would seem that an experimental sim like mine would naturally accumulate more "kruft", but at the same time it is much easier to rebuild the database on such a sim! I shudder to think at the effort that would be involved in rebuilding the huge Second Life database!

Karen

--- On Tue, 2/2/10, Paul Fishwick <[hidden email]> wrote:

> From: Paul Fishwick <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] the concept of "visitor"
> To: [hidden email]
> Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010, 1:56 PM
> Good suggestions. I have someone
> working on an opensim SQL toolkit and
> it probably could
> be adapted in that way. The toolkit will also include the
> option to do a
> db cleaning, deleting
> users, deleting regions, showing specific stats, etc.
>
> The separate db for the timelimit is an interesting
> idea  -- that would
> certainly clean the slate,
> say, every 24 hours.
>
> @Master_Mirage: the kruft ... it isn't clear to me how much
> there is yet
> but I do know that our
> database has grown at a significant rate that does not
> appear to be
> commensurate with the added
> assets and prims that we have put into it. Still needs some
> analysis to
> know exactly what is going
> on. Once the SQL tool has been developed, we should have
> results of this
> analysis.
>
> p
>
> John Mieske wrote:
> > why not add a PHP file that does this all for you
> ?  Example : They
> > click a button that says Visitor John. It gives them a
> temp user and
> > PW with full instructions to their e-mail. They log
> in. Now the timer
> > on the PHP can delete the temp user and PW after 24
> hours. You can
> > even have a php that refreshes every hour that checks
> the database and
> > removes the temp users that has no need to be there.
> Make sure you
> > create a seperate database for the time limit so that
> it wont have to
> > be added to the MAIN SQL database. If the "extra" SQL
> databse has the
> > name and user's time stamp ready for deletion then it
> removes it from
> > the MAIN database for the name and PW and then goes
> back to the temp
> > and removes it there too. So two databases with name
> and PW to show
> > which is fake.
> >
> > This can be done in many ways. Just a thought.
> >
> > John Mieske / Sonya Penucca
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Paul Fishwick <[hidden email]
>
> > <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> wrote:
> >
> >     I would like to open up one of
> our worlds to the general public by
> >     allowing people
> >     to log in as visitors. This is
> related to the "anonymous login"
> >     and has
> >     been discussed
> >     in various forms, but here is
> the concept - not sure if anything
> >     exists
> >     yet in trunk to
> >     support this:
> >
> >     1. A user logs in using
> whatever name they want. If authentication is
> >     turned off, this is
> >       no problem. However,
> what would be ideal is that when the user logs
> >     off, any trace
> >       of them is removed from
> the database-- they do not persist.
> >
> >     2. When the user logs in, they
> have access to the Library part of the
> >     inventory, but are
> >        unable to load any assets
> to the server, thus they would have
> >     nothing under "My Inventory"
> >        or be able to copy items
> from the Library or the world into My
> >     Inventory. The Library
> >        would contain all
> necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
> >     that they require
> >        in the space).
> >
> >     3. The user cannot build on
> the island but can run scripts and
> >     navigate
> >     performing full
> >        interaction.
> >
> >     #1 is not a huge issue since I
> would imagine that the incremental
> >     space
> >     allocation for
> >     users just means additional
> rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
> >     take up too much
> >     room. #2 is a bigger problem -
> visitors should not be taxing the asset
> >     server. #3
> >     can be handled by unchecking
> both boxes next to Create Objects in
> >     About
> >     Land->Options.
> >
> >     Are either #1 or #2 possible?
> They would seem to be a prerequisite for
> >     something approaching
> >     basic web page services:
> people come in, visit, and exit while
> >     leaving a
> >     minimal trace.
> >     Builders on the other hand,
> have special login names that give
> >     them the
> >     capability to build
> >     and load assets (possible with
> groups?).
> >
> >     -p
> >
> >     --
> >     Paul Fishwick, PhD
> >     Professor
> >     University of Florida
> >     CISE Department, CSE 301
> >     Gainesville, FL 32611
> >     Email: [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> >     Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
> >     <http://www.cise.ufl.edu/%7Efishwick>
> >
> > 
>    _______________________________________________
> >     Opensim-users mailing list
> >     [hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
> >     https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >   
>
>
> --
> Paul Fishwick, PhD
> Professor
> University of Florida
> CISE Department, CSE 301
> Gainesville, FL 32611
> Email: [hidden email]
> Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>


     
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Re: the concept of "visitor"

justincc
In reply to this post by Paul Fishwick
Paul Fishwick wrote:

> I would like to open up one of our worlds to the general public by
> allowing people
> to log in as visitors. This is related to the "anonymous login" and has
> been discussed
> in various forms, but here is the concept - not sure if anything exists
> yet in trunk to
> support this:
>
> 1. A user logs in using whatever name they want. If authentication is
> turned off, this is
>    no problem. However, what would be ideal is that when the user logs
> off, any trace
>    of them is removed from the database-- they do not persist.
>
> 2. When the user logs in, they have access to the Library part of the
> inventory, but are
>     unable to load any assets to the server, thus they would have
> nothing under "My Inventory"
>     or be able to copy items from the Library or the world into My
> Inventory. The Library
>     would contain all necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
> that they require
>     in the space).
>
> 3. The user cannot build on the island but can run scripts and navigate
> performing full
>     interaction.
>
> #1 is not a huge issue since I would imagine that the incremental space
> allocation for
> users just means additional rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
> take up too much
> room. #2 is a bigger problem - visitors should not be taxing the asset
> server. #3
> can be handled by unchecking both boxes next to Create Objects in About
> Land->Options.

For #2, preventing the user from creating new things directly in their inventory is possible but
messy.  For instance, some time ago I put a setting in OpenSim.ini which stops people being able to
create scripts in their inventory as a security measure (search for allowed_script_creators).  It's
messy because the user still has the option in their client menu - it's just that it now doesn't do
anything.

In principle this option could be extended to all inventory item creation.  As you say, there are
already ways of sealing up #3 and #1 isn't such a huge issue, for a standalone I'm sure it would be
possible to divert guests to a pure in-memory user record representation with a bit of work which
would mean they never get an entry in the db.  An issue here though is that no authentication allows
anybody to log in as anyone, which is awkward if you have 'non-guest' users.

>
> Are either #1 or #2 possible? They would seem to be a prerequisite for
> something approaching
> basic web page services: people come in, visit, and exit while leaving a
> minimal trace.
> Builders on the other hand, have special login names that give them the
> capability to build
> and load assets (possible with groups?).
>
> -p
>


--
Justin Clark-Casey (justincc)
http://justincc.org
http://twitter.com/justincc
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Re: the concept of "visitor"

Bill Nickels
In reply to this post by Karen_Palen
Karen Palen wrote:

> I too suspect that there is a need for a tool to clean out the "kruft"!
>
> I dumped my sim out to four OAR files and several IAR files then reloaded them into a new MySQL database. The DB went from 1.3Gb to 220Mb! About 90% of that was in the "asset" section.
>
> at the moment I am unsure just how much of the "kruft" was due to system glitches and bad loads of experimental OAR files, but clearly there is a need to clean up the leftovers from such experiments!
>
> To judge by the Second Life experience, we will never be entirely free of system glitches that leave "orphan" assets. The only real question is when they become significant enough to clean up!
>
> It would seem that an experimental sim like mine would naturally accumulate more "kruft", but at the same time it is much easier to rebuild the database on such a sim! I shudder to think at the effort that would be involved in rebuilding the huge Second Life database!
>
> Karen
>
> --- On Tue, 2/2/10, Paul Fishwick<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>
>    
>> From: Paul Fishwick<[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] the concept of "visitor"
>> To: [hidden email]
>> Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010, 1:56 PM
>> Good suggestions. I have someone
>> working on an opensim SQL toolkit and
>> it probably could
>> be adapted in that way. The toolkit will also include the
>> option to do a
>> db cleaning, deleting
>> users, deleting regions, showing specific stats, etc.
>>
>> The separate db for the timelimit is an interesting
>> idea  -- that would
>> certainly clean the slate,
>> say, every 24 hours.
>>
>> @Master_Mirage: the kruft ... it isn't clear to me how much
>> there is yet
>> but I do know that our
>> database has grown at a significant rate that does not
>> appear to be
>> commensurate with the added
>> assets and prims that we have put into it. Still needs some
>> analysis to
>> know exactly what is going
>> on. Once the SQL tool has been developed, we should have
>> results of this
>> analysis.
>>
>> p
>>
>> John Mieske wrote:
>>      
>>> why not add a PHP file that does this all for you
>>>        
>> ?  Example : They
>>      
>>> click a button that says Visitor John. It gives them a
>>>        
>> temp user and
>>      
>>> PW with full instructions to their e-mail. They log
>>>        
>> in. Now the timer
>>      
>>> on the PHP can delete the temp user and PW after 24
>>>        
>> hours. You can
>>      
>>> even have a php that refreshes every hour that checks
>>>        
>> the database and
>>      
>>> removes the temp users that has no need to be there.
>>>        
>> Make sure you
>>      
>>> create a seperate database for the time limit so that
>>>        
>> it wont have to
>>      
>>> be added to the MAIN SQL database. If the "extra" SQL
>>>        
>> databse has the
>>      
>>> name and user's time stamp ready for deletion then it
>>>        
>> removes it from
>>      
>>> the MAIN database for the name and PW and then goes
>>>        
>> back to the temp
>>      
>>> and removes it there too. So two databases with name
>>>        
>> and PW to show
>>      
>>> which is fake.
>>>
>>> This can be done in many ways. Just a thought.
>>>
>>> John Mieske / Sonya Penucca
>>>
>>> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Paul Fishwick<[hidden email]
>>>        
>>      
>>> <mailto:[hidden email]>>
>>>        
>> wrote:
>>      
>>>       I would like to open up one of
>>>        
>> our worlds to the general public by
>>      
>>>       allowing people
>>>       to log in as visitors. This is
>>>        
>> related to the "anonymous login"
>>      
>>>       and has
>>>       been discussed
>>>       in various forms, but here is
>>>        
>> the concept - not sure if anything
>>      
>>>       exists
>>>       yet in trunk to
>>>       support this:
>>>
>>>       1. A user logs in using
>>>        
>> whatever name they want. If authentication is
>>      
>>>       turned off, this is
>>>         no problem. However,
>>>        
>> what would be ideal is that when the user logs
>>      
>>>       off, any trace
>>>         of them is removed from
>>>        
>> the database-- they do not persist.
>>      
>>>       2. When the user logs in, they
>>>        
>> have access to the Library part of the
>>      
>>>       inventory, but are
>>>          unable to load any assets
>>>        
>> to the server, thus they would have
>>      
>>>       nothing under "My Inventory"
>>>          or be able to copy items
>>>        
>> from the Library or the world into My
>>      
>>>       Inventory. The Library
>>>          would contain all
>>>        
>> necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
>>      
>>>       that they require
>>>          in the space).
>>>
>>>       3. The user cannot build on
>>>        
>> the island but can run scripts and
>>      
>>>       navigate
>>>       performing full
>>>          interaction.
>>>
>>>       #1 is not a huge issue since I
>>>        
>> would imagine that the incremental
>>      
>>>       space
>>>       allocation for
>>>       users just means additional
>>>        
>> rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
>>      
>>>       take up too much
>>>       room. #2 is a bigger problem -
>>>        
>> visitors should not be taxing the asset
>>      
>>>       server. #3
>>>       can be handled by unchecking
>>>        
>> both boxes next to Create Objects in
>>      
>>>       About
>>>       Land->Options.
>>>
>>>       Are either #1 or #2 possible?
>>>        
>> They would seem to be a prerequisite for
>>      
>>>       something approaching
>>>       basic web page services:
>>>        
>> people come in, visit, and exit while
>>      
>>>       leaving a
>>>       minimal trace.
>>>       Builders on the other hand,
>>>        
>> have special login names that give
>>      
>>>       them the
>>>       capability to build
>>>       and load assets (possible with
>>>        
>> groups?).
>>      
>>>       -p
>>>
>>>       --
>>>       Paul Fishwick, PhD
>>>       Professor
>>>       University of Florida
>>>       CISE Department, CSE 301
>>>       Gainesville, FL 32611
>>>       Email: [hidden email]
>>>        
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>      
>>>       Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>>>       <http://www.cise.ufl.edu/%7Efishwick>
>>>
>>>
>>>        
>>     _______________________________________________
>>      
>>>       Opensim-users mailing list
>>>       [hidden email]
>>>        
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>      
>>>       https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>        
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>      
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Opensim-users mailing list
>>> [hidden email]
>>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>>
>>>        
>>
>> --
>> Paul Fishwick, PhD
>> Professor
>> University of Florida
>> CISE Department, CSE 301
>> Gainesville, FL 32611
>> Email: [hidden email]
>> Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Opensim-users mailing list
>> [hidden email]
>> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>>
>>      
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
>    
A couple of weeks ago the list was abuzz with submissions about banning
and managing the ban. The procedures outlined in the visitor concept
could be used very effectively to qualify new users. The 24 hour test
period could be used for emails and such to qualify a user and in this
case a combination of MAC and IP logging could be compared for each log
on during the visit period.

This could be one proactive approach to getting better users ahead of time.

Just a thought.

Bill

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Re: the concept of "visitor"

Bob Wellman
In reply to this post by Karen_Palen
Hi
 
We over at PMgrid have been worried about asset bloat too for quite some time.
 
So...
 
We created a web based php tool to analyse asset usage and to archive redundant assets. You would be amazed at what a large % of assets are redundant in even a small grid such as ours.
 
We also created a tool to analyse assets to identify and rationalise duplicate assets. 
 
We also created a few other tools to make managing or investigating the Opensim database easier for grid operators (i.e. ourselves) and some tools to enable ordinary users access via the website to thier own avatars details such as thier profile data, thier friends list, clothes worn,  attachments worn, inventory and regions owned.
 
At the London Meetup last Sunday some of the people there were kind enough to suggest this may be of interest to other grid operators. So I thought I would post this to see if interest really exists.
 
These tools were created for our own use. Our tool set is not (yet) packaged in a way that can be passed to others for thier use. We are thinking of maybe doing that later this year and giving it as open source to the community. We dont have expertise in packaging stuff up for Open Source so if we do this we will have to ask for guidance/help from someone who does.
 
However that time scale may be delayed. Very large changes to the Opensim database are imminent, due to work on the work being done by Diva and Melanie, which will probably break our tool. So we will wait until they are in and we can bring our tool up to the new database level (no idea how long that will take to do and test) before even attempting packaging a MK1 version. No point in delivering something that is out of date on the day after delivery.
 
In the meantime, we may considering setting up a demo of it on a test version of PMgrid for people to take a look at how it works, if there is enough interest in the idea. If you are interested please email me [hidden email] and I will tell you more about what we have written.
 
Regards... Bob Wellman and Peetr Maynard over at PMgrid
 
> Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2010 14:22:53 -0800

> From: [hidden email]
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] the concept of "visitor"
>
> I too suspect that there is a need for a tool to clean out the "kruft"!
>
> I dumped my sim out to four OAR files and several IAR files then reloaded them into a new MySQL database. The DB went from 1.3Gb to 220Mb! About 90% of that was in the "asset" section.
>
> at the moment I am unsure just how much of the "kruft" was due to system glitches and bad loads of experimental OAR files, but clearly there is a need to clean up the leftovers from such experiments!
>
> To judge by the Second Life experience, we will never be entirely free of system glitches that leave "orphan" assets. The only real question is when they become significant enough to clean up!
>
> It would seem that an experimental sim like mine would naturally accumulate more "kruft", but at the same time it is much easier to rebuild the database on such a sim! I shudder to think at the effort that would be involved in rebuilding the huge Second Life database!
>
> Karen
>
> --- On Tue, 2/2/10, Paul Fishwick <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> > From: Paul Fishwick <[hidden email]>
> > Subject: Re: [Opensim-users] the concept of "visitor"
> > To: [hidden email]
> > Date: Tuesday, February 2, 2010, 1:56 PM
> > Good suggestions. I have someone
> > working on an opensim SQL toolkit and
> > it probably could
> > be adapted in that way. The toolkit will also include the
> > option to do a
> > db cleaning, deleting
> > users, deleting regions, showing specific stats, etc.
> >
> > The separate db for the timelimit is an interesting
> > idea  -- that would
> > certainly clean the slate,
> > say, every 24 hours.
> >
> > @Master_Mirage: the kruft ... it isn't clear to me how much
> > there is yet
> > but I do know that our
> > database has grown at a significant rate that does not
> > appear to be
> > commensurate with the added
> > assets and prims that we have put into it. Still needs some
> > analysis to
> > know exactly what is going
> > on. Once the SQL tool has been developed, we should have
> > results of this
> > analysis.
> >
> > p
> >
> > John Mieske wrote:
> > > why not add a PHP file that does this all for you
> > ?  Example : They
> > > click a button that says Visitor John. It gives them a
> > temp user and
> > > PW with full instructions to their e-mail. They log
> > in. Now the timer
> > > on the PHP can delete the temp user and PW after 24
> > hours. You can
> > > even have a php that refreshes every hour that checks
> > the database and
> > > removes the temp users that has no need to be there.
> > Make sure you
> > > create a seperate database for the time limit so that
> > it wont have to
> > > be added to the MAIN SQL database. If the "extra" SQL
> > databse has the
> > > name and user's time stamp ready for deletion then it
> > removes it from
> > > the MAIN database for the name and PW and then goes
> > back to the temp
> > > and removes it there too. So two databases with name
> > and PW to show
> > > which is fake.
> > >
> > > This can be done in many ways. Just a thought.
> > >
> > > John Mieske / Sonya Penucca
> > >
> > > On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Paul Fishwick <[hidden email]
> >
> > > <mailto:[hidden email]>>
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >     I would like to open up one of
> > our worlds to the general public by
> > >     allowing people
> > >     to log in as visitors. This is
> > related to the "anonymous login"
> > >     and has
> > >     been discussed
> > >     in various forms, but here is
> > the concept - not sure if anything
> > >     exists
> > >     yet in trunk to
> > >     support this:
> > >
> > >     1. A user logs in using
> > whatever name they want. If authentication is
> > >     turned off, this is
> > >       no problem. However,
> > what would be ideal is that when the user logs
> > >     off, any trace
> > >       of them is removed from
> > the database-- they do not persist.
> > >
> > >     2. When the user logs in, they
> > have access to the Library part of the
> > >     inventory, but are
> > >        unable to load any assets
> > to the server, thus they would have
> > >     nothing under "My Inventory"
> > >        or be able to copy items
> > from the Library or the world into My
> > >     Inventory. The Library
> > >        would contain all
> > necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
> > >     that they require
> > >        in the space).
> > >
> > >     3. The user cannot build on
> > the island but can run scripts and
> > >     navigate
> > >     performing full
> > >        interaction.
> > >
> > >     #1 is not a huge issue since I
> > would imagine that the incremental
> > >     space
> > >     allocation for
> > >     users just means additional
> > rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
> > >     take up too much
> > >     room. #2 is a bigger problem -
> > visitors should not be taxing the asset
> > >     server. #3
> > >     can be handled by unchecking
> > both boxes next to Create Objects in
> > >     About
> > >     Land->Options.
> > >
> > >     Are either #1 or #2 possible?
> > They would seem to be a prerequisite for
> > >     something approaching
> > >     basic web page services:
> > people come in, visit, and exit while
> > >     leaving a
> > >     minimal trace.
> > >     Builders on the other hand,
> > have special login names that give
> > >     them the
> > >     capability to build
> > >     and load assets (possible with
> > groups?).
> > >
> > >     -p
> > >
> > >     --
> > >     Paul Fishwick, PhD
> > >     Professor
> > >     University of Florida
> > >     CISE Department, CSE 301
> > >     Gainesville, FL 32611
> > >     Email: [hidden email]
> > <mailto:[hidden email]>
> > >     Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
> > >     <http://www.cise.ufl.edu/%7Efishwick>
> > >
> > > 
> >    _______________________________________________
> > >     Opensim-users mailing list
> > >     [hidden email]
> > <mailto:[hidden email]>
> > >     https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Opensim-users mailing list
> > > [hidden email]
> > > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> > >   
> >
> >
> > --
> > Paul Fishwick, PhD
> > Professor
> > University of Florida
> > CISE Department, CSE 301
> > Gainesville, FL 32611
> > Email: [hidden email]
> > Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Opensim-users mailing list
> > [hidden email]
> > https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
> >
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users



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Re: the concept of "visitor"

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by Paul Fishwick
did a bit of test as to footprint KRUFT left over assuming alot on there part.
At wire speed and with the best stuff and the theroy of exp.
Best/worst case say 24hr .. comes out around 750meg of junk. Most of the tools are actauly good and try to reuse alot. I forone would say the junk in our db is still of no issue. Footprint is so small given 24hrs that it realy doent matter. If i took it to a point of 1 or 2k visitors a day it could ad up but over all. ill stick with what i see and it is so small of an impact, id be happy ppl come and look test drive it.
I really dont see this as an issue.
Paul Fishwick wrote
I would like to open up one of our worlds to the general public by
allowing people
to log in as visitors. This is related to the "anonymous login" and has
been discussed
in various forms, but here is the concept - not sure if anything exists
yet in trunk to
support this:

1. A user logs in using whatever name they want. If authentication is
turned off, this is
   no problem. However, what would be ideal is that when the user logs
off, any trace
   of them is removed from the database-- they do not persist.

2. When the user logs in, they have access to the Library part of the
inventory, but are
    unable to load any assets to the server, thus they would have
nothing under "My Inventory"
    or be able to copy items from the Library or the world into My
Inventory. The Library
    would contain all necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
that they require
    in the space).

3. The user cannot build on the island but can run scripts and navigate
performing full
    interaction.

#1 is not a huge issue since I would imagine that the incremental space
allocation for
users just means additional rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
take up too much
room. #2 is a bigger problem - visitors should not be taxing the asset
server. #3
can be handled by unchecking both boxes next to Create Objects in About
Land->Options.

Are either #1 or #2 possible? They would seem to be a prerequisite for
something approaching
basic web page services: people come in, visit, and exit while leaving a
minimal trace.
Builders on the other hand, have special login names that give them the
capability to build
and load assets (possible with groups?).

-p

--
Paul Fishwick, PhD
Professor
University of Florida
CISE Department, CSE 301
Gainesville, FL 32611
Email: fishwick@cise.ufl.edu
Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick

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Re: the concept of "visitor"

Master_Mirage
In reply to this post by Master_Mirage
It can and works well . the front end directly overides it. it has direct and can rewrite the data base opensim uses. thats the cool part. Core code is mnt tobe a hub to that. Its met tobe as flexable as it can be. Its is what core devs want.. and there right! It has not been set in stone to limit you. it ment to allow you to addon. Complex as the need or demand 100% can in the way core dev works.
Take a look at what part mantis is, all the patches and flat out 'fix it' works!
Rember Opesim came from ppl sitting around one day in sl saying "i bet we can do that too!"
And thats exactly what it is. If you got a good idea then lets try it!
Master_Mirage wrote
correct! and in the grand thought of this. Not everthing is CORE.. thats the point and the cool part. CORE Opensimulator is that. it is flexable and complex. Id bet my last dime on kick ass stuff ppl will make from the core!. Its made to be that and as complex as it is. It has tobe flexable to matter at all :)
John Mieske wrote
why not add a PHP file that does this all for you ?  Example : They click a
button that says Visitor John. It gives them a temp user and PW with full
instructions to their e-mail. They log in. Now the timer on the PHP can
delete the temp user and PW after 24 hours. You can even have a php that
refreshes every hour that checks the database and removes the temp users
that has no need to be there. Make sure you create a seperate database for
the time limit so that it wont have to be added to the MAIN SQL database. If
the "extra" SQL databse has the name and user's time stamp ready for
deletion then it removes it from the MAIN database for the name and PW and
then goes back to the temp and removes it there too. So two databases with
name and PW to show which is fake.

This can be done in many ways. Just a thought.

John Mieske / Sonya Penucca

On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Paul Fishwick <fishwick@cise.ufl.edu>wrote:

> I would like to open up one of our worlds to the general public by
> allowing people
> to log in as visitors. This is related to the "anonymous login" and has
> been discussed
> in various forms, but here is the concept - not sure if anything exists
> yet in trunk to
> support this:
>
> 1. A user logs in using whatever name they want. If authentication is
> turned off, this is
>   no problem. However, what would be ideal is that when the user logs
> off, any trace
>   of them is removed from the database-- they do not persist.
>
> 2. When the user logs in, they have access to the Library part of the
> inventory, but are
>    unable to load any assets to the server, thus they would have
> nothing under "My Inventory"
>    or be able to copy items from the Library or the world into My
> Inventory. The Library
>    would contain all necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
> that they require
>    in the space).
>
> 3. The user cannot build on the island but can run scripts and navigate
> performing full
>    interaction.
>
> #1 is not a huge issue since I would imagine that the incremental space
> allocation for
> users just means additional rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
> take up too much
> room. #2 is a bigger problem - visitors should not be taxing the asset
> server. #3
> can be handled by unchecking both boxes next to Create Objects in About
> Land->Options.
>
> Are either #1 or #2 possible? They would seem to be a prerequisite for
> something approaching
> basic web page services: people come in, visit, and exit while leaving a
> minimal trace.
> Builders on the other hand, have special login names that give them the
> capability to build
> and load assets (possible with groups?).
>
> -p
>
> --
> Paul Fishwick, PhD
> Professor
> University of Florida
> CISE Department, CSE 301
> Gainesville, FL 32611
> Email: fishwick@cise.ufl.edu
> Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> Opensim-users@lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>

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Re: the concept of "visitor"

Toni Alatalo
In reply to this post by John Mieske
John Mieske kirjoitti:
> why not add a PHP file that does this all for you ?  Example : They
> click a button that says Visitor John. It gives them a temp user and
> PW with full instructions to their e-mail. They log in. Now the timer
> on the PHP can delete the temp user and PW after 24 hours. You

BTW I happened to do independently a first very simple implementation of
this on Monday, but integrated to the Naali viewer so that visitor /
anon login to a preconfigured world is just click of a single button -
no need to know anything about usernames or passwords or servers or
anything. Was fun to see this discussion here after had implemented it :)

That works by the button handler in viewer fetching a temp / anon
account with http, and logging in with that. It works in trunk now (also
on linux) and is released hopefully later today in Naali 0.1 rc1 so you
can test, the sources are in our google code repo -- i can give the
direct pointers if someone is curious.

The target demo server is just a standalone with auth off with no other
usage, so can be reseted if there becomes cruft etc. We are certainly
interested in this more advanced solutions that have been outlined here,
where could mix actual authenticated and such visitor accounts in the
same worlds well enough.

~Toni

> can even have a php that refreshes every hour that checks the database
> and removes the temp users that has no need to be there. Make sure you
> create a seperate database for the time limit so that it wont have to
> be added to the MAIN SQL database. If the "extra" SQL databse has the
> name and user's time stamp ready for deletion then it removes it from
> the MAIN database for the name and PW and then goes back to the temp
> and removes it there too. So two databases with name and PW to show
> which is fake.
>
> This can be done in many ways. Just a thought.
>
> John Mieske / Sonya Penucca
>
> On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Paul Fishwick <[hidden email]
> <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     I would like to open up one of our worlds to the general public by
>     allowing people
>     to log in as visitors. This is related to the "anonymous login"
>     and has
>     been discussed
>     in various forms, but here is the concept - not sure if anything
>     exists
>     yet in trunk to
>     support this:
>
>     1. A user logs in using whatever name they want. If authentication is
>     turned off, this is
>       no problem. However, what would be ideal is that when the user logs
>     off, any trace
>       of them is removed from the database-- they do not persist.
>
>     2. When the user logs in, they have access to the Library part of the
>     inventory, but are
>        unable to load any assets to the server, thus they would have
>     nothing under "My Inventory"
>        or be able to copy items from the Library or the world into My
>     Inventory. The Library
>        would contain all necessities (clothing, basic objects and scripts
>     that they require
>        in the space).
>
>     3. The user cannot build on the island but can run scripts and
>     navigate
>     performing full
>        interaction.
>
>     #1 is not a huge issue since I would imagine that the incremental
>     space
>     allocation for
>     users just means additional rows in the user/agent tables -- shouldn't
>     take up too much
>     room. #2 is a bigger problem - visitors should not be taxing the asset
>     server. #3
>     can be handled by unchecking both boxes next to Create Objects in
>     About
>     Land->Options.
>
>     Are either #1 or #2 possible? They would seem to be a prerequisite for
>     something approaching
>     basic web page services: people come in, visit, and exit while
>     leaving a
>     minimal trace.
>     Builders on the other hand, have special login names that give
>     them the
>     capability to build
>     and load assets (possible with groups?).
>
>     -p
>
>     --
>     Paul Fishwick, PhD
>     Professor
>     University of Florida
>     CISE Department, CSE 301
>     Gainesville, FL 32611
>     Email: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     Web: http://www.cise.ufl.edu/~fishwick
>     <http://www.cise.ufl.edu/%7Efishwick>
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Opensim-users mailing list
>     [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
>     https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Opensim-users mailing list
> [hidden email]
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-users
>  

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